Nothing to something

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Freddy:
There is only one cycle.
If it is so then the current cycle is the first cycle.
That’s like me introducing my partner: ‘And this is Carol, my first wife’.
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Freddy:
There cannot have been a first.
That is not correct.
The universe is part of the cycle not a cycle in itself. There is no first. There is no ‘before’ as time begins again just like it did at the big bang. It’s nonsensical to ask what was ‘before’ the big bang.
You use again which mean that there are cycles.
Saying ‘That is not correct’ is the crux of the problem here. You need to say: ‘On the assumption that that is not correct…’ and then go on to the points younwant to make. Neither of us knows if it is correct or not. Even Penrose, who formulated the concept, doesn’t know. But it’s possible that it’s correct and you need to accept that.

And each universe is termed an ‘aeon’ by Penrose so people don’t get confused by calling them ‘cycles’.
 
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Freddy:
Time measures that rate of change.
The passing of time is inexorable. And when someone asks what is the time? Not many people will say that the measurement of the rate of change is now 2: 15 PM.
How do you know time is passing? Give me any example and it will entail change. If there is no change then time will have stopped. Or rather ceased to exist.
 
If there is no change then time will have stopped. Or rather ceased to exist.
That is called “stasis”. Inside a black hole, or within the Schwarzschild radius. Or within a singularity. Time is not an independent variable. It is part of the STEM. That is why to ask “what happened before the Big Bang?” is a meaningless word salad. And there is no “salad dressing” to make it “edible”.
 
Act of creation is about a change. Any change requires time. Time is an element of creation. Therefore, time is needed in order to create time. This is regress. Regress is impossible. Therefore, the act of creation is impossible.
I see… well, I believe the only way around the clearly absurd conclusion is by invoking an atemporal entity to resolve such conflict (as many already have, I believe). Not in the sense that an atemporal being acted temporally in creating time (such as, there is no time, and then there is time. For that would very obviously fall into the regress that you described), but rather, that an atemporal being eternally willed for temporality (as any being outside of time would, if will something, will eternally). That is not to say that time is eternal (in the sense that time stretches back infinitely without beginning), but rather, that the framework of our temporal universe is eternal (in the same way that a chest may be of one nature - perhaps hard - whilst its contents be of another - perhaps soft - without conflict). By that, it seems to me that it can explain a seeming beginning of time within the framework, whilst the framework itself never needs to fall necessarily into the same nature.

That be so, time itself didn’t come into existence, really, but it was always in existence, because an atemporal being willed it eternally into existence. Simply on the basis of its eternity, however, does not exonerate it of a contingent nature. For if it is eternally existent due not to itself but by a non-temporal being, then it is eternally dependent on the non-temporal being (the same way that the fire of a camp is always dependent on the wood that fuels it inspite of their equal length in “hot” existence. It would be fallacious to deduce that on equality of a given type (timely) there need not be a nature of dependence in their relationship).
 
Other (equivalent) standards are possible.
For example? How do you know whether or not the frequency of oscillations of a given atom may not change sometime in the future. Further, time may be measured by the frequency of oscillations of an atom, but that does not tell us anything about the nature of time and why it always moves forward.
Suppose that the number of oscillations of a standard has decreased because of some chaotic event. Would that mean that everyone will live longer and that a day on earth would no longer be 24 hours?
 
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Here is the argument for time is needed for any change:
We’ve rebutted that ‘argument’ time and again.

But, if you need to hear it one more time…
Consider a change in a system, A to B. A and B cannot lay at the same point therefore they are at different points belonging to a variable.
“A” is outside the system.
Moreover, there should be a duration for reaching from the first point to the second point otherwise the change never takes place.
‘Duration’ implies temporal framework. There is no temporal framework outside the system.
Therefore a variable needed for the motion to occur. We call this variable time.
Inside the system? That is, within the context of the universe? Sure. But not outside it, which is what you’re attempting to claim.
That’s like me introducing my partner: ‘And this is Carol, my first wife’.
🤣
Well… you could, but if you did, I wouldn’t expect dinner tonight…
🤣
That is called “stasis”. Inside a black hole
My impression was that it slows (asymptotically) to nearly a stop, but not precisely so. No?
For example? How do you know whether or not the frequency of oscillations of a given atom may not change sometime in the future.
Then the standard changes, if such an event might occur. Short of that, though, the standard holds.
Suppose that the number of oscillations of a standard has decreased because of some chaotic event. Would that mean that everyone will live longer and that a day on earth would no longer be 24 hours?
Non sequitur, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I’ll take a hard pass on that tangent, thank you very much! 😉
 
Saying ‘That is not correct’ is the crux of the problem here. You need to say: ‘On the assumption that that is not correct…’ and then go on to the points younwant to make. Neither of us knows if it is correct or not. Even Penrose, who formulated the concept, doesn’t know. But it’s possible that it’s correct and you need to accept that.

And each universe is termed an ‘aeon’ by Penrose so people don’t get confused by calling them ‘cycles’
I don’t understand you. You are talking about each universe yet denying existing time within them.
 
I see… well, I believe the only way around the clearly absurd conclusion is by invoking an atemporal entity to resolve such conflict (as many already have, I believe). Not in the sense that an atemporal being acted temporally in creating time (such as, there is no time, and then there is time. For that would very obviously fall into the regress that you described), but rather, that an atemporal being eternally willed for temporality (as any being outside of time would, if will something, will eternally). That is not to say that time is eternal (in the sense that time stretches back infinitely without beginning), but rather, that the framework of our temporal universe is eternal (in the same way that a chest may be of one nature - perhaps hard - whilst its contents be of another - perhaps soft - without conflict). By that, it seems to me that it can explain a seeming beginning of time within the framework, whilst the framework itself never needs to fall necessarily into the same nature.

That be so, time itself didn’t come into existence, really, but it was always in existence, because an atemporal being willed it eternally into existence. Simply on the basis of its eternity, however, does not exonerate it of a contingent nature. For if it is eternally existent due not to itself but by a non-temporal being, then it is eternally dependent on the non-temporal being (the same way that the fire of a camp is always dependent on the wood that fuels it inspite of their equal length in “hot” existence. It would be fallacious to deduce that on equality of a given type (timely) there need not be a nature of dependence in their relationship).
I am afraid that an atemporal being cannot resolve the problem since I am not talking about act but the result of act.
 
“A” is outside the system.
No. A is a state of a system when we are talking about universe and is nothing when we are talking about the creation.
‘Duration’ implies temporal framework. There is no temporal framework outside the system.
Duration for going from A to B is necessary otherwise change does not take place.
Inside the system? That is, within the context of the universe? Sure. But not outside it, which is what you’re attempting to claim.
The argument applies to act of creation as well. You just need to change “consider a change in a system” to “consider a change”.
 
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