Now Maybe More Lutherans Will Come Home to Rome

[olds442]

I just copied the following article from Comcast.net

Lutherans to allow sexually active gays as clergy
By PATRICK CONDON, AP

MINNEAPOLIS — Leaders of the nation’s largest Lutheran church voted Friday to allow sexually active gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy.

Gays and lesbians are currently allowed to serve as ministers in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America only if they remain celibate. The proposal to change that passed with 68 percent approval.

At 4.7 million members and about 10,000 congregations in the United States, the ELCA is one of the largest U.S. Christian denominations yet to take a more gay-friendly stance on clergy.

The final decision on whether to hire gay clergy in committed relationships will lie with individual congregations.

Some critics of the proposal have predicted its passage could cause individual congregations to split off from the ELCA, as has been the case with other Christian denominations, including the Episcopal Church.

The debate over the so-called “ministry recommendations” got under way first thing Friday, and delegate Al Quie, a former Republican governor of Minnesota, proposed an alternative: “Practicing homosexual persons are excluded from rostered leadership in this church.”

The proposal, which would have left the church’s policy more or less unchanged, failed. Conservatives had lost an important vote Wednesday night when the convention’s 1,045 delegates approved by a two-thirds supermajority a “social statement on human sexuality” that said the ELCA could accommodate diverging views on homosexuality.

The Rev. Katrina Foster, a pastor in the Metropolitan New York Synod, pointed out that the church has ordained woman and divorced people in violation of a literal interpretation of scripture.

“We can learn not to define ourselves by negation,” Foster said. “By not only saying what we are against, which always seems to be the same — against gay people. We should be against poverty. I wish we were as zealous about that.”

If you are a Lutheran of the ELCA and this is the “last straw” for you, come home to the Catholic Church! We welcome you with open arms full of love! Just as we have welcomed many Anglicans and Episcopalians.

God bless you all . . . and let us “keep THE faith together!”

I was a memeber of the ElCA and this was the last straw However I can not return to the Catholic Church. I Will join the Lutheran Church missouri Synod (LCMS). The Catholic Church also allows gays to be Pastors. In Fact there are more Gay Catholic Priest than in any other Denomination. For years The Roman Catholic Church has swept the issue under the carpet I have attended the LCMS worship service in my town they have several worship types from traditinal to comtemporary. I choose the traditional service. They follow the old form of worship. Very much like the old catholic Mass. In Fact their service is closer to the way Jesus taught us how to worship than the new Mass( post Vatican II)

 

[JonNC]

=olds442;5616931]I was a memeber of the ElCA and this was the last straw However I can not return to the Catholic Church. I Will join the Lutheran Church missouri Synod (LCMS).

Welcome to the LCMS.

The Catholic Church also allows gays to be Pastors. In Fact there are more Gay Catholic Priest than in any other Denomination. For years The Roman Catholic Church has swept the issue under the carpet

Apples and oranges. I’ve not heard that the CC *sanctions * sexual activity of their priests, gay or straight. Certainly all Churches have had gays in their clergy. The issue, which you and I agree on, is permitting clergy who are gay to act on it in an intimate way, which is contrary to the teaching of scripture and the Church.

I have attended the LCMS worship service in my town they have several worship types from traditinal to comtemporary. I choose the traditional service. They follow the old form of worship. Very much like the old catholic Mass.

One of the complaints I’ve read from Traditional Catholics is how similar novus ordo is to the Lutheran divine service.

In Fact their service is closer to the way Jesus taught us how to worship than the new Mass( post Vatican II

In what ways?

Jon

 

[Jerry_Parker]

What disturbs me most about the “gay controversy” in the ELCA and in other “liberal” churches is the attitude towards the authority of Scripture. If one can make a Scriptural argument for a permissive attitude about gays (and hence ordination of gays), that is one thing, and, in fact, such arguments have been made very cogently by some practising gay Christians who believe in the Scriptures’ infallibility.

However, those who promote homosexuality in the ELCA and the ELCiC deny the very relevance of Scripture to this issue (and many others) or they quote one passage of Scripture against another, to give an impression of overall scriptural incoherence on the matter. This attitude towards Holy Scripture, denying its inerrancy, pertinence, or clarity, is worse than the approbation of homosexuality per se.

