Now Maybe More Lutherans Will Come Home to Rome

  • Thread starter Thread starter Old_Convert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As for a mass conversion to Catholicism…I wouldn’t bet on it. I see a move of many of the ELCA’s more conservative congregations and members to either form their own new synod, or join the Wisconsin Synod or the Missouri Synod. Though I have to admit that if this continues and this kind of moral relativism creeps into the Missouri Synod, then you might get an influx of new members.
Click to expand...
It is not a matter of numbers in a particular church but to keep our Blessed Lord’s desire to see all His children united in worship without divisions. His Church is One, Christ Her Cornerstone and Peter Her Rock.
We need so much prayer for the unity of all our brothers and sisters who are away from the Church of Jesus Christ, to come back Home soon.
The Body of Christ is incomplete without some of Her members
In JMJ
 
hobbitofny said:
I did not join this forum for this kind of writings, but I also I need to defend Orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
You did not need to defend it at the expense of Catholicism.
The Apostolic Constitutions 7.4 says that St. Linus was the first Bishop of Rome, ordained by St. Paul, and was succeeded by St. Clement, who was ordained by St. Peter. This is in keeping with Orthodox understanding of the events. St. Peter and St. Paul are both honored in June each year.
Click to expand...
Irenaeus

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

“[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).

The Little Labyrinth

“Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter” (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).
In 381, the First Council of Constantinople declared that “The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the Bishop of Rome, because it is New Rome” (canon iii). The Council of Chalcedon in 451 Canon 28 grants equal privileges (isa presbeia) to Constantinople as of Rome because Constantinople is the New Rome as renewed by canon 36 of the Quinisext Council.
Click to expand...
And where do you see in Sacred Scripture and Tradition that the Bishop of Rome, i.e., Peter, shall lose that primacy over the Church (or did the gates of Hell prevail)? And canon 28 was rejected by the Church, in the the Council of Chalcedon.
The mother Church of the Christian faith is Jerusalem. Here the church was born. Here the first council held meeting. It is not Rome or any other city.
Click to expand...
The Church was born in Jerusalem. . . and . . .how does this negate the office of St. Peter who was given primacy and responsibility of the Church for feeding, tending (which in greek also means govern) and strenghtening the sheep (and held the keys) to his following successor via Rome?
The breach of 1054 is made clear by the capture and sacking of Constantinople by Latin Crusadeers in 1204. The Church of Holy Wisdom was looted of her holy relics, her holy vessels for Holy Communion, and many other items!!! They have not been returned and are still held by the West. Visit St. Mark in Venice and see some of the stolen items. In 2004, Pope John Paul II extended a formal apology for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204; the apology was formally accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople.
Click to expand...
The Latin crusaders acted independently of the Church, and from my understanding looted Constantinople because they were promised but denied (as there wasn’t money in the treasury to pay them) by the rightful king of Constantinople for services rendered. They basicallly took things into their own hands, and this was wrong, yet they were persuaded by the rightful heir of the throne to fight on his behalf for such monetary rewards.
You can date it later, but the acts of 1204 are clear signs that the ties were cut. I assume you were uses as a date the Council of Florence. This attempt at reunion was rejected by Orthodox people as a whole. If as you clam the split was not present in 1204 then the actions on the Church of Holy Wisdom are even more shameful.
Click to expand...
Again, the Latin crusaders were acting independently of the Church.
 
Bluegoat said:
Perhaps someone Orthodox could better say, but I have heard mixed reviews of how the Western Orthodox parishes are doing. Of course some Orthodox are against anything different, but even among others, there are some indications of certain kinds of difficulties being encountered. My reading of the situation, which may be way off, is that the hierarchy is going to move slowly with this, and not let it get ahead of itself and turn into a problem.

There are some who think that the OCA’s recent overtures to disenfranchised Anglicans may indicate that they are looking to incorporate a Western Rite.
Click to expand...
The Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia has Western Rite using Sarum Rite. Antioch Orthodox have two rites: St. Gregory and St Tikhon. St. Gregory is the traditional Latin Mass in English. St. Tikhon is the Book of Common Prayer revised to reflect Orthodox faith. That means the liturgy has prayers to the Mary and the saints.

