Noticing alot of opposition to the Tridentine Mass

[Joysong]

E.E.N.S.,

Let it not be assumed that I am against sacred art. In fact, I have a deep love for it. But let’s go back to my “if” for a second and see what I was trying to say.

If art is expected as “I cannot worship unless the embellishments are all present, or I won’t experience devotion” — then we can hope our brothers and sisters might be enlighted by what is essential, as the Church ever seeks to impart in her teachings.

It is to the “must haves” that I addressed my “if.” To those whose faith is on the essentials rather than the accidents, the church may be adorned or simple and it would not excite any disturbance or change in one’s devotion. May I offer a comment by St. Teresa of Avila to demonstrate a bit:

1. But ever since I saw the great beauty of our Lord, I never saw any one who in comparison with Him seemed even endurable, or that could occupy my thoughts. For if I but turn mine eyes inwardly for a moment to the contemplation of the image which I have within me, I find myself so free, that from that instant everything I see is loathsome in comparison with the excellences and graces of which I had a vision in our Lord.

XXXVII ccel.org/ccel/teresa/life.txt

Liberty and freedom to worship the Lord within and without is not solely dependent upon externals for a mature pray-er. Not that we all experience “visions” as did St. Teresa, but a solid faith and a heart of love has its own vision that does not require the “must haves” of aesthetics. I guess that’s all I’m saying, while not discounting the devotion of others who are extremely dependent on ornate externals. Maybe for them, that is a beginning, but it can also be an entrapment, as I noticed in some threads.

May we respect that simplicity in some of our churches is not a heretical deviation from a true norm, but a refocus to what is essentially the sign value, as Pope John Paul II taught in the encyclical.

To each their own, EENS — that’s all I ask.

 

[E.E.N.S]

E.E.N.S.,

Let it not be assumed that I am against sacred art. In fact, I have a deep love for it. But let’s go back to my “if” for a second and see what I was trying to say.

It is to the “must haves” that I addressed my “if.” To those whose faith is on the essentials rather than the accidents, the church may be adorned or simple and it would not excite any disturbance or change in one’s devotion. May I offer a comment by St. Teresa of Avila to demonstrate a bit:

Liberty and freedom to worship the Lord within and without is not solely dependent upon externals for a mature pray-er. Not that we all experience “visions” as did St. Teresa, but a solid faith and a heart of love has its own vision that does not require the “must haves” of aesthetics. I guess that’s all I’m saying, while not discounting the devotion of others who are extremely dependent on ornate externals. Maybe for them, that is a beginning, but it can also be an entrapment, as I noticed in some threads.

May we respect that simplicity in some of our churches is not a heretical deviation from a true norm, but a refocus to what is essentially the sign value, as Pope John Paul II taught in the encyclical.

To each their own, EENS — that’s all I ask.

I realized what you were saying, but I was talking about did not merit that response. I was talking about the typical “TLM’er” being about what is proper, not what they personally needed.

We are butting heads where we need not be.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Michaelangelo was just someone who merely “doodled” and his Sistine Chapel inspires absolutely no one.

I’m being facetious, of course. Religious art impresses children even more than adults. It gives them a graphic of the heavenly personnages and remains with them all their lives.

There are the CORRUPTIBLE images out there to sidetrack the children.

Reigious art imbues us with pure, loving thoughts of our eternal family.

Reigious art is taken out of schools and public buildings and yet, we have some “Catholics” that wouldn’t mind taking it out of our churches. Where are we going with all of this?

 

[BobP123]

Reigious art is taken out of schools and public buildings and yet, we have some “Catholics” that wouldn’t mind taking it out of our churches. Where are we going with all of this?

Read somewhere that post-Vatican II, the Church spent over a billion dollars turning altars around, destroying statues, communion rails, confessionals, stained glass, murals, etc. And this was for what? Preparation to converting them for Muslim mosques eventually? Certainly not for feeding the hungry or caring for the sick.

