Noticing alot of opposition to the Tridentine Mass

[VociMike]

Hmm, well what is so wrong about cleaning up their acts?

Nothing, obviously. But those in opposition will view it more as going back to 1950 (or even 1450). They’re afraid of losing all of the “improvements” that came about after Vatican II (even if most of those “improvements” weren’t called for by Vatican II at all, and some are in direct opposition to Vatican II).

Maybe they’re starting to understand that they have built a liturgical house of cards that could collapse without much prompting.

And I’m saying all this as a Novus Ordo attendee (albeit often - but not exclusively - a Latin ad orientem Novus Ordo).

 

[paramedicgirl]

Still, why would anyone want to do away with a tradition that is ancient? what think they then? the Catholic faith in the dark ages?

Perhaps my SIL, paramedicgirl can enlighten me?

Probably because number one, they don’t understand or appreciate it. And also because they may feel an attachment for more “modern” practices. Some people feel frightened that a return to the TLM will usher in the dark ages again and it will be too big of an adjustment for them.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Paramedicgirl is your SIL? I better be nice to you now!

If anyone can enlighten you, it’s paramedicgirl. She’s smart, articulate, and a great internet conversationalist.

You’re just saying that 'cause I’m posting in the same thread as you.

 

[Walking_Home]

I see what about pleasing God? doesn’t matter then, or what?

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It would seem—mans pleasure trumps God.

 

[paramedicgirl]

She completely confuses me. Oh, well.

Hey!! Be nice.

 

[Frank_Fenn]

Probably because number one, they don’t understand or appreciate it. And also because they may feel an attachment for more “modern” practices. Some people feel frightened that a return to the TLM will usher in the dark ages again and it will be too big of an adjustment for them.

Ahh! I see! so this is the main reason?

 

[Frank_Fenn]

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It would seem—mans pleasure trumps God.

 

[paramedicgirl]

It comes down to this Frank: The clear majority of people who oppose the Traditional Latin Mass want to make the Church into their own image and likeness.

I was a novice in a religious order 10 years ago. One of my fellow novices who was as modernist as they come, was talking about our First Vows Mass. We were given the option to pick the music and readings for the Mass. He said to me that he wanted to see my “mark” on the Mass. I replied that the Mass doesn’t belong to me, it belongs to the Church. I said I will only do what the Church approves.

This is the attitude of the clear majority of people who oppose the Traditional Latin Mass. They don’t just oppose, they want it abrogated. Then they can make the Church in *their *own image and likeness.

They repeat the words spoken before the creation of the world: NON SERVUM!

I agree that there is a tendency for some to make the Church over into their own image and likeness. It’s all around us, with every innovation and every special interest group who pushes for their own agenda. What surprises me, is that’s it’s not obvious to them. Wasn’t it Pope St Pius X who said that modernists agree with the Church documents, but their interpretation of them is not the same as the traditional interpretation. In other words, they apply a new meaning to them so that they can say they agree with them.
BTW, I like your new sig: Lex orandi, lex credendi

 

[Frank_Fenn]

I agree that there is a tendency for some to make the Church over into their own image and likeness. It’s all around us, with every innovation and every special interest group who pushes for their own agenda. What surprises me, is that’s it’s not obvious to them. Wasn’t it Pope St Pius X who said that modernists agree with the Church documents, but their interpretation of them is not the same as the traditional interpretation. In other words, they apply a new meaning to them so that they can say they agree with them.
BTW, I like your new sig: Lex orandi, lex credendi

Can they make the Church in their image? its done already is it not?

 

[paramedicgirl]

I think the real fear is that unwarranted judgements like this will be made about the NO! Both are perfectly valid and properly promulgated liturgies, both, if celebrated according to the rubrics, entirely focused on God.

Actually, what I could see happening is for the TLM to have an effect on the way the Novus Ordo is said. By that I mean a positive effect, one of increased reverence.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Ahh! I see! so this is the main reason?

Also, from what I have seen on here, lots of people who attend the Novus Ordo have the misconception that it will be taken away from them. Also that they will have a TLM forced on them in their own parish. They don’t seem to understand that they will never have to attend a TLM unless they want to.

 

[Walking_Home]

Probably because number one, they don’t understand or appreciate it. And also because they may feel an attachment for more “modern” practices. Some people feel frightened that a return to the TLM will usher in the dark ages again and it will be too big of an adjustment for them.

