Novus Ordo Mass

[Sean_O_L]

palmas85 wrote:

I see, speculative, not authoratative, in other words:

TOTALLY MADE UP

I actually figured that out already. I was just wondering if anyone would comment on it.Thanks for pointing it out. Kind of displays a prejudice, wouldn’t you say, to just make up figures to support your viewpoint?:

I dunno, palmas85, a prejudice for or against - what? In any event, the speculation turned into a bun-fight. I was only concerned for those who were maths ignorant. It is certainly prejudicial against truth to assert “traditionalist” support at 120 million.

 

[palmas85]

Sean O L:

palmas85 wrote:

I dunno, palmas85, a prejudice for or against - what? In any event, the speculation turned into a bun-fight. I was only concerned for those who were maths ignorant. It is certainly prejudicial against truth to assert “traditionalist” support at 120 million.

It is also certainly prejudicial against truth to pluck a figure out of the air and wave it around as if it were the turth. Or does prejudice only work one way?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Sweetest mercy, have you all gone off on math AGAIN?!?!?!

Eggnog!!! EggNOG!!!

 

[Sean_O_L]

palmas85 wrote:

It is also certainly prejudicial against truth to pluck a figure out of the air and wave it around as if it were the turth. Or does prejudice only work one way?

1. I do not believe that Petergee claimed that it WAS the truth. He was, purely and simply, making an speculation for the sake of argument. At least THAT is how I took it - not in the arcane manner that you, apparently, do.
2. Claims WERE made by others as the strength of numbers of (undefined) “traditionalists.”

Have a nice day now!

 

[palmas85]

Sean O L:

palmas85 wrote:

1. I do not believe that Petergee claimed that it WAS the truth. He was, purely and simply, making an speculation for the sake of argument. At least THAT is how I took it - not in the arcane manner that you, apparently, do.
2. Claims WERE made by others as the strength of numbers of (undefined) “traditionalists.”

Have a nice day now!

Not an arcane way of thinking at all old bean, I think that if someone is going to make a claim like that, and quote a figure, he should at least be quoting the correct figure. I mean, I could say that only 35%, or 35 out of a hundred Catholics even attend Mass anymore. But I don’t know that to be true, so why would I say it? The only possible reason is to support my own argument. And if I make up figures to support my own position, do you know what that makes me?

I’ll give you three guesses.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

Sweetest mercy, have you all gone off on math AGAIN?!?!?!

Eggnog!!! EggNOG!!!

Not the math this time. No this is more of an integrity issue.
Happy New Year Kirk, take care. Oh they just expanded the Traditional Mass here in San Diego to two every Sunday. More of an opportunity for you to attend

 

[Melanie01]

The Pope is infalable. What are so many people forgetting this? quoted from Leah…

Goodness me what an incredible fallacy! The Pope is infallible in very specific and strictly defined roles. If you believe the above then if His Holiness says Krispy Kreme Donuts are the work of the Devil…you would be obliged to believe the Pope

 

[AMDG1]

dumspirospero:

I agree…lets just think about a few things I can think of off hand that was changed in the Mass, but was not mandated by VII…it is just an invention that Priest and Bishops have just decided to inject.

1)Priest facing the people
2)Removal of all Latin from the Mass
3)Receiving Communion in the hand
4)Standing while receiving Communion
5)Removal of Communion Rails
6)Pizza Hut Churches
7)Stripping of the Altars
8)Destroying the original High Altars and flipping them around
8)Removal of tabernacle from center of Church to some obscure spot (out of sight, out of mind…)
9)Removal of Frescoes, Icons, and Statues from Churches
10)Guitars and Drums replace Angelic Choirs
11)White Bathrobes replace the Cassock and Surplice of the Altar Boys and Alcolytes…oh yeah, and now women are now Altar “servers”
12)Non Ordained Lectors and Readers

Gents…this is just a handful of things that pop in my mind that have evolved into the modern day Mass that was not mandated or even hinted at during Vatican II…that is what Traditionalist such as myself has always had a problem with…I don’t have a problem with VII or the Pauline Mass…what I have a problem with is man made inventions that have improperly found their way into our Churches.

