"Novus Ordo" vs. "Ordinary Form" - What in the world do we call the Mass of Paul VI?

[ElToro]

Anathama Sit –
Some folks get all in an uproar about how to refer to the two forms.Don’t worry about one person’s reaction. Even if El Toro meant it as an “attack,” that doesn’t mean you have to let it bother you. You didn’t intend any insult.

I didn’t attack anyone.

 

[ElToro]

I personally find EF derogatory. I know it is used by the Pope. I am speaking of how it makes me feel.

Extraordinary - outside of the ordinary.

The OF has been ordinary for less than 50 years. How long has the Latin mass been around?

And yes I know some will say the EF is not the same as the Tridentine etc, but it’s basically the same.

I find your posting sad but extremely honest.

It’s stunning to me that any Catholic Christian would find a label coined by Pope Benedict XVI to be “derogatory.” I know a priest who feels just as you do. His take (and I quote) “EF reminds me too much of extraordinary minister.”

 

[Anathama_Sit]

In his Summorum Pontificum, Benedict calls it the “Ordinary Form.”

And it really doesn’t matter to me if someone calls it the Ordinary Form or the Novus Ordo any more that if someone calls the old mass the Tridentine or the Extraordinary Form.

Greetings YoungTradCath,

Am I able to find the Summorum Pontificum on the Vatican website? If not where could I get this document?

Thank you.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Outside of here I just say the Mass or the current Mass. If I must differentiate, i use ordinary Mass.

Greetings Pnewton,

I am finding myself desirable of asking you this question about your avatar. Why in the world is the cat biting the hand that pressed “New Thread?” I have to say I enjoy that avatar greatly, sometimes I find myself sitting and watching the animation over and over again to give my eyes a rest.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings to all who have posted in this thread,

I have prayerfully considered your answers. There are many good points brought up on both sides.

I have noted with less chagrin why some people call the Mass of Paul VI the Ordinary Form. But these same people have pointed out that our Holy Father refers to these Masses in this manner. If it is good enough for the Pope, then by God’s grace it will be good enough for me.

For those who have brought up the fact that some people may be offended at the using of Novus Ordo, you have brought up a point that needed to be considered by me.

I wish not to offend so I will be calling the Mass of Paul VI as the Ordinary Form of the Mass and the Triditene Latin Mass as the Extraordinary Form. It sits in my craw to do this, but I am sure as time goes by, it will get easier to do so. Please I beg the patience of the forum if I slip up and say Novus Ordo Mass as it is a deeply ingrained habit.

Thank you again for answering this question and expressing your views honestly. I also wish to express my thanks for the charity that you have displayed in addressing your answers to me.

God bless all of you.
Anathama Sit

 

[pnewton]

Greetings Pnewton,

I am finding myself desirable of asking you this question about your avatar. Why in the world is the cat biting the hand that pressed “New Thread?” I have to say I enjoy that avatar greatly, sometimes I find myself sitting and watching the animation over and over again to give my eyes a rest.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

The cat, like all cats are a type of Satan, preventing the inquiring sinner from seeking Truth of the Catholic faith. Or I maybe I just like the cat.

 

[ElToro]

In his Summorum Pontificum, Benedict calls it the “Ordinary Form.”

And it really doesn’t matter to me if someone calls it the Ordinary Form or the Novus Ordo any more that if someone calls the old mass the Tridentine or the Extraordinary Form.

And it really doesn’t matter to me if someone calls it the Ordinary Form or the -]Novus Ordo/-] Pauline any more that if someone calls the old mass the Tridentine or the Extraordinary Form.

Much better. “Novus ordo” is a slur. Four years is enough time.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I wasn’t offended. But if this exchange would have taken place in real life I would have quietly walked away from you as politely as possible. The use of “novus ordo mass” in this day and age is a big time red flag in my world.

The Mass’s actual name is the Mass of Pope Paul VI. I hope no one disagrees with that. Colloquially the Mass of Pope Paul VI has also been known as the “Pauline” (“Paul-Line” not “Paul-Lean”) Mass. Though it was never the Pauline Mass’ name some also have colloquially referred to it as the “novus ordo mass” based on a description of the Mass when it was first promulgated many years ago.

Along comes the ever-brilliant Pope Benedict VXI. It’s clear he realizes that “novus ordo mass” is viewed as an invective by a growing number. It’s clear he also realizes there are several names for the Mass that preceeded the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Some refer to it as the “Tridentine Mass.” Some as the “Traditional Latin Mass.” Some as “the Mass of the Ages.” Some use invectives like “the dead mass.”

