Noticing alot of opposition to the Tridentine Mass

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LilyM said:
Thank you! A timely reminder that in some places people DO have to take what they’re given, and with all the faults of the NO, if the TLM is the ONLY Mass available it will definitely be what much less than a majority of Catholics would want.
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So, what you’re saying is Catholics would rather risk the eternal damnation of their souls than go to a Mass that isn’t to their liking? They would rather commit a mortal sin than go to a Mass that isn’t “relevant” to them?

I thought you said the Novus Ordo was focused on God. If people are going to Mass to worship God, why should it bother them if it’s not in a “relevant” language to their liking?

Here I thought only Traditionalists were judgmental and intolerant. I noticed paramedicgirl goes to a Novus Ordo Mass rather than commit a mortal sin.

So much for being focused on God.
 
HOPEFUL_IN_UK said:
I don’t have any problem at all with the Tridentine Mass. The liturgy, that is. I do have a problem with the disobedience and other “issues” found around the people who go to these Masses, however.

Not everyone who likes, or even prefers, the TLM is disobedient or schizmatic, but there are enough of them buzzing around that I prefer to steer clear of the whole scene, for the most part.
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Hit the nail on the head! These are exactly my sentiments!
When I read a lot of comments from TLM “super” supporters, I get the sense of a lot of dissent, especially with Vatican II. The Catholic Church is eternally guided by the Holy Spirit, and no evil will prevail against it. Vatican II is good and holy and righteous and I’m not going to dissent to it because I don’t like the changes it brought about.
This is why I don’t not indulge in the TLM hoopla. The Eucharist is the Eucharist, no matter what, and its for that we should be going.
 
CHCatholic said:
Hit the nail on the head! These are exactly my sentiments!
When I read a lot of comments from TLM “super” supporters, I get the sense of a lot of dissent, especially with Vatican II. The Catholic Church is eternally guided by the Holy Spirit, and no evil will prevail against it. Vatican II is good and holy and righteous and I’m not going to dissent to it because I don’t like the changes it brought about.
This is why I don’t not indulge in the TLM hoopla. The Eucharist is the Eucharist, no matter what, and its for that we should be going.
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Where is the dissent from Vatican II? Show me the Vatican II documents that said to do away with Latin and Gregorian Chant? Show me the Vatican II documents that said the Mass is the personal prayer of the priest? Show me the Vatican II documents that called for Communion in the hand and altar girls? Show me the Vatican II documents that allows half the church to distribute Holy Communion?

No evil will prevail against the Church. This doesn’t mean the Church won’t be damaged. There has been plenty of damage done in the last 40 years. This dissent has been done by the real dissenters of Vatican II, the ones who do things in the “spirit” of Vatican II. There is no such thing as the “spirit” of Vatican II. The “spirit” of Vatican II is a cloak for dissent and disobedience.
 
Swiss_Guard said:
Where is the dissent from Vatican II? Show me the Vatican II documents that said to do away with Latin and Gregorian Chant? Show me the Vatican II documents that said the Mass is the personal prayer of the priest? Show me the Vatican II documents that called for Communion in the hand and altar girls? Show me the Vatican II documents that allows half the church to distribute Holy Communion?

No evil will prevail against the Church. This doesn’t mean the Church won’t be damaged. There has been plenty of damage done in the last 40 years. This dissent has been done by the real dissenters of Vatican II, the ones who do things in the “spirit” of Vatican II. There is no such thing as the “spirit” of Vatican II. The “spirit” of Vatican II is a cloak for dissent and disobedience.
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You’re right, it’s not the traditional Catholics who have dissented from VII, but those who insist on interpreting the documents in their own manner. I have posted this before, but it merits repeating, since the accusation keeps coming up that traditionalists dissent from Vatican II

From the VII document Sacrosanctum Concilium, that the “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd would just as soon we didn’t read.
  1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established…3. Therefore, no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change the liturgy on his own authority.
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36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
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54…steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
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115…Composers and singers, especially boys, must also be given a genuine liturgical training.
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  1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
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  1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
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  1. The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from Holy Scripture and from liturgical sources.
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124…Let bishops carefully remove from the house of God and from other sacred places those works of artists which are repugnant to faith, morals, and Christian piety, and which offend true religious sense either by depraved forms or by lack of artistic worth, mediocrity and pretense.
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Swiss_Guard said:
Where is the dissent from Vatican II? Show me the Vatican II documents that said to do away with Latin and Gregorian Chant? Show me the Vatican II documents that said the Mass is the personal prayer of the priest? Show me the Vatican II documents that called for Communion in the hand and altar girls? Show me the Vatican II documents that allows half the church to distribute Holy Communion?