How about:

1. “Table” instead of “Altar”
2. “Fellow Christians” instead of “Fellow Catholics” (Priest addressing the parish)
3. Shorter Eucharistic prayers to create more time for “preaching”
4. Priest instructing parishoners to hold hands with each other during the Our Father (not a big deal I suppose but kindof liberal)
5. Baptisms being partially performed in the middle of Mass with parishoners “laying on their hands”

The point is…the Pauline Mass as originally intended is fine in my book. The problem is that there have been many liberalizations of the Mass of the ages…some of which have been invented by local priests, others created or endorsed (I presume) by our American bishops. Seems to me that this is a somewhat concerted effort (I’ll give benefit of the doubt that it’s not an organized one) to move the American Catholic tradition closer to the evangical protestant denominations. The focus is now on “community”…the priest as a fellow “participant” in the Mass…and the celebration of the Eucharist de-emphasized in rubric and prayer such that the homily (now more of a “stand-up” routine by priests parading back and forth in front of the “table”) has equal prominence with the Eucharist. No wonder there seem to be more and more of the faithful showing interest in the TLM ! Seems to me that there is a growing interest in a more “traditional” or “orthodox” celebration of the Mass as a result of the above (in my experience with younger people in their 20’s and 30’s too)…even while the “progressives” (or “liberals”) are interjecting even more “reforms” to the Pauline Mass. Not a good state of affairs for the Church…I can only hope and pray that our Church leaders will find a way to bring the two groups together more effectively so that traditionalists don’t continue to turn to the SSPX or other schismatic groups for lack of better alternatives within the legitimate Church.

 

[Domer1997]

If anyone wants to see a really nice Novus Ordo Mass, try tuning in to the Hallmark Channel at 11am (eastern/pacific) on Sunday and watch Sunday Mass from the University of Notre Dame’s Basilica of the Sacred Heart. …beautiful music as well as great homilies. I believe it will satisfy even the die hard traditionalist. It seems to have all the “smells and bells”, you might say. …not too mention a little of the “old school” Latin and Greek (Kyrie…of course). I believe it’s the prototype of how the Novus Ordo Mass should truly be celebrated. But, I’d like to know what you think also!

 

[Joysong]

I watched the Mass on EWTN last evening where the Pope celebrated the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God. However, I missed the beginning, and came in as he began the Eucharistic Prayer, which the announcer said was Prayer III (Novus Ordo).

Interesting to me was the fact that so many of the complaints I have seen all over this forum about this mass are just that … unfounded complaints based on personal preference. I watched carefully to observe whether or not the Pope used many of them in his manner of celebrating.

1. The Pope faced the people at the altar.
2. He gave the sign of peace. The cameras showed the congregation using obvious verbal expressions of joy and a gesture of handshaking. The cardinals used an unusual way of extending peace that I had not seen before, using both arms outstretched.
3. When the Pope distributed communion to those “standing,” not one person knelt down or genuflected, but used the customary bow of the head.
4. The people received almost equally either in the hand or on the tongue.
5. When the meditation hymn began after communion, I noted a few trumpets being used. (Or trombones?)

All I can say is, if all of this was good enough for the Pope, it’s good enough for me.

Carole

 

[thistle]

Joysong:

I watched the Mass on EWTN last evening where the Pope celebrated the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God. However, I missed the beginning, and came in as he began the Eucharistic Prayer, which the announcer said was Prayer III (Novus Ordo).

Interesting to me was the fact that so many of the complaints I have seen all over this forum about this mass are just that … unfounded complaints based on personal preference. I watched carefully to observe whether or not the Pope used many of them in his manner of celebrating.

1. The Pope faced the people at the altar.
2. He gave the sign of peace. The cameras showed the congregation using obvious verbal expressions of joy and a gesture of handshaking. The cardinals used an unusual way of extending peace that I had not seen before, using both arms outstretched.
3. When the Pope distributed communion to those “standing,” not one person knelt down or genuflected, but used the customary bow of the head.
4. The people received almost equally either in the hand or on the tongue.
5. When the meditation hymn began after communion, I noted a few trumpets being used. (Or trombones?)

All I can say is, if all of this was good enough for the Pope, it’s good enough for me.

Carole

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

I watched the Mass on EWTN last evening where the Pope celebrated the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God. However, I missed the beginning, and came in as he began the Eucharistic Prayer, which the announcer said was Prayer III (Novus Ordo).

Interesting to me was the fact that so many of the complaints I have seen all over this forum about this mass are just that … unfounded complaints based on personal preference. I watched carefully to observe whether or not the Pope used many of them in his manner of celebrating.

