G
GregChant1545
Guest
Been there, read that.
- Status
N
netmilsmom
Guest
katherine2 said:
I get your humor, but what would you call what those nuns are doing?
It looks like a scene from “King Kong” to me.
K
kk1727
Guest
The idea that the entire Novus Ordo was written by six protestants is patently false. The Concilium was comprised of upwards of 225 individuals. It included individuals such as:
J. Wagner, Director of the Liturgical Institute of Trier;
A Haenaggi, University of Friboourg, Switzerland
SJ. Jospeph A. Jungmann, orthodoxy unquestioned.
C. Vagaggini, Professor at Sant’ Anselmo, Rome; Despite Xxxxx’s assertion, he is no modernist at all, and very Orthodox.
T. Schnitzler, parish priest from Cologne, Germany.
P. M. Gy and Pierre Jounel of the Institute of the Liturgy, Paris France
L. Agustoni, a parish priest from Switzerland;
L. Bouyer and L. Gelineau, French religious order priests
Source: Kenneth Whitehead, James Likoudis, The Pope, the Council and the Mass The Christopher Publishing House, W. Hanover, Massachusetts, 1979, p. 87.
The idea that it is invalid is even more pedantic.
Pax,
Keith
G
GregChant1545
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
They are burning the last cigars and cigarettes in San Francisco since the city fathers banned public smoking.
C
CharlesT
Guest
I joined the Catholic Church as an adult a little over 20 years ago. I’ve fufilled my Sunday obligation every week since then in numerous parishes in the U.S. and Europe. I’ve never seen anything like the images shown on this thread.
From my experience, these pictures are sad and shocking (and perhaps scandalous), but not widespread.
I’d add only two other points:
First, when I was a teenager (pseudo-protestant, mainly agnostic) in the very early 70s I attended a retreat for teenagers sponsored by the local Catholic church for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. At the end of the retreat there was a Eucharistic celebration in which all were invited to participate and take communion. I have no idea if this event was “licit or illicit” (see other threads on this topic), but I do know that it launched me on a projectory that eventually lead me to conversion.
Second, the people attending the Masses in these pictures were attending Mass as opposed to NOT attending.
Best wishes.
From my experience, these pictures are sad and shocking (and perhaps scandalous), but not widespread.
I’d add only two other points:
First, when I was a teenager (pseudo-protestant, mainly agnostic) in the very early 70s I attended a retreat for teenagers sponsored by the local Catholic church for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. At the end of the retreat there was a Eucharistic celebration in which all were invited to participate and take communion. I have no idea if this event was “licit or illicit” (see other threads on this topic), but I do know that it launched me on a projectory that eventually lead me to conversion.
Second, the people attending the Masses in these pictures were attending Mass as opposed to NOT attending.
Best wishes.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Oh Please!
These circuses are not Masses, they are messes.
C
CharlesT
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Sorry, I don’t understand (honestly). Are you saying that these are invalid Masses?
F
Fogny
Guest
Hello,
That is the mystical or counterfeit Christ, so above,so below.
Fogny
B
bear06
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
If you looked at my post, you’d see that I don’t stick my head in the sand. I’m all for Catholic activism but, as with our case, Rome will save us, not those who whine and cry about what they don’t like and who or what they perceive to be responsible for the abuses.
One reason that Rome doesn’t do anything is that nobody provides them with as much concrete evidence as we did. Yes, there have been people writing letters to complain for years. However, they’re never quite sure who to believe considering we have dissenters on both sides of the spectrum. The reason Rome said this was so convincing was that it was irrefutable evidence that could in no way be construed as hearsay evidence. It was all in the wacky priests’, bishop, etc., own writing or, as in the clown mass, streaming video of their performances. Rome didn’t have to wonder if this was someone being hypersensitive, making things up, etc.
All it does to post the garbage like this on forums such as this is aid in the spreading of the scandal. When that CD-Rom went out to people, not the whole internet, it went out Cardinal Ratzinger’s request so that people who have the same kinds of problems in their diocese could see what format works. I do wish a copyright had been put on it so we didn’t have to see the pictures used to condemn Vatican II or the Pauline Mass. This was not the intent of the people that put it together. In fact, the intent was to have Vatican II followed, which a clown mass isn’t doing.
So, people need to ask themselves what they are really doing to evoke change. Whining, crying and posting scandalous pictures to people on this forum ain’t gonna do it. If you don’t like what’s going on in your diocese, I’d suggest you invest in a CD burner, scanner and digital recorder and make yourself a pretty little CD so you can get a bishop like Bishop Vigneron to clean up the mess made by the dissenters. Cardinal Ratzinger has let our group know that this CD we sent made the biggest impact on the appointment of bishops that has ever been seen at the Vatican. This has also been confirmed by a priest who works in the Congregation for the Bishops. Viva technology! Hopefully people will use it in a constructive way rather than to spread scandal to everyone they meet such as websites like Traditio do.
Are you aware of how many parishes don’t have clown masses? It’s not common place.