Jerry Parker

 

[JonNC]

What disturbs me most about the “gay controversy” in the ELCA and in other “liberal” churches is the attitude towards the authority of Scripture. If one can make a Scriptural argument for a permissive attitude about gays (and hence ordination of gays), that is one thing, and, in fact, such arguments have been made very cogently by some practising gay Christians who believe in the Scriptures’ infallibility.

However, those who promote homosexuality in the ELCA and the ELCiC deny the very relevance of Scripture to this issue (and many others) or they quote one passage of Scripture against another, to give an impression of overall scriptural incoherence on the matter. This attitude towards Holy Scripture, denying its inerrancy, pertinence, or clarity, is worse than the approbation of homosexuality per se.

Jerry Parker

Good points, all, Jerry. I can’t disagree. I won’t try to convince you to look at the LCMS, and I wish you His blessings in your choice, but did you look at the LCMS, considering their stricter view of scripture?

Jon

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Jon,

**You wrote: ** Good points, all, Jerry. I can’t disagree. I won’t try to convince you to look at the LCMS, and I wish you His blessings in your choice, but did you look at the LCMS, considering their stricter view of scripture?​

Well, of course, I looked at the L.C.M.S. That is the Lutheran group in which I was received! However, I came to realise that the L.C.M.S. is a very “mixed bag”, only seemingly good in some places, horrid in others. Apart from that, there is the seriously erroneous doctrinal, soteriological paradigm regarding Justification that marred the L.C.M.S., the W.E.L.S., and the E.L.S. right from very shortly after the very origins of these Lutheran groups! They never were Confessionally sound.

The doctrinal heresy to which these denominations of the former “Synodical Conference” once belonged, is the so-called “universal objective justification” (U.O.J.) or simply “objective justification” (O.J.) and its corollary, “subjective justification” (S.J.). These doctrines are dreadfully unsound, so much so that it is better to join a conservative Presbyterian denomination and local church than to turn to the L.C.M.S. It is no end grimly amusing that a leading L.C.M.S. theologian once stated how perplexed he was that U.O.J. and S.J. were not mentioned specifically in the Lutheran Confessions, even though he asserted that these concepts are compatible with the Confessions. What a delusion! Anyway, do some “Googling” on these terms and read what adversaries of these doctrinal paradigms have to say about them!

The L.C.M.S. professes a sound approach to Holy Scripture, but such an attitude to the Bible, in such a crucial doctrine as Justification, interpreting it so deadly wrong. invalidates the L.C.M.S.’ claims.

Good luck, troubled Lutheran brother!

Jerry Parker

 

[Bluegoat]

What disturbs me most about the “gay controversy” in the ELCA and in other “liberal” churches is the attitude towards the authority of Scripture. If one can make a Scriptural argument for a permissive attitude about gays (and hence ordination of gays), that is one thing, and, in fact, such arguments have been made very cogently by some practising gay Christians who believe in the Scriptures’ infallibility.

However, those who promote homosexuality in the ELCA and the ELCiC deny the very relevance of Scripture to this issue (and many others) or they quote one passage of Scripture against another, to give an impression of overall scriptural incoherence on the matter. This attitude towards Holy Scripture, denying its inerrancy, pertinence, or clarity, is worse than the approbation of homosexuality per se.

Jerry Parker

Yes, I agree that this is the most disturbing thing.

It is the same in the Anglican Church, and is what more traditional Anglicans keep telling the others, who don’t seem to understand what they are saying. The New Anglicans say - it is an issue of sexuality. We can discuss that and grow in our understanding. The Old Anglicans say - no, it is about the role of scripture and tradition, which we cannot just change without major discussions/agreement/etc.

I haven’t been able to figure out how it is that they just don’t get it. Unfortunately they are supported by the newer liturgies of the liturgical movement, which also assume the newer view of scripture and tradition, although they were officially not supposed to.

It seems to be the same in the ELCA - they just don’t see that they have made a fundemantal change, one that they have no authority to make in the way that they did.

 

[ambrosegirl84]

This “watering down of theology” (in my own mind, anyway) is something I’ve noticed for a long time in the ELCA. The sexuality vote was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back to me.

