Novus Ordo Mass/tridentine Mass

[severinus]

SueG:

I must really be out of the loop…what “new”-“new” Mass?

I believe the reference here is to the new English translation of the Mass. There is some info on the internet. From what I have read so far, it looks very good. Here is one site with some news on it.

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=33160

I am happy to see that the new translation will adhere more closely to the Latin.

 

[kleary]

The Novus Ordo is indeed a hybrid of the traditional Roman Liturgy and the Protestant communion service.

I have been to an Episcopal liturgy and it is just about the same as our NO Mass.

Ken

 

[bear06]

oat soda:

good stuff, thanks for the quotes. it is clear that B16’s overall opinion on the novus ordo mass is negative especially after reading the spirit of the liturgy. now there are some distinctions that are not so clear. i can’t tell if he is talking about the novus ordo mass celebrated according to the rubics with elements of latin, ad orientem, and gregorian chant, or the typical way it is celebrated in america with its horrible icel translation, ad populum, and no sacred polyphony or gregorian chant.

Here’s the Holy Father’s remedy:

“For the life of the Church, it is dramatically urgent to have a renewal of liturgical. awareness, a liturgical reconciliation, which goes back to recognizing the unity in the history of the liturgy and understands Vatican II not as a break, but as a developing moment.”

I think, since he’s worked closely with Fr. Fessio on this, that he is speaking of the latter.

 

[steve_green_2]

Dr. William Marra said it best “No one is happy with the new liturgy the way it is” The “trads” don’t like it and the modernists always want to change it.

Myself, I would love the new mass if it was quieter, and more mystical. I am happy to have a much more serene home with the TLM and divine liturgy.

 

[oat_soda]

I think, since he’s worked closely with Fr. Fessio on this, that he is speaking of the latter.

i think you’re right. he seems to be more about educating the laity and clergy alike about the proper “spirit” of the liturgy which was specifically called for in sacrosanctum concillium.

and in all fairness, the novus ordo mass can be celebrated in a way that makes it fairly harmonius with former liturgical traditions. he seems to want to encourage priests and bishops to celebrate mass in this way by example but doesn’t want to force it or change anything.

i think if he were to force say the missal of 65’ on everyone, it would be too radical of a change, something he is critical of. and he really can’t go against what paul vi approved because it might cause more trouble then it’s worth, although i think he should set the misal of 65’ or something like it as the offical liturgy and do away with all of those extra eucharistic prayers.

 

[Triumpha]

JKirkLVNV:

Let us remember the wise words of our venerable and beloved Holy Father, Pope Pius XII, may his soul rest in peace, from *Mediator Dei *(thanks, Deacon Ed!):

“61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world. They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man.”

Yes, yes, of course I know the Holy Father had been gone for a long time before the Mass of Paul VI, but it is NOW the normative Mass and the Holy Father here *seems *to admit that there might be adaptations or changes for “later times and new situations.” God bless the memory of Pope Pius XII.

You missed the next bit of Mediator Dei, JKirkLVNV!

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

So, Pope Pius XII would regard the New Mass as straying from the straight path.

Triumpha.

 

[bear06]

Triumpha:

You missed the next bit of Mediator Dei, JKirkLVNV!
62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce **everything ** to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

So, Pope Pius XII would regard the New Mass as straying from the straight path.

Triumpha.

To this I would have to say that even more highlighting needs to be done.

While I’d have to say you’ve got your renegade pastors who remove the crucifix and try to simplify down to a simple meal to its primitive table form, I hardly think that you can say that the Pauline Mass does this. I also think that many of the educated variety have repeatedly traced the parts of the Pauline Mass “back to its origins”.

If everything was reduced to antiquity would seem quite impossible since the mass draws on the past as it always has done.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

To this I would have to say that even more highlighting needs to be done.

While I’d have to say you’ve got your renegade pastors who remove the crucifix and try to simplify down to a simple meal to its primitive table form, I hardly think that you can say that the Pauline Mass does this. I also think that many of the educated variety have repeatedly traced the parts of the Pauline Mass “back to its origins”.

If everything was reduced to antiquity would seem quite impossible since the mass draws on the past as it always has done.

Are we to understand that by your measure, Pius XII is cautioning against something that is in fact impossible? Why would he and his pontifical editors do that?
I would look at it as an attempt to call undeveloped antiguity as the desired objective.
Now, from the past and in the Latin NOM:
“et cum spiritu tuo”
NOM english “development from the past”:
“And also with you”

I’m having a Latin heart attack.

 

[bear06]

If everything was reduced to antiquity would seem quite impossible since the mass draws on the past as it always has done

I think you’re focusing on this quote from me and I mistyped. What I meant to type was that “To say that everything was reduced to antiquity…” - Sorry. Got to break the fingers back in! Of course I’m not saying he is wrong!

Everything was not scrapped in the normative Mass. Most of the Mass reflects something found in liturgies of the past.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

I think you’re focusing on this quote from me and I mistyped. What I meant to type was that “To say that everything was reduced to antiquity…” - Sorry. Got to break the fingers back in! Of course I’m not saying he is wrong!