 

[Aramis]

(Bolding mine)

Gorman,

There are not “conciliar bishops”; there are only bishops.

John

Not quite; there are the SSPX Schismatic bishops, as well… valid but illicit, and some retired bishops who no longer hold conciliar voice… and Auxiliary bishops, who, IIUC, also lack voice in church council.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Read somewhere that post-Vatican II, the Church spent over a billion dollars turning altars around, destroying statues, communion rails, confessionals, stained glass, murals, etc. And this was for what? Preparation to converting them for Muslim mosques eventually? Certainly not for feeding the hungry or caring for the sick.

Very possible it was a step toward a One World Religion.

I have a sense that the Church is going to have a division so wide that it is imperative that we stay in the state of grace; receive Jesus in the Eucharist; pray to the Holy Spirit for Wisdom. Doing all this will be assurance we will know which direction to go.

The Church has become so Protestantized that if you left the Church 10 years ago and returned you would think a Protestant sect bought the building.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

As the above post demonstrates the attitude from the TLM lovers is ultimately what makes people fearful. This post is basically accusing anyone outside of their world as not being Christ centered. I don’t have any problems with the TLM myself, only with the people. With a few exceptions on this forum most TLMers are always accusing the other side of being self-centered or pushing for “innovations”. Heaven for bid if you like a bit of guitar in Mass

If you would read my post in the context I posted it, rather than twist it to fit your agenda, you will notice I brought up a specific example that ONE PERSON said to me.

Please tell me where I said that anyone who disagrees with me doesn’t worship Christ? What I said is that there are people who believe the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is their own personal prayer that they may fashion to fit their own personal worship.

The people who believe the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is nothing more than a personal prayer to be manipulated according to their own whim do not have the mind of Holy Mother Church.

Maybe you find my post offensive because you’re one of those people who want to make the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass you’re own personal prayer.

[Edited by Moderator]

 

[Swiss_Guard]

May we respect that simplicity in some of our churches is not a heretical deviation from a true norm, but a refocus to what is essentially the sign value, as Pope John Paul II taught in the encyclical.

Which encyclical did Pope John Paul II say we should have “simplicity” in our churches? The encyclical you posted was written by Archbishop Marini who is a disciple of Bugnini.

Please post the encyclical where John Paul II called for removing the beauty of sacred art and music from our churches.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

I don’t know the answer on how to stop the carnage, but somehow it has to stop before the Church is totally torn apart.

Peace,

I completely agree. Unfortunately, the enemies of Holy Mother Church, both outside and inside the Church, are very well organized. We, those who want sound doctrine and right worship from Holy Mother Church, are not organized. We can’t seem to agree on much, only that the abuses must end.

Holy Mother Church is already torn apart. My prayer is that Pope Benedict XVI will set things right by reprimanding disobedient bishops and restoring sound doctrine and right worship. This needs to start in the seminaries.

There is hope because I’ve known more than a few seminarians, some who are now priest, and they are all orthodox and obedient to the Holy Father. Let’s keep praying for holy priests.

 

[anamchara]

Please tell me where I said that anyone who disagrees with me doesn’t worship Christ? What I said is that there are people who believe the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is their own personal prayer that they may fashion to fit their own personal worship.

And these people you are talking about seem to grow in numbers each time one of you come on here complaining about them. I have yet to meet anyone who is not centered on Christ in the Mass.

The people who believe the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is nothing more than a personal prayer to be manipulated according to their own whim do not have the mind of Holy Mother Church.

And far to many from your side make the mistake of being the judge as to who these “people” are. This is where the problem is.

Maybe you find my post offensive because you’re one of those people who want to make the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass you’re own personal prayer.

Oh that’s good you’ve added someone else to your list

[Edited by Moderator]

 

[anamchara]

Why? The priest isn’t consecrating the Cross during Mass, he’s consecrating the Bread and Wine which becomes the Body and Blood of Christ.

As long as the Mass has Christ really present in the Eucharist - both in the Tabernacle and on the Altar after the Consecration, I don’t see why it truly matters that there’s a cross or not.