In reading the statements of belief on the ELCA website, I found that many beliefs are kind of “well, some people believe this, and others this” rather than “our Church teaches this.”
elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Virgin-Birth.aspx

elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/What-the-Bible-Is.aspx

Maybe I’m just stupid:shrug:, but a lot of what I noticed was spiritual, feel-good, gobbledy-gook like “God loves God’s children, so God’s saving grace gathers us in…” which is a good start, but there needs to be more. For me anyway. Lest it become a case of “well, my church doesn’t say anything about it, so it must be okay.” Or, "my church says as long as it’s loving (i.e., feels good and doesn’t hurt anyone) it’s okay. Any religion can teach that God loves God’s children. If that’s all that is taught, then people will develop their own “feel-good” beliefs on things.

So, I see it like a boat…when a boat has holes in it you can try to plug them but if there are more and more holes in it, you’d better get off the boat before it sinks. (I bet that’s a common analogy you’ve heard hundreds of times, but I swear I didn’t read it anywhere! )

Rather than becoming more scripturally/confessionally (is that the term?) guided, the ELCA has drifted further and developed more and more “holes.” Since I’m not the captain I don’t feel the need to “go down with the ship.”

P.S. Could anyone explain (not to hijak the post) what this “soteriological justification” is? I could start a separate topic, if there isn’t one already.

 

[terilamb]

I was glad to see that several members of this forum pointed out the vast difference between the ELCA and the two other main categories of Lutheran (LCMS and ELS). I had attended an ELCA church for almost a year, having fallen in love with the liturgical style of service. I loved this particular church, the music and the people. It broke my heart to leave. But I realized I had to since I could no longer in good conscience be in an ELCA church. It’s not just the recent disturbing developments that are so contrary to God’s Word as regards the acceptance of gay clergy. They also have no strong pro-life stance. don’t take the whole Bible literally, and the ELCA literally believes in universal salvation (i.e., everyone will ultimately be saved). It’s right there on their web site. I wish I had researched all this before I even started attending that church and got so involved and attached. On the other hand, the LCMS definitely is guided by God’s Word. I feel very drawn to the LCMS denomination. Yet, the past few weeks, I’ve attended a church I also feel drawn to and it happens to be traditional (liturgical) Presbyterian. So I’m going to make sure it lines up doctrinally with what God’s Word teaches so the same thing doesn’t happen to me again. The direction the ELCA has gone is shameful and I hope more people will take a stand and leave their ELCA churches. Maybe they will wake up if there is a mass exodus - or not. In any event, I don’t think most people who leave the ELCA will seek to become Catholic. I believe they will seek an LCMS or other conservative liturgical Protestant church as I am in the process of doing.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Bluegoat,

**You wrote: ** *Unfortunately they are supported by the newer liturgies of the liturgical movement, which also assume the newer view of scripture and tradition, although they were officially not supposed to.

It seems to be the same in the ELCA – they just don’t see that they have made a fundamantal change, one that they have no authority to make in the way that they did. *​

Excellent observation! It is one thing to differ over individual passages of Holy Scripture, for whatever reason, and another to embed the newer views on sexuality and of the ordination of hussies into the liturgical formularies of a denomination. The laity encounter only occasionally the few passages that touch on gay sexuality (if, indeed, they do that at all in the case of many passages cited regarding this issue) and on the place of women in the Church. The laity encounters the liturgy constantly, every Sunday for the Mass (Holy Communion, Eucharist, whatever term a particular denomination prefers) and in other services that may be the chief ones for Sunday morning or evening (Matins/Morming Prayer, Vespers/Evening Prayer).

The Protestant Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada’s service books, once altered, are rather slow to change, but Lutheran service books have a relatively long stability, too, compared to “free form” worship. When the nails of feminism and homoerotic approval are nailed into the coffin that holds aberrent and low views of Scripture, a denomination becomes decisively dead to Christ. The wriggling and squirming of death’s agonies are done, sealed, and buried at that point.

Jerry Parker

 

[juls0621]

Thanks to those who replied to me. I think I will make an appt to with the local parish priest to discuss how my family can join. My husband and I were married in an ELCA church, neither had previous marriages or children. Our son was born within our marriage.

