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Brad
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So you don’t think she was using a figure of speech then?
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mlchance
Guest
Corporal punishment is not an option in any of the schools in the Galveston-Houston Diocese. It is also an option that isn’t needed by any teacher worth his salt. With my students, the most I ever have to do with almost all of them to enforce discipline is simply make eye contact. It’s been years since any student ever made a serious effort at bucking my authority.
For example, I had an 8th grader who got booted out of computer class for rubbing his hands on the monitors to build up a static electricity charge so that he could shock a girl by touching one of her breasts. When I pointed out that his actions could be construed as sexual assault under Texas law, his response was something to the effect of, “Big deal. Nobody around here’s gonna do anything to me about it.”
He was suspended for three days and on his way home in an hour. He ended up missing a fourth day when his parents just sent him to school without coming in for the mandatory conference with myself and the parish priest.
Threatening a student with bodily harm is not only not an appropriate means of enforcing discipline, it is just plain unprofessional and unnecessary.
It doesn’t matter. The comment, figure of speech or not, was unprofessional.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Brad
Guest
Teachers make mistakes and are human also. If only you had the same determination to stop physical attacks that kids make on other kids.
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Brad
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So the kid got to skip school for 4 days after commiting sexual assault?
Are you kidding me?
This is punishment?
You might think it was handled professionally but what did it solve? 100 to 1 the kid did/ or will do something as bad or worse unless his parents did something very unprofessional with him
In most cases today, the parent does not.
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Brad
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An unprofessional comment should cause termination or even arrest?
Go back to my high school and fire every one of my teachers.
Sometimes you have to talk to kids in their language so they understand - they don’t always use professional language. It worked with the teachers in my high school. The once that were threats had order. The ones that were dainty had chaos.
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mlchance
Guest
Yes, it was. The odds of anything happening to the boy in a court of law to press the criminal matter were virtually nil, and certainly wouldn’t have occured in anything less than one year to eighteen months. And that was only the tip of the iceberg. There were strict requirements for his readmission to the school. He tried to buck these, and was gone within another week, never to return. All accomplished without a single threat of physical harm.
Which is only sensible since threatening a student with physical harm is not appropriate.
I never said that, now did I?
Today’s fallacy: the False Dilemma.
– Mark L. Chance.
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rayne89
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Not interupt the debate here. But an incident came to mind that occured when I was in 2nd grade. A boy in my class kept getting up out of his seat. After repeated warnings finally the frustated teacher said, “If you don’t stay in your seat I’m going to tape you to your chair.” Well in a few minutes he did it again. She got out a roll of masking tape and taped this kid to his chair, and she wasn’t skimpy on the tape either. She probably would have got fired if she did that today.
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misericordie
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Ray Marshall:
I waish we had more nuns like this: what has happened? We have become so darn politically correct. Now, there HAVE been very abusive nuns and brothers, fear is not a proper way to educate: if a kid continues to have discipline problems IN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS(private by the way) just expell him or her permanately!! But many ultra anti men feminist PRINCIPALS of Catholic elementary PARISH schools are also flower children and whimps. I know, last year I was a religion teacher under one in a PARISH elementary school here in Manhattan the Archdiocese of New York=FULL of these women who because they could not become priests literally RUN the Education department in the Archdiocese of New York.
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Emmy
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You don´t threaten a kid with physical harm, you should
teach there are other ways…
Emmy
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otm
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I think, as I said before, that there is more to this story than we are seeing.
I also have no question that she was out of line.
I also strongly suspect that this was not an isolated incident.
As I said before, I support corporal punishment, but in a much more limited sense than a number of people who use it. And corporal punishment doesn’t, in my book, include an adult hitting or punching a child in the face, or threatening to do so.
There is an old saying: “If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.”
I fail to see anything in the facts given that justify any type of corporal punishment; but even presuming that going up the wrong stairs is worthy of inflicting some form of corporal punishment, that should be administered by the principal or the dean of discipline (or the equivalent) in an appropriate setting (the principal’s office or the restroom). Striking the child in the face has no business in any school. Neither does threatening to do so.
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otm
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I agree that it is weak administration. However, it is an urban myth that all is chaos. ?Some of it is. Some of it isn’t; it depends on the school board, and the school administrator.
Anti-Catholic secular has nothing to do with it. On the face of it, there is grounds to prosecute. It isn’t like this has been a secret, kept from Catholics, or selective prosecution.
The question isn’t how much money it would take. the question is which criime, out of thousands, they will prosecute. They don’t bother with the one’s that have high likelyhood of failure for lack of evidence. As I keep saying, there is more to this story than we are seeing.
No, I am not assumning anything. I am saying that within the facts given, there is nothing that merits corporal punishment for the act. I say further, that if the act was deserving of corporal punishment, then the child should have been takaen to the appropriate authority to have it administered. There was no need for a threat of physical violence. That doesn’t require imagination; it requires common sense.