I have talked to only one Orthodox who opposed any western rite. Most understand a need for the rite. I personally prefer the Sarum rite. It is still the Mass of St. Peter, but the translation captures the traditional Mass very well in English.

I am not sure how interested most Protestants are in these rite. I know mostly Anglicans came to use them. I have never found a former Lutheran using the rites.

I do not think these rites will be a factor in bring ELCA people to the Orthodox Church.
 
I’ve always been trying to choose between Lutheranism and Catholicism. Well, God chose for me!

This is the final straw, I’M COMIN’ HOME TO ROME! 😃
 
Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD.
Click to expand...
That’s the catholic church, the orthodox split off some time after 1000 A.D.
Since the day of Pentecost we have not been overpowered. We are not at risk. Our faith has held through Soviet efforts to overpower it.
Click to expand...
The same could be said of the catholic church. .
We hold to faith of the Apostles and the unaltered faith expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople.
Click to expand...
But the apostles apparently followed a pope.
The Church will not be overpowered.
Click to expand...
No it won’t. I guess this is an argument about which one “the church” is. Since the orthodox split away from the church, that means either the Catholic church is correct, or the original church was “overcome by the gates of hades”, which the bible says shall not happen.
 
hobbitofny said:
From my prospective, if you are sharing in Communion with them, that would imply accepting the policies.
Click to expand...
When I share Communion with anyone, I am sharing in the Body and Blood of our Lord, his gracious gift, and not each and every belief that fellow partakers of the Sacrament may hold.
 
TristanCross said:
I’ve always been trying to choose between Lutheranism and Catholicism. Well, God chose for me!

This is the final straw, I’M COMIN’ HOME TO ROME! 😃
Click to expand...
“You have not chosen Me, it is I Who have chosen you” said the Lord.
I’ll pray for your heart to be on fire for our Lord. Blessed be His glorious name!!!
Welcome Home brother!! 👍
 
Personally I get the distinct impression that as these sorts of things continue to happen (and that has been a definite trend) we are all going to be “forced” to work together more and more closely, regardless of our differences. What I mean is that even the free protestant churches have their heresies–word of faith; health and wealth; The CC has seen all sorts of goofy innovations in some parishes in the wake of Vatican II; the OCA seems to have so many variations that there isn’t really a solid univocal approach (that’s my impression talking to a friend of ours who’s served as an OCA priest in KC; Nashville and upstate NY); the Presbyterian, Anglican and even Baptist churches are all over the place. It’s as if the spirit of our age is dividing the churches into secular and traditional, for lack of a better description.

If they all come “home to Rome” that’s great, but for many there are so many issues that it probably isn’t a realistic possibility. Hopefully ecumenical dialogues strengthen ties between all of the more traditional theological communions because this trend is going to do some serious damage in the public perception and acceptance of what the “Church” really looks like.

Lord help us . . .
 
Bluegoat said:
Alix,

So I gather that you are for the Gay and Lesbian pastors?

Ufamtobie
Click to expand...
Um, he just said that he wasn’t.

Thanks for defending me. (Though I am a she not a he) I am LCMS, so I am certainly not for having homosexual clergy or allowing them to marry in our churches. I am saddened and appalled by these events and how it is being reported as “lutherans” deciding to do this rather than just the ELCA.

Thanks again bluegoat.
 
It is my hope that any Lutherans or other Christian refugees from denominations gone psycho (sounds like we should market that into DVD’s, “Denominations Gone Psycho”) join the Roman Catholic Church not because they are running away from something but rather because they’re running toward Catholicism. Some folks I’ve met seem like they like the pro-life, anti-gay marriage, anti women’s ordination facets but they’re not totally sold on a host of Catholic theology. It’s important to run toward something and not be in a state of fleeing. A healthy period of discernment, meditation, and a massive dose of prayer needs to be present before just rushing away from the carnival of crazies.
 