My son’s future spirituality must be founded in a safe envioroment where I know the Truth will not change. Now, I know that homosexuality exists in every church. Afterall, sin exists everywhere. In our own hearts. However, the Catholic church, I believe will not change - and I must protect my son. I just wish I had protected myself before I decided to jump ship from the Catholic church to the ELCA. Once I had a strong moral compass in my early 30’s and my “wise” self started to kick in I began to see liberal agenda of the ELCA - I was startled by it. Their abortion stance horrified me when I discovered it a year ago.

I am hopeful that I am making the right decision to meet with a priest and get my son and I on the right track. Hopefully, my husband will follow suit and become a Catholic one day. I will pray for that, but he has to be the ultimate deciding factor. I don’t want pressure him, it is a big decision.

Many thanks once again!

 

[mjakemccoy]

Then, of course, there are those like me who will stay and be voices of continuing opposition to the new policies of the ELCA. Time will tell whether that is a good path to take.

Sir I respect your integrity here. But this is a position that Luther did not make, nor did Henry VIII. They did not stay to reform the Church, but rather started new ones. Today there’s 30,000+ Protestant denominations. If people don’t like it, they start a new Church. Is this what Christ intended? Stop and think about it. Regardless of what you or I say, God is God, He is who He is, and there is but One. He has but one law, yet we’ve devised thousands of churches with limited theological continuity.

I’m not going to say there aren’t Catholic doctrines that confuse the daylights out of me, just look at the Trinity. Purgatory and indulgences are some tough ones. Since I made it back to the Catholic Church I’ve been working on reform, the Church always needs it. These were 2 very difficult issues for me, honestly I still struggle, but I’ve seen too much to deny them, both scripturally and historical precedences set in the early Church. But why were they not entirely rejected until Luther 1500 years after Christ? Selling indulgences is a mortal sin, and it was going on during Luther’s time, it has been reformed. Indulgences go back before the Bible was compiled. Should we challenge the Bible too? Well Luther did that one also. Forgive me if I seem heartless, but this is cold hard history. I’m not here to kick you while you’re down, but rather give you a hand up brother. This is your opportunity to continue down the path of Luther and Henry, or do what neither of them could. Reform the Church, the original, Rome. If indulgences and purgatory are not of Christ, go to Rome and prove it, but do your homework, these are deep theologies that most minds can’t comprehend, so many reject them rather than prove why they are not a sound teaching. More churches is not the answer, we have to take the Church Christ gave us and help it be better. Along the way we just might find it’s us that need the most reform. God be with you.

Jake McCoy

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD.

This is probably not the place to get into a beef about this, but I can’t let it go. The Orthodox Church was NOT founded in 33 AD. That would be the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church was not ‘founded’ until many centuries later. Before that, it was, universally, the Catholic Church. East and west.

 

[Babalu41]

i was really shocked to learn the LUTHERANS!!! were about to ok openly active homosexuals to become clergy. the episcopalians i wasn’t really shocked by but i gotta admit the lutherans shocked me. most lutherans i’ve met were very bible centered and traditional. i can’t believe that this grabbed hold and rooted in the lutheran church.

it goes to show what i said in another thread is true no matter your kink, vice, or gripe you can find a christian church that will ok it and encourage it. christianity stands for literally nothing today, it’s an empty shell.

i don’t have anything against homosexuals at all, but according to christians it is a pretty highly objectionable act, yet here are old traditional churches allowing it openly and actively amongst their clergy. it really is shocking frankly.

 

[ambrosegirl84]

Well, the sad thing is that I don’t think the decision reflected the beliefs of the majority of the ELCA, and DEFINITELY not the beliefs of any other church body (LCMS, etc.). There were 1,045 people voting at the assembly out of a church body of more than 4,000,000. As my sister (an ELCA pastor’s wife) said, that was about like the average weekly attendance of a summer service at her church, which by the way, does not support the sexuality statement.

Not to mention the fact that 29 people had already gone to lunch when they pushed the vote through early. To have the same number as one week’s attendance at one church vote on a matter that affects a whole church body is NOT a way to represent the beliefs of that church body. I’m thinking this will result in yet another split.

