Noticing alot of opposition to the Tridentine Mass

[BobP123]

What about the “faith?” Our Catholic “faith” teaches us that the Vicar of Christ in his teaching authority is guided by the Lord Himself, and the proclamations/documents he issues are to be “obeyed” if one wishes to call themselves Catholic.

Obedience is absolutely necessary if one is NOT to deviate from true faith.

Fair enough.

So where’s the obedience as far as “wide and generous application of the Missal of 1962” goes?? Isn’t Ecclesia Dei worthy of obedience? After all, it was an official DECREE from the Pontiff, wasn’t it? Where’s the good example of obedience that bishops are supposed to set?

It’s been what, 19 years since and we need (another) Motu Proprio to make the wishes of the Vicar of Christ known to all bishops? I hope there’ll be more obedience this time.

 

[BobP123]

Puzzleannie’s solution is to go back to the Mass 101 and learn about it.

Not necessary if you read the prayers contained in the Tradtional Latin Mass. It’s all there for you in black and white.

 

[Joysong]

Hi bob,

I’m from the old days of latin rite liturgies. I cannot find anything in the wording of the prayers that explains the mass as beautifully as our Eucharistic Prayer IV in the ordinary rite. Have you ever read it and compared it to the litany of saints recited in the latin canon, for which there is only one version?

P: Having communion with and venerating the memory, first, of the glorious Mary, ever a virgin, mother of Jesus Christ, our God and our Lord: likewise {of blessed Joseph, spouse of the same virgin} of Thy blessed apostles and martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Phillip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Thaddeus; of Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, and of all Thy saints: for the sake of whose merits and prayers do Thou grant that in all things we may be defended by the help of Thy protection. Through the same Christ, our Lord. Amen.

P: To us sinners, also, Thy servants, who put our trust in the multitude of Thy mercies, vouchsafe to grant some part and fellowship with Thy holy apostles and martyrs; with John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all Thy saints. Into their company do Thou, we beseech Thee, admit us, not weighing our merits, but freely pardoning our offenses: through Christ our Lord.

Now how does this explain the Mass in comparison with the canon below?

It is right to give God Thanks and Praise

Father, we acknowledge your greatness;
all your actions show your wisdom and love,
You formed us in your own likeness
and set us over the whole world
to serve you, our Creator,
and to rule over all creatures.

Even when we disobeyed you and lost your friendship
you did not abandon us to the power of death,
but helped us seek and find you.
Again and again you offered us a covenant,
and through the prophets
taught us to hope for salvation.

Father, you so loved the world
that in the fullness of time
you sent your only Son to be our Savior.
He was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
like us in all things but sin.

To the poor he proclaimed the good news of salvation,
to prisoners, freedom,
and to those in sorrow, joy.
In fulfillment of your will
he gave himself up to death,
he destroyed death and restored life.

And that we might live
no longer for ourselves but for him,
he sent the Holy Spirit from you, Father,
as his first gift to those who believe,
to complete his work on earth
and bring us the fullness of grace.

Father, we now celebrate this memorial of our redemption. We recall Christ’s death, his descent among the dead, his resurrection, and his ascension to your right hand; and, looking forward to his coming in glory, we offer you his body and blood, the acceptable sacrifice which brings salvation to the whole world.

Lord, look upon this sacrifice which you have given to your Church; and by your Holy Spirit, gather all who share this one bread and one cup into the one body of Christ, a living sacrifice of praise.

Lord, remember those for whom we offer this sacrifice, especially {Benedict} our Pope, {name of local bishop}, our bishop, and bishops and clergy everywhere. Remember those who take part in this offering, those here present and all your people, and all who seek you with a sincere heart. Remember those who have died in the peace of Christ and all the dead whose faith is known to you alone. Father, in your mercy grant also to us, your children, to enter into our heavenly inheritance in the company of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, and your apostles and saints. Then, in your kingdom, freed from the corruption of sin and death, we shall sing your glory with every creature through Christ our Lord, through whom you give us everything that is good.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Does not conflicts exist regardless? If we accepted the NO and all its variances from the original scripted LM and now the LM is returning why are some opposed?

The LM was good for our ancestors and all the saints, even angels sent down from Heaven are quoted in Latin.

I do not see a problem with the Latin Mass.

What it probably reveal is how divided we really are–itbe like switching on a lightswitch. It’s a sign of the times.

 

[TraditionalCath]

It does make me wonder how many people who cherish their New Mass and are afraid of the Motu Proprio, have taken the time to consider how the traditionalists felt way back in 1969 when they had their cherished Latin Mass ripped out from beneath them. All we want is to have it back.

 

[TraditionalCath]

Sorry but I’m a convert and I don’t really understand why having Tridentine Mass is making people upset. What difference does it make?

precisely what i’d like to know. thus, the question of the OP.