I (we) left the ELCA 20 years ago. Why, you ask. Simple. The ELCA in the early 1980s started the fall into total theological liberalism. They became a “religious social club.” The issues we had with them are nothing like today, gay pastors and so forth, rather the absence of any real application of Biblical teaching in the lives of the members and no real gospel message from the pulpit. My pastor was not in my opinion a Christian. Martin Luther would not recongnise the ELCA even 20 years ago. They have strayed far.

Of those Lutherans that are still in the ELCA that take the Bible seriously, a small percentage I’m sure, they will look elseware within the Lutheran groups like the LCMS. Yes, a few will head to Rome but the bulk will stay and those who do look elseware for greener pastures will in my humble opinion be attracted to the more conservative Presbyterian and Methodist/Wesylan groups because the service looks simular. Where they end up really depends on how much research and thought they put into the thing. Those who really agonize over it will find themselves in a much more conservative setting than what they are currently used to. The Lord will use this situation in a few, to wake them up.

By the way, 20 years ago when I left the ELCA, I also left Lutheranism. I do know some very good Christians that are Lutheran in spite of the fact that their churches are liberal to the core. Even conservative/fundamental Baptists have a respect for Martin Luther. They disagree with him on some points to be sure but they don’t hate him the way catholics do. From what I know of Lutherans, it is a large jump for them from Augsburg to Rome. One scenerio where disalusioned Lutherans may make that leap is if one spouse is Lutheran and the other is catholic but they belong to a Lutheran church.
 
TristanCross:

Welcome home! :clapping: I’ll be praying for you all the way. :gopray2: May God shower you with abundant blessings!

To the other poster who said that Catholics “hate” Martin Luther. This is not true. My parents and grandparents were Lutheran, and I’ve been a Catholic for almost forty years now. I do not hate Martin Luther. I feel sorry for him, and I pray for him. He was a very intelligent man in many, many ways. He did, however, say some horrible things about the Catholic Church. Still, you should hear my parish sing “A Mighty Fortress is Our God!” Contrary to what you may have heard about Catholics who don’t sing in church, my parish can really belt this one out.

When the Church goes into any new culture, it incorporates the good, and leaves the bad behind. Peace and blessings!
 
Jon_Hus said:
I (we) left the ELCA 20 years ago. Why, you ask. Simple. The ELCA in the early 1980s started the fall into total theological liberalism. They became a “religious social club.” The issues we had with them are nothing like today, gay pastors and so forth, rather the absence of any real application of Biblical teaching in the lives of the members and no real gospel message from the pulpit. My pastor was not in my opinion a Christian. Martin Luther would not recongnise the ELCA even 20 years ago. They have strayed far.

Of those Lutherans that are still in the ELCA that take the Bible seriously, a small percentage I’m sure, they will look elseware within the Lutheran groups like the LCMS. Yes, a few will head to Rome but the bulk will stay and those who do look elseware for greener pastures will in my humble opinion be attracted to the more conservative Presbyterian and Methodist/Wesylan groups because the service looks simular. Where they end up really depends on how much research and thought they put into the thing. Those who really agonize over it will find themselves in a much more conservative setting than what they are currently used to. The Lord will use this situation in a few, to wake them up.