I’m starting to see it as a personal push for me to “go Catholic,” something I’d thought about a few years ago, as well.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Personally I get the distinct impression that as these sorts of things continue to happen (and that has been a definite trend)

“These sorts of things” have been happening since the 16th Century. What’s new about the splintering of protestant sects into ever more protestant sects?

What I mean is that even the free protestant churches have their heresies–word of faith; health and wealth; The CC has seen all sorts of goofy innovations in some parishes in the wake of Vatican II;

The goofiest occurred at Vatican II in the prominent place given to protestants, who were allowed to alter our liturgy into a lifeless imitation of their own. The goofy innovations in many parishes followed immediately after.

If they all come “home to Rome” that’s great, but for many there are so many issues that it probably isn’t a realistic possibility.

The ‘issues’ are all imposed by the protestant heresies of the 16th Century. The Lord promised to send the Spirit to lead His Church to all truth (Jn. 16:13) and to be with Her to the end of the world (Mt. 28:20). Once those promises are understood and accepted, there are no issues.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

To the other poster who said that Catholics “hate” Martin Luther. This is not true.

Speak for yourself, Old Convert. ‘Hate’ is a strong word, but I assure you, this is one Catholic who has nothing, and I mean nothing nice to say about Martin Luther. If he was an intelligent man, it was on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. The rest of the time he was a profane, boorish, arrogant heretic whose hatred for the Catholic Church survives to this day in millions of his progeny.

 

[wisdomseeker]

“These sorts of things” have been happening since the 16th Century. What’s new about the splintering of protestant sects into ever more protestant sects?

The goofiest occurred at Vatican II in the prominent place given to protestants, who were allowed to alter our liturgy into a lifeless imitation of their own. The goofy innovations in many parishes followed immediately after.

The ‘issues’ are all imposed by the protestant heresies of the 16th Century. The Lord promised to send the Spirit to lead His Church to all truth (Jn. 16:13) and to be with Her to the end of the world (Mt. 28:20). Once those promises are understood and accepted, there are no issues.

very good saying. indeed very good.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

…My boyfriend was baptized Catholic and knows that it’s very important to me that we find a church. So we’ve been going to the Catholic church and are planning to take RCIA classes.

My family hasn’t been so supportive, however. Every time I mention it I hear about the abuse scandals, that “the Catholics have changed too, so they’ll probably be going down the same road…” “they worship Mary,” “are saved by works,” etc.

I don’t know how to respond to this…as I think God is calling me to become Catholic, but I don’t know how to answer these questions!

You’ve provided your own answer: ‘God is calling me to become a Catholic. Talk to Him’

If their anti-Catholic attitude rests on the abuse scandal, let them know we Catholics are as indignant as they are and deplore the scandal even more than they do. I’ve always believed there is no group of individuals on earth who satan attacks more viciously than Catholic priests. No doubt he got to many of them, but they are not the Church. Jesus Christ is the Church. The gates of hell may attack her, but will never prevail against her.

Well anyway, the long-short of it is that I think a sizeable percentage of ELCA Lutherans are saddened by this turn of events, I’m thinking there’ll be a split (imagine that…another split in the Lutheran church …) and I’m seriously looking for a traditional church that seems to be guided by the Holy Spirit (Catholic or LCMS?).

God Bless!

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Tangentially, I read frequently on the Beliefnet.com site that Roman Catholics are leaving for the Episcopal Church in steady numbers. I don’t know how to verify this. I hope it’s not true. But there are alot of people there who claim to be what they call “XRCs”.

It’s probably true and for the better. Too many ‘Catholics’ think they can pick and choose which doctrines of the Church they will follow and which they can reject. That’s a pretty fair definition of protestantism. The Pope has said it may be the Church will end up much smaller than it is today, but populated with people who are true, faithful Catholics. Can’t happen soon enough for me.

 

[Harpazo]

This is probably not the place to get into a beef about this, but I can’t let it go. The Orthodox Church was NOT founded in 33 AD. That would be the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church was not ‘founded’ until many centuries later. Before that, it was, universally, the Catholic Church. East and west.

Rather then derail the thread, you could possibly start a new one? Although this has been discussed ad nauseum.

In Christ,
Andrew