If you looked at my post, you’d see that I don’t stick my head in the sand. I’m all for Catholic activism but, as with our case, Rome will save us, not those who whine and cry about what they don’t like and who or what they perceive to be responsible for the abuses.
One reason that Rome doesn’t do anything is that nobody provides them with as much concrete evidence as we did. Yes, there have been people writing letters to complain for years. However, they’re never quite sure who to believe considering we have dissenters on both sides of the spectrum. The reason Rome said this was so convincing was that it was irrefutable evidence that could in no way be construed as hearsay evidence. It was all in the wacky priests’, bishop, etc., own writing or, as in the clown mass, streaming video of their performances. Rome didn’t have to wonder if this was someone being hypersensitive, making things up, etc.
All it does to post the garbage like this on forums such as this is aid in the spreading of the scandal. When that CD-Rom went out to people, not the whole internet, it went out Cardinal Ratzinger’s request so that people who have the same kinds of problems in their diocese could see what format works. I do wish a copyright had been put on it so we didn’t have to see the pictures used to condemn Vatican II or the Pauline Mass. This was not the intent of the people that put it together. In fact, the intent was to have Vatican II followed, which a clown mass isn’t doing.
So, people need to ask themselves what they are really doing to evoke change. Whining, crying and posting scandalous pictures to people on this forum ain’t gonna do it. If you don’t like what’s going on in your diocese, I’d suggest you invest in a CD burner, scanner and digital recorder and make yourself a pretty little CD so you can get a bishop like Bishop Vigneron to clean up the mess made by the dissenters. Cardinal Ratzinger has let our group know that this CD we sent made the biggest impact on the appointment of bishops that has ever been seen at the Vatican. This has also been confirmed by a priest who works in the Congregation for the Bishops. Viva technology! Hopefully people will use it in a constructive way rather than to spread scandal to everyone they meet such as websites like Traditio do.
C
CrusaderNY
Guest
Bear
They dont listen, I have written to my bishop as have others here in DRVC in New York, and Egan in New York and though Cardinal Egan is much more Orthodox I must admit, he cleaned up the mess we had in our seminary up in Westchester, they dont want to hear about Orthodoxy. They always throw Vatican II back in your face. But when the Voice of the Faithful talks people listen.
bear06:
They dont listen, I have written to my bishop as have others here in DRVC in New York, and Egan in New York and though Cardinal Egan is much more Orthodox I must admit, he cleaned up the mess we had in our seminary up in Westchester, they dont want to hear about Orthodoxy. They always throw Vatican II back in your face. But when the Voice of the Faithful talks people listen.
G
GregChant1545
Guest
I have some association with Dunwoodie and it seemed to be fine under both Cooke and O’Connor. Egan cleaning up a mess? Doubt it very much after what he left behind in Connecticut.
D
Defensor_Fidei
Guest
Gee Whiz,
Even the hardcore trads over on Catholic Convert dismiss the Mess list. Weak!
-Ted
Even the hardcore trads over on Catholic Convert dismiss the Mess list. Weak!
-Ted
B
bear06
Guest
Letters do little, I agree. Maybe your going about it in the wrong way. Like I said, Cardinal Ratzinger said the CD-rom was the way to go. Many in our diocese wrote letters for years. Like I said, Rome doesn’t know who to believe unless they see it for themselves. Rome has appointed lots of good bishops lately because people are now using tactics like ours.
BTW, I think they should throw Vatican II at the faces of all. I just don’t think it should be their wacky view of it though.
P
pnewton
Guest
Combating the heresy (denying the Real Presence of Christ in the eucharist) you are expressing here is one reason not to expand the indult. Fortunately, this sort of schismatic thought represents a small minority of traditionalists.
Valid matter, valid holy orders and valid words of consecration always results in the real presence of Christ, whether is be at the TLM, the Latin Rite or other Catholic rite. Also, the Orthodox churches have maintained valid orders and thus have valid consecration.
P
pnewton
Guest
The proliferation of photographs are totally irrelevant without context. Sombody suggested one was a Baptist Church. A few months ago an Episcopal service was presented as a Catholic Mass.
At best they are anecdotal. What percentage of Masses invlove clowns or dancing nuns? I sure do not know and have never seen them. If it is less than 5%, then it hardly represents the Catholic Church. Is it less than 1%? If so, then the websites that post these photos as “proof” of where the current Mass has taken us is engaging in deception and propaganda and show a total lack of integrity.
At best they are anecdotal. What percentage of Masses invlove clowns or dancing nuns? I sure do not know and have never seen them. If it is less than 5%, then it hardly represents the Catholic Church. Is it less than 1%? If so, then the websites that post these photos as “proof” of where the current Mass has taken us is engaging in deception and propaganda and show a total lack of integrity.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Are you aware of how mny parishes may not have clown masses but have dancing girls or matter that is not correct!!! The parish I just left does. And glass vessels, soccer masses etc, etc…
Read this forum. You are sticking your head in the sand.