 

[Joysong]

It does make me wonder how many people who cherish their New Mass and are afraid of the Motu Proprio, have taken the time to consider how the traditionalists felt way back in 1969 when they had their cherished Latin Mass ripped out from beneath them. All we want is to have it back.

This poster was how old in 1969? (based on her profile picture, she would be rather young)

This is the crux of the situation, that many who are the most vociferous about the “true mass of ages” weren’t even around as adults in those days to know exactly what took place. The grumbling was born from listening to the rumors circulating and forming false ideas about what the liturgy should be.

I see no value in issuing a motu proprio at this late date in time to ease the pain of the adults who had problems with transition, for many are now deceased, as are the clergy who knew how to celebrate the latin liturgy. The pain, if you will, is “inherited” pain that is not experiential from having lived in those days, but second hand and formed upon lack of understanding of liturgy.

Any who put their sole preference in nonessentials such as I see lamentend so often, have missed the very essence. My hope is that these people would read Sacramentum Caritatis and some of the later documents of our popes, and pray for understanding rather than grumble.

We are reminded in the feast we celebrated yesterday, that we truly are all part of the body of Christ, and as such, should be loving one another.

Mk. 12:33 To love one’s neighbour as one’s self, is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices. 34 And Jesus seeing that he had answered wisely, said to him: Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.

Some believe in the TLM liturgy, but will not accept their neighbor in love as “one’s self” unless that other person is also a traditionist. One truly misses the mark.

 

[stmaria]

johnstown johnn does have a point. Much music today does indeed come from protestant hymnals, and some of our Masses do seem very similar to Lutheran services, however we must make the distinction from right and wrong practice, from abuse and from what the Second Vatican Council actually called for. Look at some of the beautiful (and orthodox) Masses being said in places like Lincoln, Denver, and Detroit for example (pic below)…

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/1659/2191/400/448044/MM06 056_a.jpg

(PS~ For those who don’t know, this picture is from Assumption Grotto in Detroit, and yes, this is a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated very much in accordance orthodox Catholic teaching.)

Why isn’t the Tabernacle on the altar???

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine1957
Sorry but I’m a convert and I don’t really understand why having Tridentine Mass is making people upset. What difference does it make?

precisely what i’d like to know. thus, the question of the OP.

---

From participating in these forums–a picture is becoming more clear. It seems that those who see tradition and the TLM as causing division are also more likely to defend other Masses --ex. the Charismatic Mass. They do not want to see the division that has happened by introducing foreign forms of expression into the Church. They are more likely to deny–that the abuse introduced into our NO Mass–has contributed to the instability of the Church.

 

[BobP123]

Some believe in the TLM liturgy, but will not accept their neighbor in love as “one’s self” unless that other person is also a traditionist. One truly misses the mark.

I have lots of neighbors who frequent the local NO and probably wouldn’t be interested in attending the TLM. But they are good people and I would probably go out of my way if they asked anything of me. It’s the people who go out of their way and force me to accept their own spirituality where I have a problem. I’m not sure how to hit the mark with them.

 

[Joysong]

BobP123:

It’s the people who go out of their way and force me to accept their own spirituality where I have a problem. I’m not sure how to hit the mark with them.

That would include Paul VI who desired the entire Church to accept the new missal? Did he “force” us? No, not even Jesus would force His teachings on others. He freely let them go their way, but the loss was theirs, however, until such time as they were open to re-examining His message.

I don’t know who you are referring to that force you, and I’m reading maybe too much into your words. It seems you are imputing your idea toward some forum members, none of whose posts I read attempt to force anyone. Maybe you meant in your own circles, hopefully.

 

[E.E.N.S]

The TLM is comparitively rare when compared to the NO, but what I find to be even more rare is a NO Mass celebrated within the given norms of the Church. I think there would be far less complaining if the majority of the NO Masses were being celebrated within those norms. In fact, the norms are no where near normative, which one could point out to be the encompassing abuse.

 

[thecoach]

Dear coach,

What about the Faith? …the one true Faith? You are placing obedience above Faith. Obedience is a moral virtue. Faith Hope and Charity are theological virtues and as such they are of a higher value. This moral virtue is ALWAYS subordinate to the three theological virtues.

What about faith? My faith isnt shaken because Mass isnt in Latin. Yours seems to be a nonargument.

 

[Jakub]

If one was to review the accurate translations of the 2002 Missal (Latin) and their current English translation one would tend to believe a deception is occuring…

But most don’t care or is it blind obedience…I’m not a lemming and do like to know what really is happening.

So the past mode of worship for 500 years and used by many of the saints is defective ?

james

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all who participated.