NYPD Cannot Profile

[Richardols]

Rand Al'Thor:

Are you referring to movies, or to a few isolated incidents in which the officers where charged with assault afterwards?

No, to what was SOP when I was young, in the 50s and 60s. The cops in Jersey City, e.g., were regular practitioners of that “art.” You can be sure none of them were ever charged with assault.

 

[Richardols]

shockerfan:

Routine? Do you have statistics to back that up? “Routine” implies that a majority of police did this? Is that your claim? (I know its not…I have read many of your posts, but you as a lawyer should choose your words more carefully

Okay. “Common” is a better word. BTW, I didn’t say anything about a majority of police.

If you read my post, I specifically mention “Muslim”. However, statistically speaking, the majority of Muslims are from the middle east and share a number of common visible traits.

Yeah. They look like Omar the Tentmaker.

I don’t have the stats to back that last statement up. It is an opinion formed from life experience, and what I read in the media.

Well then, okay. It’s your opinion. Fair enough, though my opinion is to the contrary.

 

[shockerfan]

Richardols:

Okay. “Common” is a better word. BTW, I didn’t say anything about a majority of police.

I didn’t say you did. The word I used was “implies”

Richardols:

Well then, okay. It’s your opinion. Fair enough, though my opinion is to the contrary.

You still didn’t address my comment about statistics / probability. From a purely objective perspective, profiling makes sense. Can I assume from your non-response that libs don’t do math? From they way the are against the revenue increasing tax cuts, I don’t think they do.

 

[Richardols]

shockerfan:

From a purely objective perspective, profiling makes sense.

And using the third degree on criminals might make sense. Doesn’t mean that those tactics should be used.

Can I assume from your non-response that libs don’t do math? From they way the are against the revenue increasing tax cuts, I don’t think they do.

Mercy! Do you want to turn this discussion into one about tax cuts for the wealthy? I pass.

 

[wabrams]

Richardols:

And using the third degree on criminals might make sense. Doesn’t mean that those tactics should be used.

It’s pretty much been proven, even by your own testimony, that torture doesn’t work. Beating a suspect is the same as torturing. Profiling does work, it’s been proven to work. It has been abused in the past, but so has every other effective tool the police have.

 

[shockerfan]

Richardols:

And using the third degree on criminals might make sense. Doesn’t mean that those tactics should be used.

Mercy! Do you want to turn this discussion into one about tax cuts for the wealthy? I pass.

Gee, I guess I gave you a way out of addressing the FACT that reducing the sample size for random checks to Muslims (since they represent 0.4% of the US population) instead of randomly checking everybody, would be a more effective use of our limited resources.

Since you can’t do math, I’ll do it for you. Lets say that there are 100 Al Qaida suicide bombers in the US, just waiting for their orders. Using the 2001 Census stats:
census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf
the odds of finding one of the Al Qaida suicide bombers by randomly checking Muslims is 188 times better than if you randomly checked the entire population. Refining the sample to those Muslim males between the ages of 18-40 won’t eliminate the threat 100% but it will increase the odds of our law enforcement personnel finding them. Wow. Isn’t math cool!

 

[Lucania]

Why are there people who have to whine and make a big stink about everything? If white women betweeen the ages of 17 and 50 fit the usual terrorist profile and I had to be checked to ride the subway because I fit that profile, go ahead! Guess what? The terrorists are the BAD GUYS! They want to destroy us and our way of life! If I had to be searched, so what! It’s for the greater good of our Country! I am so sick of all the political correctness in this Country. It will be our downfall, I’m afraid. If the authorities cannot search the ones who are a high profile, then search EVERYBODY.

 

[Servant1]

mjdonnelly:

Anyone know how to say this above phrase? In latin please

I do!

 

[Servant1]

“the brass”? Of what? The “brass” of the NYPD. So it was the NYPD that decided that no racial profiling was to take place.

And, of course, you used racial profiling when you were a cop. Some people selected for that practice called one form of profiling “driving while black.”