In his wisdom the Pope coined two very clean and succinct names for the two Masses. The Ordinary Form (OF) of the Mass for the Pauline Mass and the Extraordinary Form (EF) of the Mass for the Tridentine Mass. Done deal, right? Nope, some people still like to use the invectives. Some even use slurs like “NO mass.”

Since the Pope made his announcement I have never heard anyone use the label “novus ordo mass” who did not prefer the EF Mass. It’s use is a very subtle jab at the OF Mass. I have even seen people on here use “EF Mass” and still cling to using “novus ordo mass” in the same posting. To me it’s use is largely one of bigotry and in some rare cases simple ignorance.

It’s not all bad though. Its use in real life is a red flag. More often then not it’s a caution that I don’t want to discuss anything with the person using it.

Greetings ElToro,

I am thankful that we did not meet in real life, because then dialogue between us two would not have been possible. I have to say your initial response to my other post in my other thread caused me to think and post this thread.

I prayed before I went to sleep that you would not take this thread in a bad way, because it was not meant to be done in a bad way, and I am thankful that my prayer was answered.

Thank you for your charity, honesty, and forthcoming in providing your answer.

God bless you.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

The cat, like all cats are a type of Satan, preventing the inquiring sinner from seeking Truth of the Catholic faith. Or I maybe I just like the cat.

Greetings Pnewton,

I happen to be quite fond of cats. I like your answer. Your avatar seems to be the most memorable, I was scanning once again through this thread, and I found myself staring in fascination at the computer screen again.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[JRKH]

Greetings YoungTradCath,

Am I able to find the Summorum Pontificum on the Vatican website? If not where could I get this document?

Thank you.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

Here is a link to the Document: Motu Proprio - Summorum Pontificum

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

There are actual canonical (legal) reasons why the Pope used the terms “Ordinary” and “Extraordinary”. Brother JR went into detail is this thread back in May.

Basically, something that is Ordinary is essentially mandated. All diocesan priests must learn the Ordinary Form. Something that is Extraordinary cannot be mandated (diocesan priests can’t be forced to learn or celebrate the EF, or pastors cannot be forced to use EMHC).

Thank you for the clarification and the link. Brother JR is always a good source on these matters.

Peace
James

 

[ProVobis]

I personally find EF derogatory. I know it is used by the Pope. I am speaking of how it makes me feel.

Extraordinary - outside of the ordinary.

The problem seems to lie with the translation then. (So what’s new?)

The Pope used the terms “Forma Extraordinaria” and “Expressio Extraordinaria” and meant them in a complimentary and flattering way. All’s one has to do is to read the SP. That we chose to use it as a comparison with the lay ministers of Communion is most unfortunate.

A similar argument could be made for “Novus Ordo Missae.” Not knowing Latin, in our “translation” we dropped off the Missae and the acronym “NO” became derogatory to many. I doubt if the Pope expected such a backlash over the terminology he used.

Originally Posted by curlycool89
There are actual canonical (legal) reasons

Maybe but if you’re going to introduce canons here I would suggest Canon 249 where priests (and seminarians) are required to study Latin.

 

[agnes_therese]

I didn’t attack anyone.

I didn’t accuse you of attacking anyone – sorry if it seemed so. I said “if” you meant it that way, because the OP said “I realize that this signature is in response to my other thread, and I feel a bit attacked.” No insult was meant by his use of the term “Novus Ordo.”

 

[Cat]

There really is no such thing as the Tridentine Mass. The Usus Antiquior goes back further than Trent. The Forma Extraordinaria is the 1961 typical edition of the Mass which was codified by Pope Pius V a few years after Trent. In that same document the Pope abrogated all liturgies brought into use after 1370 AD. The Usus Antiquior obviously was not one of them.

THANK YOU! Bless you!

Several years ago, our esteemed bishop, an orthodox and conservative Catholic who has encouraged the EF Mass in our city for two decades, wrote a column stating this very fact that you have stated and explaining his statements with great clarity and obvious expertise.

I brought this up on CAF and was excoriated, and my bishop was denounced as a “modernist.”

So now I keep my mouth shut, usually.

But I still grit my teeth and hiss whenever I see someone use the incorrect term “Tridentine Mass.” I can’t help it, especially when such a person claims to be a good, traditional Catholic. IMO, a good traditional Catholic should strive to be utterly scrupulous when it comes to adhering to the historical facts.

To the OP–my feeling about the names has to do with the “attitude” that someone holds. If someone uses a derisive tone of voice and a sniff and toss of the head when they refer to one of the two forms of the Latin rite, then I don’t care which “initials” they are using. It’s the attitude that’s wrong. But if someone refers to either form with graciousness and reverence, then again, I don’t care which “initials” they use–it’s their loving attitude that is a blessing to all.