No evil will prevail against the Church. This doesn’t mean the Church won’t be damaged. There has been plenty of damage done in the last 40 years. This dissent has been done by the real dissenters of Vatican II, the ones who do things in the “spirit” of Vatican II. There is no such thing as the “spirit” of Vatican II. The “spirit” of Vatican II is a cloak for dissent and disobedience.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, I was just saying the feeling I got from a majority of TLMers. I know VII never said do away with Latin, and there is a lot of pain in our Church now, I agree. And yes Latin needs to come back, when I’m a priest, I’m loading my NO masses with Latin, as VII intended:thumbsup:
 
CHCatholic said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, I was just saying the feeling I got from a majority of TLMers. I know VII never said do away with Latin, and there is a lot of pain in our Church now, I agree. And yes Latin needs to come back, when I’m a priest, I’m loading my NO masses with Latin, as VII intended:thumbsup:
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I would study the documents of Vatican II before I call people dissenters.

There are problems with the interpretation of the Vatican II documents which I’m sure you’ll find out about in the seminary.

God bless you and your vocation. You’re in my prayers. We need holy priests.
 
I am one of those people who loves Latin. And having lived overseas in a few countries, I have really wondered why the Church, which usually makes changes slowly, made that change right as everyone was leaving on airplanes to globetrot. It really would be nice to have one liturgy wherever you go! And it would cut down on the polarization in parishes that you see now where the Spanish mass people are a parish within a parish. We are all poorer for that.

Having said that, I have worked real hard to find parishes where the liturgy was celebrated reverently. Yes, the NO can be very beautiful, especially when coupled with competent music and a good Schola choir. I am a post-Vatican II baby who has only known the NO. I have had pastors that have heavily infused it with Latin, especially at the Consecration. God bless them. And I love that I can follow the prayers.

My diocese allows the TLM. It is even said in our cathedral. I have been to that a few times also. I’m not a big fan of not hearing the priest as he says the prayers. It’s hard to follow in my head, and it removes that feeling of the congregation worshipping in union. It’s quiet and reverent, but we are all literally not on the same page.

I have also been to Eastern Rite Liturgies in Old Church Slavonic. Just lovely. (That is to Russian what Latin is to Italian.) A real sense of the Jewish heritage in the Mass that you don’t get even with the TLM.

There is room for everyone. We’re CATHOLIC. Can’t we all just… get along? 😃
 
There is room for everyone. We’re CATHOLIC. Can’t we all just… get along?
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this is what is the most frustrating. why do these bishops care? the TLM may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but for those who are attached to it, it’svery important to our piety and faith.

i love the TLM because it brings me to the worship of our ancestors which is a pinacle of western culture and artistic expression.

cardinal arinze surprised me that he’s opposed to it but i read some of his thoughts on the liturgy and didn’t agree with him. why does he care?
 
However, there isn’t a problem with the Traditional Latin Mass being celebrated according to the rubrics. Why is that?
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It’s the people who celebrate it now. Don’t worry, if the MP comes out, I’m sure you’ll see some problems with some people celebrating it against the rubrics. Let’s put it this way, there were a bunch of homosexuals up here that were pushing for the TLM not too long ago because they thought it was “pretty”. I can just see it now, we might even have the TLM with liturgical dancing because that’s pretty too.:doh2: [Edited by Moderator] That said, most will be happy and the traditionalists would definitely get a big glimpse into our lot of loving the Novus Ordo and seeing it trampled on.:crying:
 
paramedicgirl said:
The TLM isn’t a show. The Mass is largely prayers that are quietly whispered to God on our behalf. Actual participation as opposed to active participation is how you “get involved” in the TLM. Instead of watching people running around all over the sanctuary, you lift your heart and mind to God in prayer, joining in the prayers of the Mass interiorly, and uniting yourself to the prayers of the Mass, offering them to God in union with the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary.