You are right. The child showed no respect by ignoring authority and thus was threatened with punishment. He was breaking a commandment correct?
He may have been breaking a commandment, or he may have simply not been paying any attention. It may have been intentional, or purely accidental. Without more facts, I can’t judge. But even assuming that it was intentional, I fail to see why it is deserving of corporal punishment; and if it was deserving, then it should have been administered properly by the proper authority.
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otm
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If acting as a bully is her means of “committing her life to the church” then we have a very intriguing sense of committment and of church.
My ideas aren’t twisted. They are based on both the Gospels and common sense.
I suspect underneath all of this is the question(s) of what is the meaning of discipline, and the meaning of respect.
The root of discipline has to do with teaching. I tie this very closely to respect, as to what I want taught. I want the child to learn respect; if I want to teach it, I must also do it; if I fail to show respect, the message I am teaching is that respect is a one way street ("You respect me, and I don’t have to respect you). That is self-defeating.
In teaching respect, I expect that the failure on the part of the child to show respect will have repercussions; but I also expect those repercussions to be measured and proportionate.
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otm
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I have many times heard parents, and others in a position of authority, threaten children. But you seem to imply that because “everyone” is doing it, that it is ok, or even correct.
To begin with, kids have a very clear sense of what is going on, to wit: the parent (or other) is angry, is speaking in anger, and is generally losing some sence of control over the child.
The child also gets a really clear picture of respect, shown by the lack thereof; this makes for a rather interesting lesson; Do as I say, not as I do.
You seem to pass off anger and threatening speech as no big deal; then you remark as to how many children show no respect.
A good deal of the problems we have with kids out of control is the fact that parents have not demanded rtespect from their children. Another element of the problem is that parents haven’t shown any respect to their children.
Discipline is not an either/or; either hit the child or let them run wild. Discipline needs to be consistent, respectful, appropriate to the issue and proportional. Threatening to knock a child’s teeth out is none of that.
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otm
Guest
Here we differ. I say that God didn’t make any threats. He made promises. There is a hugh difference; a threat is something you say to attempt to change another’s behavior, with no real intention of carrying out. A promise is just that; continue, and this will happen; and when it continues, the promise is kept.
Yes, I think that a kid who slugs another should not be threatened; there should have been rules in place that the child was acquainted with the first day of school ( and reinforced by repitition periodically), and when the slugging started, the punishment should have been inflicted immediately. I absolutely would not threaten that child. I would carry out the promise I had already made.
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otm
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Your hyperbole is showing…
And that is part of the difference. I did not make threats to my kids. I made promises. I kept my promises.
I did not threaten them with bodily harm; I did not threaten to knock their head off, or beat them to a pulp, or slap them silly, or beat them like a bad dog, or choke them, or strangle them, or any other such violent act. I didn’t need to. They knew what was expected of them; they knew (and experienced) the consequences of bad behavior. They also knew when they did right, or did well, as I was lavish with praise. They weren’t perfect, but I was constantly told of how well my children minded and behaved (to which I often replied “That is because they are not given an alternative.”, which often drew some funny looks).
In the heat of the moment, Sister might have yelled at the child, or threatend (i.e., co intention of carrying it out) to send him to the principals office. I can deal with that. Threatening violent bodily harm of the nature she threatened? She’s a bully.
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otm
Guest
This started as a nun threatening a child who was going up the wrong stairs. That is not a physical attack on another student.
I fail to see that the comments showed any lack of will to stop students from assaulting other students. Furthermore, to stop that, you don’t threaten to knock their teeth out. You separate the students and have the admninistration apply the appropriate punishment, which also does not involve knocking their teeth out, or threateining to knock their teeth out. It usually involves suspension or eviction.
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otm
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Would you care to quote published studies showing that parents in most cases do nothing, or is this just one more urban myth?
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otm
Guest
and therein lies much of this discussion. Too many people see it as an either/or; threaten the child with inappropriate physical violence, or there will be no rules at all and total chaos.
I spent two years in a Jesuit high school. None of the priests or scholastics I had stooped to the level of threatening physical assault on any of us. The dean of discipline on occasion meted out physical punishment (we called it “spats”) as seen as necessary. No one was threatened with having their teeth knocked out. Most of us walked a straight line; those that didn’t were “encouraged” to get back in line; one or two couldn’t manage that, and they managed to go to another school.
Discipline can be managed in an appropriate manner that respects the integrity of the student. People who resort quickly to physical punishment and unnecessary and inapproriate threats rarely have the control they think they have over the child, and almost never get the respect they think they deserve.
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Brad
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Umm. Sexual assault is so inappropriate he should have been immediately expelled if no adequate forms of punishment are possible (by the school) or given (by the parents) Fortunately, it is what ultimately happened - but it should have been response #1.
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Brad
Guest
There are other ways. Explain them to the kid who gets his nose bloodied by a school bully for wearing the wrong clothes.
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