I lived it and many posters here do also. If you stick your fingers in your ears and say “lalalalala” you’ll be lifting up your hands for the Our Father waving your hands and flicking your bic, as it all becomes the norm.
A few start to change the mass because the “rubics never said we couldn’t that we couldn’t” and the abnormal becomes the normal.
I’m on more than one of these boards, trust me, the subtle abuses are worse than the clown masses any day.
C
CrusaderNY
Guest
Picture sent to me, with the Archbishop wearing a slice of cheese…hmmm would Padre Pio or those priests who perform the traditional mass put a piece of cheese on their heads? http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0209j.jpg
Abp. Timothy Dolan Sports the Latest Episcopal Attire, a Cheesehead Mitre.
pnewton:
Abp. Timothy Dolan Sports the Latest Episcopal Attire, a Cheesehead Mitre.
C
CrusaderNY
Guest
Another where the priest is using a dorito or chip for the host. I myself sat through a first communion service in St Anthony’s here in New York where the priest used a bagel, an actual bagel to show these new young impressionable First Communion children that any forms of bread even a bagel if he as a priest prays over it and says “the magic words” it will become the body of christ…like abracadabra!!!
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
pnewton:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
K
kmktexas
Guest
In reference to the OP on the “New Rosary”, I am constantly amazed that this is even an issue for contention. However, increasingly I see this as a topic for derision, especially amoung the SSPX and other ultra-trad sites.
Yes, Our Lady called for more Rosary prayer when she came to Fatima. I have never seen any reference to her saying that the rosary should always contain 15 mysteries, no more or less.
However, even if she HAD said something like that, this is private revalation. While Fatima is an approved apparition, the messages given are not binding on the faithful.
The Rosary itself is primarily a private devotion. The faithful are free to say it in a number of different ways. It has changed a lot over the centuries. The Pope proposed five new mysteries which can add meditation opportunities for those who say the Rosary. If you don’t care for them, don’t say them. Absolutely nothing was taken away from the Rosary. There are people I know who only say the sorrowful mysteries because they prefer to meditate on Christ’s passion. Are they somehow disobeying our Lady? I don’t think so.
As a private devotion, people add to it all the time even when saying it publically in a group. The Fatima prayer is an addition, not part of the “official” rosary. So are the prayers for the Pope, the “O my God, relying on your infinate mercy …” etc. Here in VZ the prayers after the Hail Holy Queen take more time than the whole five mysteries said before the HHQ. The rosary is a wonderfully flexible prayer.
The ONLY possible valid objection that I have ever encoutered involves the indulgences for saying the Rosary. These publications mention the 15 mysteries. However, indulgences are assigned by the Popes so this could easily be changed and may already be included.
Yes, Our Lady called for more Rosary prayer when she came to Fatima. I have never seen any reference to her saying that the rosary should always contain 15 mysteries, no more or less.
However, even if she HAD said something like that, this is private revalation. While Fatima is an approved apparition, the messages given are not binding on the faithful.
The Rosary itself is primarily a private devotion. The faithful are free to say it in a number of different ways. It has changed a lot over the centuries. The Pope proposed five new mysteries which can add meditation opportunities for those who say the Rosary. If you don’t care for them, don’t say them. Absolutely nothing was taken away from the Rosary. There are people I know who only say the sorrowful mysteries because they prefer to meditate on Christ’s passion. Are they somehow disobeying our Lady? I don’t think so.
As a private devotion, people add to it all the time even when saying it publically in a group. The Fatima prayer is an addition, not part of the “official” rosary. So are the prayers for the Pope, the “O my God, relying on your infinate mercy …” etc. Here in VZ the prayers after the Hail Holy Queen take more time than the whole five mysteries said before the HHQ. The rosary is a wonderfully flexible prayer.
The ONLY possible valid objection that I have ever encoutered involves the indulgences for saying the Rosary. These publications mention the 15 mysteries. However, indulgences are assigned by the Popes so this could easily be changed and may already be included.
J
JesseJr
Guest
The ordination rites for priests have likewise been changed, so who knows if they are even valid priests. You should already KNOW this.
Invalid priests “consecrating” with invalid liturgy invalid substances (i.e.) grape juice, flour cookies, dorito chips, etc.
Jesse Jr.
“gig some fish aggie”
Invalid priests “consecrating” with invalid liturgy invalid substances (i.e.) grape juice, flour cookies, dorito chips, etc.
Code:
As for those who wrote the novus ordo mess they were all part of that dastardly group the "Rhine Fathers" who superimposed their will on the council (Vatican II) and confiscated it making it the most evil of all meetings in the Church. The liturgical commission was comprised of those 6 Protestant ministers and additional changes were made to the liturgy by another committee...again all from Switzerland and Germany. So there reign your pedantic ravings. Even one of the committee resigned years later stating he was ashamed to belong to it and felt it was ruining and invalidating the liturgy.
The novus ordo is as invalid a mess as it could ever possibly be. Again, invalid ordination rites "consecrating" invalid substance with invalid liturgy=no consecration=no graces“gig some fish aggie”
- Status