I think it makes sense to use the terms that the Holy Father uses, so that there is unity of speech, which often leads to unity of hearts. We should not seek to be divided into factions, but rather, we should seek to practice our personal Mass preferences, but remain united in our devotion to Christ and His Church.

I also believe that if using a certain term is hurtful to a fellow Catholic that you are in constant contact with, especially if the contact is in person, not just online, I think it is a charitable thing to drop using that certain term, even if it is perfectly correct, and use the less hurtful term instead. It’s just a little thing, and no harm is done by using a term that is not your personal choice.

 

[TrueLight]

But I still grit my teeth and hiss whenever I see someone use the incorrect term “Tridentine Mass.” I can’t help it, especially when such a person claims to be a good, traditional Catholic. IMO, a good traditional Catholic should strive to be utterly scrupulous when it comes to adhering to the historical facts.

Not everyone has had years of studying Latin or history. It’s good to be corrected, but it takes time to learn, especially when everyone around you uses terms interchangebly. I don’t see why being a traditional Catholic means you have to be perfect or “utterly scrupulous”, anymore than anyone else has to be. Is that what is important in one’s walk with Christ, that one gets a certificate in history or correct terms?

So hiss away whenever you have the chance.

 

[Cat]

Not everyone has had years of studying Latin or history. It’s good to be corrected, but it takes time to learn, especially when everyone around you uses terms interchangebly. I don’t see why being a traditional Catholic means you have to be perfect or “utterly scrupulous”, anymore than anyone else has to be. Is that what is important in one’s walk with Christ, that one gets a certificate in history or correct terms?

So hiss away whenever you have the chance.

Perhaps I hiss because I and my bishop were labeled “modernists” by “traditional Catholics” when I used my bishop’s column to try to explain the reasons why there is no such thing as the “Tridentine Mass.” I didn’t see much openness to truth back then.

But you’re’ right, I shouldn’t ascribe the flaws of the few to the whole.

And although I agree that one does not need a certificate in history, a Christian must be careful to stick with facts. Just because someone has a walk with Jesus doesn’t mean that they are walking down the right road. As you know from your experiences in the Protestant realm, many Christians have walks with Christ and love him very much. Does this mean that they should remain Protestant, because the “facts” about Catholicism don’t matter? Of course not. We should strive to help our Protestants relatives and friends find their way back home.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Now we have the OF which is an organic development of the Mass. The EF continues to be allowed. Some prefer the OF, others the EF. I am solidly in the OF, properly celebrated (Latin, propers, etc), camp.

We should not let what is essentially an aesthetic preference become a point of division between us, otherwise we risk falling into schism.

You make good points but the 2 underlined bits are questionable. The problem is that the change was everything but organic, and that there is more to the question than aesthetics.

I use Novus Ordo when talking to people who know what these things mean in the first place, but have started using EF here on the forum. I guess it is just more PC to do that in the current climate.

 

[Digitonomy]

some also have colloquially referred to it as the “novus ordo mass” based on a description of the Mass when it was first promulgated many years ago…

In his wisdom the Pope coined two very clean and succinct names for the two Masses. The Ordinary Form (OF) of the Mass for the Pauline Mass and the Extraordinary Form (EF) of the Mass for the Tridentine Mass. Done deal, right?

Well, no. The pope did not prescribe a new name for these forms of the mass. He merely provided several descriptions of the mass. He never recommended use of EF and OF over previously used terms, and he never recommended use of EF and OF over the other descriptions in Summorum Pontificum and its accompanying letter.

ElToro:

Since the Pope made his announcement I have never heard anyone use the label “novus ordo mass” who did not prefer the EF Mass.

I have good news for you! I prefer the new rite, and I have on occasion used the term “Novus Ordo.”

 

[Bran_Stark]

I find it very ironic that the English Mass is called by the Latin abbreviation NO, while the Latin Mass is called by the English abbreviation TLM.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

And it really doesn’t matter to me if someone calls it the Ordinary Form or the -]Novus Ordo/-] Pauline any more that if someone calls the old mass the Tridentine or the Extraordinary Form.

Much better. “Novus ordo” is a slur. Four years is enough time.

Get over it. Novus Ordo is not a slur. the Mass of Pope Paul has been referred to by that title since its inception and. so by or reason it has been being slurred from the being, even by the ones that promulgated it.

Those that find it offensive are looking for a reason to be offended. So Use Novus Ordro. Use Ordinary Form. Use Extraordinary Form. Use Old Latin Mass. Use Tridentine Mass. Because no matter what words you use it how you use them and you can be just as offensive with any of the terms if that is your goal.

On a happy note we had a visiting priest at my parish today celebrating the Novus Ordo Mass and it was wonderful.