Novus Ordo community not okay?

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sw85 said:
I have refrained from using the Baltimore Catechism as I have heard it has never been approved.
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wasserfall said:
What? It was written at the command of the U.S. Bishops, expressed at the third council of Baltimore. That’s why it’s called the Baltimore Catechism.

Your objection is ridiculous. Go read the Baltimore Catechism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Catechism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenary_Councils_of_Baltimore
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Actually, you’re both right. The Baltimore Catechism was never endorsed by the Vatican, because the original plan was to translate one edition of a European catechism and at the last minute the American bishops decided to change their resource. The Vatican was not pleased. Therefore, it did not give the catechism the label of “Official Catechism for the Church in the United States” which was what the Council of Baltimore was going for. Hence, the bishops had to call it the Baltimore Catechism.

Subsequently, other writers and publishers have put out several catechism called the Baltimore Catechism. All of them follow the same format, Q & A and all of them are Thomistic. All of them have an Impirmatur and a Nihil Obstat. They are free from error. The difference is in wording, order, organization of chapters and references.

My favorite edition is the latest St. Joseph Edition, because it gives you the Q & A but it also gives you other sources, besides Thomas.

For those who question the value of the CCC, let me remind you that the CCC was not meant to be read by the laity. What happened was that the Vatican publisher sold the catechism to an American publisher who put it on the market. Everyone went gaga only to whine and complain two weeks later, because they didn’t understand it.

The reason that they didn’t understand it was that Cardinal Ratzinger, who did the final review was convinced that this was going into the hands of theologians and bishops who would use it as a resource for popular catechisms. If you go to the bookstore on www.usccb.org you will find the
United States Catholic Catechism for Adults. Which is grounded in the CCC, but fills in the gaps with material from scripture, previous catechism and documents. It does exactly what Cardinal Ratzinger wanted the CCC to inspire. There is also the Compendium written by Cardinal Ratzinger himself, which explains for the layman what the CCC is saying.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
…the original plan was to translate one edition of a European catechism and at the last minute the American bishops decided to change their resource.
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You mean the Douay Catechism of 1649?

That’s my favourite catechism hands down.

It connects me to my historic past, and with the holy Fathers at Douay, who laboured so hard to save the Faith in England from extermination, often even at great personal loss and sacrifice. Indeed, a great many martyrs came from the English College at Douai. Edmund Campion, for example.

This catechism also savours a lot of the Angelic and Universal Doctor of the Church, Saint Thomas (“whose learning cannot be explained without admitting a miracle,” as Pope John XXII noted). However, it is put into terms and concepts the laity can more readily understand.

It also follows the succinct and traditional Q & A format.
 
Up above, the OP (Puppy) said that the SSPX priest said to read the whole catechism. I understood that to mean the Roman Catechism.

I find that to be good advice. The Roman Catechism is quite readable.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
You mean the Douay Catechism of 1649?

That’s my favourite catechism hands down.

It also follows the succinct and traditional Q & A format.
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No. The Sacred Congregation for the Faith of that time did not like that one either. It endorsed and promoted only the Bellarmine Catechism and ordered the American bishops to edit that one and adapt it to the USA. The bishops changed it for the Butler Catechism, which was already in English. It had been published in Ireland. The editing would be less.

The Sacred Congregation did not endorse the new Catechism and it never became the official catechism of the United States. Hence the name, Baltimore Catechism. But the bishops never put a copyright on the name. There are at least three publishers who put out the Baltimore Catechism under different authors. They’re all trying to organize it better.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I have a confession to make. Once in a while a little demon gets inside of me. 😃

Have you folks ever met one of these radical Traditionalists who sound like the Catholic version of radical Islam? If not, trust me. They exist. Everyone is going to hell in a handbasket. All non-Catholics should be executed unless they convert and mainstream Catholics are closet atheists, etc etc.

I had one of those ladies in my office once. She was ranting and raving about the fact that I don’t teach using the Baltimore Catechsim. Actually, I use the Bible, the writings of the Franciscans doctors and the Carmelite mystics. Pretty orthodox crowd.

This was not good enough for this lady. I truly wanted to hit her on the head with a catechism. 😊

I restrained myself. However, I went next door to one of brothers who has a PhD in Religious Education. He has every catechism that has been printed since the letters of Paul. I came back and laid out four Baltimore Catechisms on the desk and asked the dear lady, “Which author would you suggest that I use?”

She looked at me as if I had two heads. I simply pointed to the fact that they had different authors and had been published at different times by at least two publishers. Some were the same author, but a revised edition.

Then the lady accused me of “some Modernist trick.” :sad_yes:

I thought I’d share that one. It was funny.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
thewanderer said:
I’d just like to point out that noone said there was anything wrong with using older versions instead of newer… rather it was the idea that the newest version of the catechism is “no good” which implies that it is either theologically or doctrinally unsound, which was being contended.
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Some sections are too ambiguous.
 
JReducation said:
No. The Sacred Congregation for the Faith of that time did not like that one either. It endorsed and promoted only the Bellarmine Catechism and ordered the American bishops to edit that one and adapt it to the USA. The bishops changed it for the Butler Catechism, which was already in English. It had been published in Ireland. The editing would be less.

The Sacred Congregation did not endorse the new Catechism and it never became the official catechism of the United States. Hence the name, Baltimore Catechism. But the bishops never put a copyright on the name. There are at least three publishers who put out the Baltimore Catechism under different authors. They’re all trying to organize it better.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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The Bellarmine Catechism is the Council of Trent Catechism right? But I thought that was intended for pastors only? Or is the Bellarmine catechism another catechism written for the laity specifically?
 