(Although of course I understand the GIRM requirement that a crucifix be present, which it is in the case of your Masses).

Thank you Lily!!

 

[Joysong]

Swiss Guard:

Which encyclical did Pope John Paul II say we should have “simplicity” in our churches? The encyclical you posted was written by Archbishop Marini who is a disciple of Bugnini.

Rather facetious, S.G., to assume the innocence of a dove in asking this question, no? I know where you’re going with this, and I’m not biting.

It’s rather similar to the take-down put on ncjohn yesterday. One doesn’t discuss the content of the message; one sabotages the thread by discussing the “credentials and eminence” of the author who says it. It was disingenuous to say the least, because the poster who discredited the author is an admitted sedevacantist.

Have a nice day.

 

[BobP123]

We can’t seem to agree on much, only that the abuses must end.

From reading many of the posts here, I don’t think we’ve even agreed on what exactly those abuses are. We (individually) just call them abuses because we don’t like them. Some of us actually like them (like liturgical dancing) and would not consider them an abuse.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

wHEN THE lATIN mASS IS INTERWOVEN IN cHURCHES TOGETHER WITH THE nOVUS oRDO IT WILL BE A MATTER OF CHOICE BY INDIVIDUALS.

sOME CAN ATTEND THE lATIN rITE; OHERS CAN THE NOVUS ORDO.

It’s as simple as that. sorry for the Caps lock…in a hurry cannot edit.

 

[E.E.N.S]

(to be continued later…must run for now…)

Sorry, I never finished yesterday, but this is really all that I had planned on adding:

SC62 “In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183)** of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung.** Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.”

---

• I just wanted to point out that the current mind of the Church still tells us that Latin and Gregorian Chant are to be the norm for the Latin Rite Church. (Obviously other music, as well as the vernacular, may be used, but see above quote for their proper use.)

 

[abu_kamoon]

What was the reason for the new mass, anyway? Look at the results. Ordinations down, mass attendance down. Why would anyone defend the new mass?

ابو كمون

 

[laudamus_te]

What was the reason for the new mass, anyway? Look at the results. Ordinations down, mass attendance down. Why would anyone defend the new mass?

ابو كمون

The reason for the New Mass? I think one reason was an attempt to make the Mass more “accessible”, but what it ended up doing was bringing it down to the level of Man, and placing Man in the center of the service. VII actually devalued the role of the priest.

 

[Kristine1957]

Sorry but I’m a convert and I don’t really understand why having Tridentine Mass is making people upset. What difference does it make?

 

[havemercy]

The reason for the New Mass? I think one reason was an attempt to make the Mass more “accessible”, but what it ended up doing was bringing it down to the level of Man, and placing Man in the center of the service. VII actually devalued the role of the priest.

Was it really VII, or perhaps wrongful unpacking of the council?

 

[atenag]

WE KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS - don’t we?
WHY CAN’T WE SOLVE ANY OF THE PROBLEMS?

WHY have CATHOLICS diminished in numbers over the years?

What happened to all the CATHOLIC SCHOOLS of years gone by?

WHY did matrimony decrease significantly while out of wedlock
children increased dramatically?

One thing I have seen is that there are MANY, MANY MORE CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS that have formed in
my lifetime - all offering a different exclusion from the rigidity required by the CATHOLIC RELIGION. We all see the WORLD
as what it is NOW and HOW it has changed in the last 50 years.
For BETTER or for WORSE - it depends on your true FAITH - what you BELIEVE and feel about CHRISTIANITY and whether or
not you can meet the COMMITMENTS that have to be made to
be a member of a SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY.

IF you believe in JESUS CHRIST and LIVE the life that HE has
asked you LIVE - you will be a GOOD CATHOLIC. That is my
answer to RELIGION - If there are certain COMMANDMENTS or
SACRAMENTS that you cannot follow - then you will find a RELIGION that mimics your beliefs.

AL TENAGLIA