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While that my hold true for some----the way the last 40 yrs have transpired— leads me to believe the following:

To destroy a Religion, you must first sever its traditions

Ps. Hey TNT—hope you don’t mind —I borrowed your sig.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Can they make the Church in their image? its done already is it not?

The push is on, that’s for sure.

 

[VociMike]

I think the real fear is that unwarranted judgements like this will be made about the NO!

It’s true that some TLM proponents are their own worst enemies, and by their vitriol drive away Catholics who should and would otherwise be their allies. It’s something that really bothers me.

 

[Frank_Fenn]

Also, from what I have seen on here, lots of people who attend the Novus Ordo have the misconception that it will be taken away from them. Also that they will have a TLM forced on them in their own parish. They don’t seem to understand that they will never have to attend a TLM unless they want to.

Yes, that is the way they seem to think. There are 2 Masses. They do not have to attend a TLM if they do not want to. Answer me this if you can, what would happen if the Church went entirely back to the way it was before Vatican II ?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Yes, that is the way they seem to think. There are 2 Masses. They do no thave to attend a TLM if they do not want to. Answer me this if you can, what would happen if the Church went entirely back to the way it was before Vatican II ?

The simple answer is that it would make all the trads very, very happy. The others, not so happy.

 

[Sarabande]

Also, from what I have seen on here, lots of people who attend the Novus Ordo have the misconception that it will be taken away from them. Also that they will have a TLM forced on them in their own parish. They don’t seem to understand that they will never have to attend a TLM unless they want to.

None of this acrimony on either side make any sense to me.

I think this and many other things paramedicgirl said are true regarding those who seem violently opposed to the TLM. I think another problem are the extremists on both sides. I’ve met people in the NO “camp” who are so cruelly opposed to it for whatever reasons and then I’ve met people in the TLM “camp” who could be just as bad in their thinking towards the NO mass. They are both hurting themselves and each other.

My husband and I are of the generation who only knew the NO since we grew up in the 80s and 90s. We were exposed to the TLM in our early 20s. The last couple of years we’ve had the pleasure of attending more of those masses. We believe that the NO and TLM are both legit, but it seems more common to attend a NO mass with lots of abuses and irreverence, than when we attend a TLM. I’m not saying all NO are like that at all because we’ve been fortunate to be involved in parishes that are reverent. But it has gotten to the point for my husband to attend more masses at the TLM parish which is about a little over an hour from us instead of where we usually attend. Since I have a music position, it would be rare to attend mass with him, though.

 

[Frank_Fenn]

The simple answer is that it would make all the trads very, very happy. The others, not so happy.

Yes, I guess so. But for me, I already attend a TLM and it is nothing new for me. So if the change came, it would be nothing new for me. I wonder how the others would handle it?

Also, i think I get the point of the reason why so many fear it. There really is nothing to fear. I see at Mass people coming from the NO, and they actually are in awe of the TLM.

But they still have questions. I think for me, since it is so normal for me to go to a TLM, and if that was all I ever knew, and suddenly it was changed into something else, (actually it was) then I’d fear also what I did not know.

I do not grasp the necessesity of changing the TLM in the 60’s. I do not think it was necessary to drop it.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Yes, I guess so. But for me, I already attend a TLM and it is nothing new for me. So if the change came, it would be nothing new for me. I wonder how the others would handle it?

Also, i think I get the point of the reason why so many fear it. There really is nothing to fear. I see at Mass people coming from the NO, and they actually are in awe of the TLM.

But they still have questions. I think for me, since it is so normal for me to go to a TLM, and if that was all I ever knew, and suddenly it was changed into something else, (actually it was) then I’d fear also what I did not know.

I do not grasp the necessesity of changing the TLM in the 60’s. I do not think it was necessary to drop it.

That is exactly what happened with the promulgation of the New Mass. The TLM* was* snatched away from the faithful. Can you imagine how they felt, having this New Mass forced upon them? I think people should remember that this happened, before they make such harsh judgments about not wanting the TLM to come back. How would they feel if the Mass they loved was snatched away from them and they were forced to attend a TLM? It won’t happen, but it is good if they remember what everyone went through. Maybe then they can lighten up in their opposition to the Motu Proprio.

 

[Unitas]

I’m not sure if anyone brought this up, but what troubles me most about the resistance to the motu proprio is that it’s also coming from Cardinal Arinze.

It’s obvious he want to reform the new mass in lieu of the documents that came out of the CDW, so he seems at least somewhat traditional, which is why his resistance is a very out-of-character thing for him to do.

At least that’s what it seems like to me.