1. The Pope faced the people at the altar.
2. He gave the sign of peace. The cameras showed the congregation using obvious verbal expressions of joy and a gesture of handshaking. The cardinals used an unusual way of extending peace that I had not seen before, using both arms outstretched.
3. When the Pope distributed communion to those “standing,” not one person knelt down or genuflected, but used the customary bow of the head.
4. The people received almost equally either in the hand or on the tongue.
5. When the meditation hymn began after communion, I noted a few trumpets being used. (Or trombones?)

All I can say is, if all of this was good enough for the Pope, it’s good enough for me.

Carole

Well you touched on the first few points how about the rest?
6)Pizza Hut Churches
7)Stripping of the Altars
8)Destroying the original High Altars and flipping them around
8)Removal of tabernacle from center of Church to some obscure spot (out of sight, out of mind…)
9)Removal of Frescoes, Icons, and Statues from Churches
10)Guitars and Drums replace Angelic Choirs
11)White Bathrobes replace the Cassock and Surplice of the Altar Boys and Alcolytes…oh yeah, and now women are now Altar “servers”
12)Non Ordained Lectors and Readers

1. “Table” instead of “Altar”
2. “Fellow Christians” instead of “Fellow Catholics” (Priest addressing the parish)
3. Shorter Eucharistic prayers to create more time for “preaching”
4. Priest instructing parishoners to hold hands with each other during the Our Father (not a big deal I suppose but kindof liberal)
5. Baptisms being partially performed in the middle of Mass with parishoners “laying on their hands”

(And where has anyone complained about trumpets in the Holy Mass?? Guitars, drums but trumpets? I don’t think so.)

How you can call these “unfounded complaints based on personal preference” is beyond me. Out of a list of seventeen innovations you were able to point out four. Wow.

People have stated many a time that a reverent NO mass is what they want, without the innovations. THAT is what you saw from the Vatican.

And even if it is personal preference, so what? We are bleeding Catholics, why not give in to some of these?
The innovative liturgical commitees are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Keep the happy hippy liturgy, and lose your congregation.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Net,

I can only comment on those liturgical complaints which have threads of many pages, and which were not avoided by the Pope as he celebrated. You all know the threads: *endless *discussions about the sign of peace, kneeling vs standing for communion, position of the hands for the Our Father, the music, receiving on the tongue, the ad orientum position of the celebrant, etc., etc.

BTW, I was not able to observe the hands position of the congregation during the Our Father because the cameras focused on the altar. Some of the cardinals used a closed praying hands position, while others held their palms upward.

Unfounded is the word I used, because I could see nothing of these objectors’ practices in the papal mass last evening. If the above were so wrong a practice for the Church, and not in accord with V-II as some allege, I believe the pope would have celebrated according to the ideas of our dissenters - he did not.

As for the lesser items mentioned in your post, I do not believe this is the norm in the majority of Churches of the US. Some of he ones you mention are already addressed in the link by Lux, and are permitted; i.e., female altar servers. repositioning of the tabernacle (which is not at all my idea, either), nonordained lectors and readers, baptisms within mass.

I have a hard time understanding how the congregation at large is able to lay on hands during a baptism. Not knowing the directives for sacraments, which is understood fully by the priest, I cannot comment. We are discussing the N.O. mass in the thread title, so the matter of altars and statues being changed or removed, is not really an abuse, but rather an affront to one’s preference, can we agree on this?

And the terminology observed occasionally in “some” churches, while it is offensive to many, is it really a grave abuse, per se? Also, who can certify that the robes used by servers are an abuse. It is objectionable to one’s preference for seeing the servers dressed in cassocks, but I doubt very much that it is forbidden to use more simplistic garb.

So we have very little left to discuss from the list, no?

Net, I wonder how many saw Father Corapi’s presentation on *scandal *Saturday night at 10 P.M. It broke my heart to hear him speak about the horrors experienced by innocent, dedicated, holy priests because of all these public defamations of the few. He indicated that he knows many, many good priests who suffer on account of their brothers, himself included.

He stressed that, “there but for God’s grace, go I” and that we have no right to judge them. It is up to ecclesial authority to discipline them, while we have a personal responsibility to pray and do penance for them. He took part of the blame for perhaps not having prayed enough, or having done reparation for this.

After Father’s talk, I read some intense chapters this weekend from St. Catherine of Siena who wrote in her Dialogue the very words from Our Lord condemning the sin of those who disparage His priests, even though their actions may be evil. Awesome reading, and maybe some day I’ll reprint it.

Father’s tape is for purchase on his website.

