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AJV
Guest
Old hand-missals? Because in the pre-1960 altar missal, in the rubrics and rites, practically every reference is to Mass being “celebrated” and the heading of the rites is “Ritus Servandus in Celebratione Missae”.
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BobP123
Guest
Actually a lot of Churches have two or more Masses. In fact, there are fears that the Spanish Masses will soon outgrow the ICEL/English Mass.
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TraditionalCath
Guest
Frank,
My understanding is this. Yes, there is alot of opposition to the freeing up of the TLM. I can only tell you from my point of view, that I think both sides need to really sit down and discuss things openly.
I think that the shock to the folks back in the 60’s at the TLM basically disappearing and the new mass coming in was hard to digest. i know alot of older people who wish that it was brought back. They remember the TLM, and alot of the ones I have spoken to wish it was the norm.
Now, that is not to say that some of the folks who grew up with the NO do not appreciate the TLM,. For some of them, it is exciting, for others not.
i think they are just worried that if it is freed up, they will lose their Mass, but that is not the case. I have heard both sides, and the traditional Catholics I know are anxiously waiting for the TLM to be freed, and some of the people who attend the new mass prefer things the way they are.
But your quite correct, there is room for both. There is no need for this opposition. None. Let traditional Catholics have the TLM, and let the people who attend the new mass have theirs.
That is basically all i can say on this issue.
My understanding is this. Yes, there is alot of opposition to the freeing up of the TLM. I can only tell you from my point of view, that I think both sides need to really sit down and discuss things openly.
I think that the shock to the folks back in the 60’s at the TLM basically disappearing and the new mass coming in was hard to digest. i know alot of older people who wish that it was brought back. They remember the TLM, and alot of the ones I have spoken to wish it was the norm.
Now, that is not to say that some of the folks who grew up with the NO do not appreciate the TLM,. For some of them, it is exciting, for others not.
i think they are just worried that if it is freed up, they will lose their Mass, but that is not the case. I have heard both sides, and the traditional Catholics I know are anxiously waiting for the TLM to be freed, and some of the people who attend the new mass prefer things the way they are.
But your quite correct, there is room for both. There is no need for this opposition. None. Let traditional Catholics have the TLM, and let the people who attend the new mass have theirs.
That is basically all i can say on this issue.
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Frank_Fenn
Guest
Agreed.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
What about the unwarranted judgments made here and elsewhere that traditionalists must be sedevacantists and their own mini popes? Do you see how there is irrational judgment on both sides from a few who appear to make it look like this attitude is commonplace?
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BobP123
Guest
I think the idea is to bring people (back) to going to Church. Why would the Pope not want to do that? He sees the numbers. Why do you think he travelled to South America at the risk of antagonizing the leaders over there? I think he definitely wants to reverse the exodus of Catholics more than hurt the faithful.
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Aramis
Guest
To the OP:
Roman Rite History is filled with suppression of “tradition” of organic outgrowth of the church. The council of Trent itself was a suppression of several “lower-case t” traditions that had evolved in regionalizations of the pre-Trent missals.
Note that the East also has subtle and distinctive growth of “lower-case t” traditions as well. Far fewer, and far more slowly, both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. For if they didn’t, they would still be using the liturgies of St. Basil or earlier on a daily basis, rather than St. John. They’d still be speaking Greek and Aramaic, not Armenian, Serb, Croat, English, Slavonic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc., and meeting in people’s homes.
ParamedicGirl:
When I’m out in “semi-urban” Alaska, I often have to call ahead a week or more in advance to find out when the Liturgy is, and whether it is a mass, a Communion Service, or a Liturgy of the Word. The reality is that Kenai, Soldotna, Seward and other such parishes can be held hostage by their priest to one form or the other if it is the priest’s choice, simply because the priest being there is the only chance one gets, sometimes for more than a month.
There is good advice posted in most of the Archdiocesan Sacristies: “Priest of God: Say this Mass as if it were your First Mass, Your Last Mass, Your Only Mass.”
In many rural areas, it may be just that for a given parishioner.
Roman Rite History is filled with suppression of “tradition” of organic outgrowth of the church. The council of Trent itself was a suppression of several “lower-case t” traditions that had evolved in regionalizations of the pre-Trent missals.
Note that the East also has subtle and distinctive growth of “lower-case t” traditions as well. Far fewer, and far more slowly, both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. For if they didn’t, they would still be using the liturgies of St. Basil or earlier on a daily basis, rather than St. John. They’d still be speaking Greek and Aramaic, not Armenian, Serb, Croat, English, Slavonic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc., and meeting in people’s homes.
If, for example, the Circuit priest in a given rural parish chooses to do the TLM, the parishioners will have NO choice other than to sin by non-attending. These priests have little time at each parish, being there once a month or so, for a few hours… then on the road again (weather permitting).
When I’m out in “semi-urban” Alaska, I often have to call ahead a week or more in advance to find out when the Liturgy is, and whether it is a mass, a Communion Service, or a Liturgy of the Word. The reality is that Kenai, Soldotna, Seward and other such parishes can be held hostage by their priest to one form or the other if it is the priest’s choice, simply because the priest being there is the only chance one gets, sometimes for more than a month.
There is good advice posted in most of the Archdiocesan Sacristies: “Priest of God: Say this Mass as if it were your First Mass, Your Last Mass, Your Only Mass.”
In many rural areas, it may be just that for a given parishioner.
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LilyM
Guest
Thank you! A timely reminder that in some places people DO have to take what they’re given, and with all the faults of the NO, if the TLM is the ONLY Mass available it will definitely be what much less than a majority of Catholics would want.
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BobP123
Guest
What you’re trying to say here is that, although there has been a severe decline in the priesthood because of perhaps lower attendance, you think that reintroducing the TLM will decline the attendance even further. Is this a true statement?
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sosayi1960
Guest
Pardon my ignorance. I was extremely young when Vatican II came about. Is it possible the mass in Latin would split the church in two? People are leaving the church in droves already.
I’m just wondering could this return to tradition divide the church throughout the world? Just Curious? I’m not a traditionalist but I would hate to see the church broken in half.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Every wonder why —people are leaving the Church in what you call droves. Could it be that they got tired searching for a Mass that has not been innovated --and find their way to the Orthodox Church . Or could it be that some just find it to difficult to be Catholic, to follow our teachings, and go on to search for something that fits their lifestyle.
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sosayi1960
Guest
Maybe the Orthodox Church is the answer for some people. God knows we have enough division already. I just pray for the unity of the Church. I fear this path that the present Pope is taking the Church will split it in two.
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BobP123
Guest
I don’t buy that argument. When we had only one Mass in Latin, we were more united then. We all went to the very same Mass at the very same time. If anything and almost by definition, the vernacular split the Church.
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sosayi1960
Guest
Perhaps your right. Time will tell
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Walking_Home
Guest
Your fear in unfounded. The NO will be there for those who prefer it—just as the TLM will be there for those who want to attend.
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Frank_Fenn
Guest
Well spoken!
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Are you saying that people prefer a Mass with faults to that of the TLM?
I live in a rural area and I am forced to attend the NO, which is not the Mass of my choice. So you see, it works both ways. I must attend a Mass that is humdrum and lacking in true reverence because of where I live.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
The Church already is divided. The Eastern Orthodox have been in schism for a thousand years.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Don’t forget that many of these people who are looking for more reverence go straight to the SSPX
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