Thanks for the clarification brother JR!
1AugustSon7 said:
The Bellarmine Catechism is the Council of Trent Catechism right? But I thought that was intended for pastors only? Or is the Bellarmine catechism another catechism written for the laity specifically?
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I thought the Council of Trent’s catechism is simply called the Roman Catechism. Bellarmine’s came later.
 
JReducation said:
I have a confession to make. Once in a while a little demon gets inside of me. 😃

Have you folks ever met one of these radical Traditionalists who sound like the Catholic version of radical Islam? If not, trust me. They exist. Everyone is going to hell in a handbasket. All non-Catholics should be executed unless they convert and mainstream Catholics are closet atheists, etc etc.
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The only people I know who say that everyone is going to hell in a hand-basket are the likes of the Dimond brothers (2 people); however, I don’t think even they ever taught that people should be executed for unbelief! I have never heard any Catholic group advocate that.

I do, however, know of certain very well-known religions that teach idolatry is a capital offence and should be punished with decapitation.
JReducation said:
I had one of those ladies in my office once. She was ranting and raving about the fact that I don’t teach using the Baltimore Catechsim. Actually, I use the Bible, the writings of the Franciscans doctors and the Carmelite mystics. Pretty orthodox crowd.
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Is this lady the one who taught that non-Catholics should be executed?
JReducation said:
This was not good enough for this lady. I truly wanted to hit her on the head with a catechism. 😊

I restrained myself. However, I went next door to one of brothers who has a PhD in Religious Education. He has every catechism that has been printed since the letters of Paul. I came back and laid out four Baltimore Catechisms on the desk and asked the dear lady, “Which author would you suggest that I use?”

She looked at me as if I had two heads. I simply pointed to the fact that they had different authors and had been published at different times by at least two publishers. Some were the same author, but a revised edition.

Then the lady accused me of “some Modernist trick.” :sad_yes:

I thought I’d share that one. It was funny.
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That’s not funny. It’s just sad.
 
TrueLight said:
Some sections are too ambiguous.
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You’re really supposed to read it with an encyclopedia of books in your other hand, that’s the problem. They should never have sold the right to a business. They should have done what they do with other books like the Code of Canon Law and the commentaries. They make them available in very remote places such as universities so they can be used in classrooms. Because this catechism needs to be used either with an instructor or with the other sources on hand. Realistically, most people don’t have that kind of library at home.
1AugustSon7 said:
The Bellarmine Catechism is the Council of Trent Catechism right? But I thought that was intended for pastors only? Or is the Bellarmine catechism another catechism written for the laity specifically?
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Bellarmine Catechism I believe came out of the Catechism of Trent. It was well known and trusted by the Holy See.

Butler turned out to be just as good in the end.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
sw85 said:
I thought the Council of Trent’s catechism is simply called the Roman Catechism. Bellarmine’s came later.
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Yes that’s what I thought too; however, I recently read a biography of the Saint and it mentioned that he did a lot of work for the Council afterwards. It also made mention of a Catechism. After a little research, this catechism appears to be what is sometimes referred to as the Little Catechism, which I have heard mentioned before.

The Catechisms I am most familiar with are: the Roman Catechism or Catechism of the Council of Trent, the Douay of 1649, which was later approbated by the Bishop of Boston for use in his Diocese in 1833; the Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X, the Baltimore Catechism and the CCC, 1st and 2nd Ed.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
The only people I know who say that everyone is going to hell in a hand-basket are the likes of the Dimond brothers (2 people); however, I don’t think even they ever taught that people should be executed for unbelief! I have never heard any Catholic group advocate that.
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Don’t take it so literally.
Is this lady the one who taught that non-Catholics should be executed?
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No. She just believed that all of them are going to hell.
That’s not funny. It’s just sad.
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I thought it was funny that she would think I was pulling some Modernist trick on her. I wasn’t. I was trying to show her something. By that time, I believe she was too upset to see what I was trying to show her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
If i were you I wouldn’t have anything to do with the SSPX. as of now they are not in full communion. I wouldn’t use the logic that the will be in the Church soon. Anything can happen.

Please stick to groups in line with Rome. Ex. FSSP and Institute of Christ the King Sovereign priest.
 
NickVA said:
If i were you I wouldn’t have anything to do with the SSPX. as of now they are not in full communion. I wouldn’t use the logic that the will be in the Church soon. Anything can happen.

Please stick to groups in line with Rome. Ex. FSSP and Institute of Christ the King Sovereign priest.
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I like your parish church and I like its webpage. How old is the Church?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
sw85 said:
Thank you. Again, I have to stress I was pretty ignorant about the Mass (and most other things Catholic) at the time. But then, that probably doesn’t put me in a substantially different position than lots of Catholics, maybe even most of them.

I have refrained from using the Baltimore Catechism as I have heard it has never been approved.

Yes, this is true. To put it the most charitable way I can manage, on those issues with respect to which the postconciliar Church is typically accused of error, I don’t think the present Catechism is coherent enough to be wrong about anything. If it is, in fact, in error, it is far from clear to me where or with respect to what.
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There is a Compendium to help understand the current Cathechism.
Here is the link:

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
 
Rich_C said:
**
Puppy, from what little I have read, I get the impression that SSPX is often better at teaching the Catholic faith than our legit shepards, but some of their positions are dangerous ground for the laity to wander into, even though they may have real merit. I suggest sticking to the faith as taught in the Baltimore Catechism and finding a different place to assist at a TLM. Also, I would find a good priest for spiritual direction, but for the moment I suggest a non-SSPX priest.**

Well, you’ve said it. 👍
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JReducation said:
I like your parish church and I like its webpage. How old is the Church?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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You can’t go wrong with a Church which has a statue of Mary right out front.

The construction photos on the website are interesting. It is a beautiful Church.

-Tim-
 
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