Carole

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

Net, I wonder how many saw Father Corapi’s presentation on *scandal *Saturday night at 10 P.M. It broke my heart to hear him speak about the horrors experienced by innocent, dedicated, holy priests because of all these public defamations of the few. He indicated that he knows many, many good priests who suffer on account of their brothers, himself included.

He stressed that, “there but for God’s grace, go I” and that we have no right to judge them. It is up to ecclesial authority to discipline them, while we have a personal responsibility to pray and do penance for them. He took part of the blame for perhaps not having prayed enough, or having done reparation for this.

After Father’s talk, I read some intense chapters this weekend from St. Catherine of Siena who wrote in her Dialogue the very words from Our Lord condemning the sin of those who disparage His priests, even though their actions may be evil. Awesome reading, and maybe some day I’ll reprint it.

Father’s tape is for purchase on his website.

Carole

Fr. Corapi’s talk was about Priest sexual scandals. Many good priests have had to change their ways of hugging and loving children because of the sins of those Priests. This was not at all about liturgical abuses or innovations which are self evident. No one scandalizes a Priest who does not do them. I’ve heard Fr. speak of it before.

And it’s easy to say that those who starve for a NO mass without innovation are “the few”. With a wave of the hand, we are marginalized.

How about some prayer and pennance for those who are so uncomfortable with the innovations in our parishes that they leave? Why is it so hard to let those feelings be validated?

If you’re a homosexual, we have a ministry for you
If you cheat on your spouse, we have a ministy for you.
If you abuse alcohol or drugs, we have a ministry for you.
BUT, if you want a mass without innovation that looked like the mass you knew in 1970, you need to be more Christian and get over it.
The Priests are overworked and stretched to the limit. The liturgical commitees and DREs run with whatever THEY want. This is the problem. And along with this, instead of looking at the issue, innovations, they make the problem with the persons who do not want the innovations.
Amazing!

And where was this

As for the lesser items mentioned in your post, I do not believe this is the norm in the majority of Churches of the US. Some of he ones you mention are already addressed in the link by Lux, and are permitted; i.e., female altar servers. repositioning of the tabernacle (which is not at all my idea, either), nonordained lectors and readers, baptisms within mass.

stated? Female Altar servers, non ordained lectors nor baptism IN MASS (the laying of hands by the congregation is the problem) were not mentioned in the post.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Net,

Where was it stated? Here, in your post this morning:

Well you touched on the first few points how about the rest?
6)Pizza Hut Churches
7)Stripping of the Altars
8)Destroying the original High Altars and flipping them around
8)Removal of tabernacle from center of Church to some obscure spot (out of sight, out of mind…)
9)Removal of Frescoes, Icons, and Statues from Churches
10)Guitars and Drums replace Angelic Choirs
11)White Bathrobes replace the Cassock and Surplice of the Altar Boys and Alcolytes…oh yeah, and now **women **are now Altar “servers”
12)Non Ordained Lectors and Readers

1. “Table” instead of “Altar”
2. “Fellow Christians” instead of “Fellow Catholics” (Priest addressing the parish)
3. Shorter Eucharistic prayers to create more time for “preaching”
4. Priest instructing parishoners to hold hands with each other during the Our Father (not a big deal I suppose but kindof liberal)
5. Baptisms being partially performed in the middle of Mass with parishoners "laying on their hands."

I’ll respond further in a separate post.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

oh yeah, and now **women **are now Altar “servers”
12)Non Ordained Lectors and Readers

1. Baptisms being partially performed in the middle of Mass with parishoners "laying on their hands."

I’ll respond further in a separate post.

I apologize for missing the first two, the third is about parisioners laying hands not the Baptism during mass.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Net,
I addressed the laying on of hands in paragraph 5:

I have a hard time understanding how the congregation at large is able to lay on hands during a baptism. Not knowing the directives for sacraments, which is understood fully by the priest, I cannot comment.

Re: Father Corapi’s talk. Generally, yes he was speaking about the sexual scandal, but the points he made throughout the talk (which I taped) apply to those who are demeaning the clergy publicly for other supposed abuses, many of which are simply people’s own discontent with not having their likes accomodated.

I spoke elsewhere about the sad situation where one of our members has probably heard and read so much about it that she questioned whether the priest himself was valid celebrant. It conditions the viewers of these threads to likewise become scrutinizers of the actions of their priest for every possible deviation that might be wrong, and become a public sounding board repeating all of their so-called infractions of law.

For those of you who truly suffer from definite abuse, you have my sympathy and prayers. Nevertheless, it gives nobody license to keep the sordid details going, because of the harm it does to the reader/listener. Maybe I should reprint St. Catherine’s words, but I doubt those who need to read them will take note. And we wonder why the Church is in such turmoil.