Everything was not scrapped in the normative Mass. Most of the Mass reflects something found in liturgies of the past.

welllllll, ok then , I still love ya.
COC means Churches of Christ

 

[Triumpha]

bear06:

To this I would have to say that even more highlighting needs to be done.

While I’d have to say you’ve got your renegade pastors who remove the crucifix and try to simplify down to a simple meal to its primitive table form, I hardly think that you can say that the Pauline Mass does this. I also think that many of the educated variety have repeatedly traced the parts of the Pauline Mass “back to its origins”.

If everything was reduced to antiquity would seem quite impossible since the mass draws on the past as it always has done.

My point was that Pius XII cites a couple of examples of old practices, the reintroduction of which would comstitute straying from the straight path. And those very practices have been reintroduced! Ergo, the straying of the NOM from the straight path!

Triumpha.

 

[bear06]

Triumpha:

My point was that Pius XII cites a couple of examples of old practices, the reintroduction of which would comstitute straying from the straight path. And those very practices have been reintroduced! Ergo, the straying of the NOM from the straight path!

Triumpha.

Ok, I’ve been gone awhile so I’m out of practice. Can you site an example which might shed some light for me?

 

[Triumpha]

bear06:

Ok, I’ve been gone awhile so I’m out of practice. Can you site an example which might shed some light for me?

Bear 06.

I don’t really need to. It’s in Pius XII’s encyclical Mediator Dei as cited earlier.

Table altars and the elimination of black as a liturgical colour! Pius XII said that to reintroduce table altars and the eliminate black would be to stray from the straight path.

Triumpha.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Truimpha,

Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

Sancrosanctum Consilium mandates none of the above. Nor am I aware of any Vatican directives which do so.

[broken record] The abuses of the Pauline Mass are not the Mass itself. [/broken record]

Saying that the Pauline Mass is defective because it suffers from abuse is like saying that Mozart’s music is no good because one has only ever heard it played by incompetent musicians.

So, Pope Pius XII would regard the New Mass as straying from the straight path.

I doubt it.

 

[bear06]

Triumpha:

Bear 06.

I don’t really need to. It’s in Pius XII’s encyclical Mediator Dei as cited earlier.

Table altars and the elimination of black as a liturgical colour! Pius XII said that to reintroduce table altars and the eliminate black would be to stray from the straight path.

Triumpha.

I guess I’m understanding what you are saying, however, I would disagree. I highly doubt that Pope Pius XII would ever consider his successors bound to his judgements on disciplinary matters (of which these are). If popes were bound to previous popes’ judgements on disciplinary matters than there are a whole lot of popes throughout history who are in trouble.

This is the same similar argument some try to use for Papal Bull Quo Primum and it doesn’t fly. Here’s the rebuttal to this line of argument. ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/QUOPIUS.HTM

 

[Triumpha]

Bear06.

The great thing about Quo Primum is that St Pius V obviously thought it was necessary to write it because he could see that one day the Traditional Mass would be threatened! I consider it prophetic! Why say “noone has the right to forbid this Mass” but with the caveat that “unless someone tries to forbid it one day!”. That would be just daft! I think St Pius V was inspired to write it so that we would be able to have recourse to the Traditional Mass without fear of penalty.

It wouldn’t occur to someone to write such a Bull if he did not see that it might be needed one day!

That’s how I see it anyhow!

Likewise with Pius XII’s warnings. “This would be a mistake, er, unless the Church starts doing it!”

Triumpha.

 

[oat_soda]

“noone has the right to forbid this Mass” but with the caveat that “unless someone tries to forbid it one day!”. That would be just daft! I think St Pius V was inspired to write it so that we would be able to have recourse to the Traditional Mass without fear of penalty.

It wouldn’t occur to someone to write such a Bull if he did not see that it might be needed one day!

i agree. but it’s the church’s job to interpret this stuff. the problem is the church tends to think that the pope or a coucil or committee can manipulate and change the liturgy as if they own it. we should see the pope and church as protectors of the liturgy. it’s not Pius V’s mass, as it’s not Paul the VI’s mass either. they serve the mass as they serve all catholics.

 

[bear06]

Triumpha:

Likewise with Pius XII’s warnings. “This would be a mistake, er, unless the Church starts doing it!”

Triumpha.

I see you read the article. There have been plenty of disciplines that have been changed throughout the centuries. The early popes did quite a bit of changing of disciplines. Does this mean they were wrong to begin with? Not necessarily. Does this mean they were wrong to change them? Possibly but not based solely on the fact that they changed them. Discipline - not dogma. All Popes have the jurisdiction to change disciples. Read Pastor Aeternus.

 

[bear06]

oat soda:

we should see the pope and church as protectors of the liturgy.

I’ll agree with you here.

Here’s another dogmatic teaching to consider:

1. Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52], and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53]. The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54]. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[OrthoCath]

Br CreosMary,

Greetings in Our Lord Jesus Christ!

Will all do respect, I don’t think “and with your spirit” will fix the Novus Ordo. In my humble opinion it needs to be scraped and forgotten about. We should return to the Traditional Liturgy and but aside all these silly failed experiments (gee you would think I grew up with the TLM but I was born WAY after the new mass).