By the way, 20 years ago when I left the ELCA, I also left Lutheranism. I do know some very good Christians that are Lutheran in spite of the fact that their churches are liberal to the core. Even conservative/fundamental Baptists have a respect for Martin Luther. They disagree with him on some points to be sure but they don’t hate him the way catholics do. From what I know of Lutherans, it is a large jump for them from Augsburg to Rome. One scenerio where disalusioned Lutherans may make that leap is if one spouse is Lutheran and the other is catholic but they belong to a Lutheran church.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on all these points, JH. I also must say, though, that I don’t hate Luther. I have read volumes on him and his works intrigue me. While many Catholics like Warren Carroll think Luther was a diabolical entity out to crush Catholicism, I tend to think that he truly believed what he preached and felt the Church had gone astray. He felt his hands were tied, loved the Lord, and didn’t have a master plan from day one to create a Reformation. There is a lot of truth in many of his works mixed in with concepts and statements with which I disagree. And his writings about the Jews, though more religious than bigotted ethnic hatred, bother me. But overall I think many Catholics have a sneaking admiration for his bravery, his impressive knowledge of scripture and theology, and his moxy. It’s easy for some to assign all of their hatred for the reformation into one man. The Reformation was bigger than Luther alone. And I do find it hilarious that “A Mighty Fortress is our God” is still in our music missal at my parish lol…how ironic! 😛
 
Old_Convert said:
TristanCross:

Welcome home! :clapping: I’ll be praying for you all the way. :gopray2: May God shower you with abundant blessings!

To the other poster who said that Catholics “hate” Martin Luther. This is not true. My parents and grandparents were Lutheran, and I’ve been a Catholic for almost forty years now. I do not hate Martin Luther. I feel sorry for him, and I pray for him. He was a very intelligent man in many, many ways. He did, however, say some horrible things about the Catholic Church. Still, you should hear my parish sing “A Mighty Fortress is Our God!” Contrary to what you may have heard about Catholics who don’t sing in church, my parish can really belt this one out.

When the Church goes into any new culture, it incorporates the good, and leaves the bad behind. Peace and blessings!
Click to expand...
Great post, O.C.

It sounds like mine. I read yours after posting my reply. I feel guilty now because it sounds like a carbon copy! LOL
blessings,
Scott
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

There is a man at my parish who graduated from the Lutheran seminary in the town where this decision was made. Last night at Vespers, a Lutheran woman (ELCA) came and shared with us that she is completely bewildered at the state of Protestantism because of the brazen “apostasy in the Lutheran church” (her words). This woman has been reading many of the Fathers and seems to be seeking Apostolic Christianity because of this recent decision.

I cannot verify this yet, but she also said that the church near where the decision was made had the steeple torn off by a tornado after the decision was made. The same thing apparently happened to the Episcopalians where a fire destroyed a church when they allowed for gay clergy. Coincidence? When you’re a Christian, there are no coincidences. :o

In Christ,
Andrew
 
As my friends will tell you, I am not often speechless, but . . . . :hmmm: Why is it that when God speaks, people are so quick to call it a coincidence? Did Lazarus rise “by coincidence” when Jesus said, “Lazarus, come forth!” Not! 👍

God have mercy on us all . . . .
 
Glad to have found this thread! I was born-and-raised ELCA Lutheran, The church I grew up with isn’t associated with the ELCA anymore (we were “too small” so have been able to keep going), and now I don’t want to be, either.

For several years I’ve been trying to stay in the ELCA, thinking, (with the encouragement of my brother-in-law who’s a conservative ELCA pastor) “maybe we conservatives just need to step up and try for change within the ELCA.”

Well, the vote on Wednesday was a sham. 29 people were out for lunch when they suddenly decided to vote on the sexuality statement. My relatives are just sick over the results, and so am I.

I moved to a new community a couple years ago and have been very slow in finding a church. My boyfriend was baptized Catholic and knows that it’s very important to me that we find a church. So we’ve been going to the Catholic church and are planning to take RCIA classes.

My family hasn’t been so supportive, however. Every time I mention it I hear about the abuse scandals, that “the Catholics have changed too, so they’ll probably be going down the same road…” “they worship Mary,” “are saved by works,” etc.

I don’t know how to respond to this…as I think God is calling me to become Catholic, but I don’t know how to answer these questions!

Well anyway, the long-short of it is that I think a sizeable percentage of ELCA Lutherans are saddened by this turn of events, I’m thinking there’ll be a split (imagine that…another split in the Lutheran church :rolleyes:…) and I’m seriously looking for a traditional church that seems to be guided by the Holy Spirit (Catholic or LCMS?).

God Bless!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top