You may remember Father’s closing words then, when he spoke about St. Francis of Assisi being carried to a priest who had a mistress, for his accusers wanted St. Francis to condemn him. Instead, he knelt down, kissed his hands, and replied, “These hands give me Jesus!” The sinful priest reportedly converted on the spot.

When I see posts like **dumspirospero’s **who say that:
I agree…lets just think about a few things I can think of off hand that was changed in the Mass, but was not mandated by VII…it is just an invention that Priest and Bishops have just decided to inject.
**
… then I get rather indignant, for he is not reporting truth. Some innocent reader may not check it out and repeat it, and for that false alleging, he and others bear grave responsibility. It could be, though, that dumspirispero also got his information innocently from a similar thread and is himself repeating it.

Many of the very things he itemized, were contradicted in person by the Pope as I saw the Mass he celebrated yesterday, and through teachings from other Church documents.

And it’s easy to say that those who starve for a NO mass without innovation are “the few”. With a wave of the hand, we are marginalized.

Net, that was a valid NO Mass on TV, but how many would accept that there was in fact, a sign of peace, communion in the hand, standing for communion, and all the other things that they feel are abuses? I think they are demanding a piety that is not being used by the Pope himself. Yes, I believe we need to do penance for them, for their overzealousness is causing division.

There is hope, for we have a new year, a new pope, and hopefully there will be more uniformity within the liturgy. Some folks just get too tied up in knots over things that have nothing to do with “bringing us Jesus” as St. Francis so beautifully expressed. I may not like some things with my own preference, but there is no way I would ever leave the Church over it to find my own style.

God bless you in the New Year!

Carole

 

[dumspirospero]

I am confused…are you saying the Pope encourages the things I listed or condemns them??? Anyways…I take it as you say he is condemning the things I listed…therefore, I can think of a lot of things that have been condemned by the Pope and official Church teachings…yet they continue to occur in our churches today…So please tell me how my statement is false. The burden of proof lies upon you. It is a FACT that those things I mentioned were not requirements stemming from VII…it is just things that Priest, Bishops, and Laypeople have decided to do…and it doesn’t matter if the Pope celebrates a Mass properly…or he condemns certain actions, etc…the fact is there are still rogue priest and bishops who ignore authority and do whatever they want to. Does that make you indignant?

Joysong:

When I see posts like **dumspirospero’s **who say that:
I agree…lets just think about a few things I can think of off hand that was changed in the Mass, but was not mandated by VII…it is just an invention that Priest and Bishops have just decided to inject.

… then I get rather indignant, for he is not reporting truth. Some innocent reader may not check it out and repeat it, and for that false alleging, he and others bear grave responsibility. It could be, though, that dumspirispero also got his information innocently from a similar thread and is himself repeating it.

Many of the very things he itemized, were contradicted in person by the Pope as I saw the Mass he celebrated yesterday, and through teachings from other Church documents.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

Net, that was a valid NO Mass on TV, but how many would accept that there was in fact, a sign of peace, communion in the hand, standing for communion, and all the other things that they feel are abuses? I think they are demanding a piety that is not being used by the Pope himself. Yes, I believe we need to do penance for them, for their overzealousness is causing division.

There is hope, for we have a new year, a new pope, and hopefully there will be more uniformity within the liturgy. Some folks just get too tied up in knots over things that have nothing to do with “bringing us Jesus” as St. Francis so beautifully expressed. I may not like some things with my own preference, but there is no way I would ever leave the Church over it to find my own style.

I never said that a mass with innovations was not valid. I definitely never said that any mass from the Vatican is not. I watched that mass and if some of our posters could just get a mass that pious, there would be no complaint.
A mass with jugglers and clowns is licit but how many of us want to attend it.

And while YOU personally would not leave the Church over the innovations, I have seen many that do. Yet, the innovations are something that we are suppose to accept, like them or not. Want to talk about overzealousness is causing division!

Until the distain for traditions is eliminated, you will have the people walking away. When a Lutheran service is more pious than any mass in an area, there is a problem.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Dr. Bombay:

Yes, although it could very well be more. Some people are “Traditionalists” at heart, but because they prefer Mass in the vernacular facing the people, they don’t self-identify as Traditionalist.
.

True true Dr. Bombay. There are other legit reasons as well why a faithful Catholic who considers themselves to be “Traditionalists” don’t attend a TLM.