I too was acutely aware of the lack of participation the first time I went. The second time I went it didn’t bother me. It took a few more times to learn the Mass well enough to follow along, and after about five or six TLM’s, I felt I understood it well.
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Why quietly whispered? And as I understand the Divine Liturgy " when “we lift our hearts up to the Lord” we are in participation with all the angels and saints in the eternal offering of the Lamb in Heaven, we are really in heaven on earth. I would venture to guess there is no whispering in heaven. I’m sure that if one were to attend a TLM on a regular basis, the understanding of what was going on, and in which order, would deffinately happen, even become “routine”. I kept thinking that as I was fumbling through the Mass. Must be how Protestants feel the first time they are exposed to a Mass. I just truly don’t see how catholics who have never been exposed to a Latin Mass, would be drawn to it. Maybe I’m just jealous, never know!!
 
Frank_Fenn said:
I understand that people prefer either Mass. But what I am not getting is why some are opposed? Do opposers fear it? Or are they afraid that if it is freed up, then do they fear that it will be replacing the NO Mass?

Perhaps they can understand that there is room for both is there not?

I mean look, we already have it, so tell, why oppose?

Is it the SSPX they fear? Or just the Mass itself? Is it because the dress is more modest? Or because the Mass is in Latin?

I want the truth, why do some so vehemently oppose it? One thing, we are all Catholic. seems to me we are divided as it were, into 2 camps. Those for it, those against. Cannot the opposers be glad for us if the TLM is freed up?

Or, will they fight it? Will the traditionalists forever remain alone? The pope can put his foot down and free up he Mass can he not?

He is the pope, so howcome it has not happened?

What is preventing him? Opposition. that’s what I think.
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Some oppose the LM because it would bring back disciplines. These were exercises in in spirituality over our carnal natures. 🙂
 
maryj said:
I just truly don’t see how catholics who have never been exposed to a Latin Mass, would be drawn to it. Maybe I’m just jealous, never know!!
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I guess I’m a weirdo. 🙂 I attended my first TLM in my early 20s and was completely floored by the total reverence and spirituality that flowed the place when I entered the church. I found it by accident since I had a paid music position at a protestant church earlier in the morning and the only mass I could attend was a 12:00 or 12:30 mass. Before then I didn’t know of any parishes that did the TLM and didn’t even know what a TLM was. I did attend Latin NO masses at another Cathedral (which was only a year before moving to that area where the TLM was done), so I was used to hearing and saying the Latin. Being a trained singer also helped since I had to study languages and such. But when I moved back to my home town after a year of attending those TLM masses every Sunday at 12:30, I did miss it. The pastor who did that mass every Sunday was fairly young too. He looked to be in his 40s.

I don’t mind attending either the TLM and NO. Both are licit in my mind. I’m very comfortable attending either one and I have attended very spiritual and reverent NO masses. But there is something about the TLM that I can’t express in words. I would be very happy if all churches would be able to offer both masses, so that I could attend a TLM if I wanted to without traveling over an hour.

Anyway, perhaps you won’t ever feel comfortable attending a TLM. That’s ok. But perhaps it will grow on you. Who knows?
 
I do attend a TLM. I thought I stated so? Anyway, it is the Mass for me. But as I said in the 1st post, I see alot of opposition, and there is. Perhaps time will help the divide or not. I don’t know.
 
Frank_Fenn said:
I do attend a TLM. I thought I stated so? Anyway, it is the Mass for me. But as I said in the 1st post, I see alot of opposition, and there is. Perhaps time will help the divide or not. I don’t know.
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Not sure if you meant this for me since I’m the post before you, but I was actually replying to MaryJ’s post. Sorry if there was a confusion. 🙂
 
CHCatholic said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, I was just saying the feeling I got from a majority of TLMers. I know VII never said do away with Latin, and there is a lot of pain in our Church now, I agree. And yes Latin needs to come back, when I’m a priest, I’m loading my NO masses with Latin, as VII intended:thumbsup:
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You go on and be a priest! We need good, Holy, priest these days. Have you ever heard of the Denver Catholic Seminary? It is producing some holy, awesome priest! We had a priest from another country to say the Latin in the NO Mass and I loved it since I have a missal and can follow along. I love the NO Mass and I love being able to see the priest and hear him say the prayers to God, this inspires me so much!
I will pray for you that all will go well with your journey to the priesthood!👍
God Bless,
Kelly
 
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