Yep - but I was responding to the quote in your post, which was not your words, but somebody else’s. To be more accurate the PC politicians decided to tell/instruct NYPD that no profiling was to take place, and the brass dutifully passed that out in public statements.

Did I do racial profiling when I was a cop? Nope. I did whatever profiling fit the crime I was trying to either solve or prevent. If race was a part of that, it was included. If race was not a part of it, it was not included. Simple fact is that in some crimes, race and other factors are part of the profile. If you ignore that, you seriously diminish your ability to carry out the policing function.

 

[Servant1]

shockerfan:

From a purely objective perspective, profiling makes sense.

YOU have proceeded to hit the nail squarely upon the head!

 

[Richardols]

shockerfan:

Gee, I guess I gave you a way out of addressing the FACT that reducing the sample size for random checks to Muslims (since they represent 0.4% of the US population) instead of randomly checking everybody, would be a more effective use of our limited resources.

And how are you going to check all the Moslems? Make them wear a red crescent on their coats like the yellow Mogen Duvid that the Jews had to wear in Nazi Germany?

Perhaps you could order all Moslems to report to their local police precinct to be checked. The cops could give them an Inspection sticker to fasten to their red crescent as proof of non-terroristhood.

And, then you’d whine when the ACLU would challenge the crescents and the inspection stickers. Right-wingers are sooo predictable.

 

[aimee]

Richardols:

And how are you going to check all the Moslems? Make them wear a red crescent on their coats like the yellow Mogen Duvid that the Jews had to wear in Nazi Germany?

Perhaps you could order all Moslems to report to their local police precinct to be checked. The cops could give them an Inspection sticker to fasten to their red crescent as proof of non-terroristhood.

And, then you’d whine when the ACLU would challenge the crescents and the inspection stickers. Right-wingers are sooo predictable.

Ahh not a bad idea

 

[wabrams]

aimee:

Ahh not a bad idea

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[wabrams]

Richardols:

And how are you going to check all the Moslems? Make them wear a red crescent on their coats like the yellow Mogen Duvid that the Jews had to wear in Nazi Germany?

Perhaps you could order all Moslems to report to their local police precinct to be checked. The cops could give them an Inspection sticker to fasten to their red crescent as proof of non-terroristhood.

And, then you’d whine when the ACLU would challenge the crescents and the inspection stickers. Right-wingers are sooo predictable.

Oh yeah. We all know how predictable a left winger is: oh no sir! you can’t stop any male that looks between the ages of 15 to 50, fair to dark skin, black hair, facial features that aren’t Latino but not quite European. Oh heck no, that would be unfair! We must stop everyone, from a toddler to grandma in a wheel chair. We certainly don’t want Johnny Jihad or any of his ethinic bretheren to feel singled out.

 

[grotto]

Besides, we can have government jobs for nonprofiling inspectors! I’ll bet the fat swimmer will write that into the budget! (but only if they are unionized)!

 

[shockerfan]

Richardols:

And how are you going to check all the Moslems? Make them wear a red crescent on their coats like the yellow Mogen Duvid that the Jews had to wear in Nazi Germany?

Perhaps you could order all Moslems to report to their local police precinct to be checked. The cops could give them an Inspection sticker to fasten to their red crescent as proof of non-terroristhood.

And, then you’d whine when the ACLU would challenge the crescents and the inspection stickers. Right-wingers are sooo predictable.

Left wingers are sooo predictable. Ignore facts, statististics and mathematical probabilities. Become emotional and melodramatic. Concentrate on your “feelings”. Indict all those in law enforcement by calling abuse “routine”.

In your liberal mind, checking out 90 year old white women makes much more sense then checking out Muslims aged 18-40, because we don’t want to offend anyone. Protecting feelings are much more important that protecting lives.

Oh, I wonder how you will respond, but I am sure you will ignore yet for the fifth time that reducing the sample size for background checks to those that fit the profile of a terrorist, Muslim men aged 18-40, will dramatically increase the probability of rooting our actual terrorists.

 

[kaymart]

Random checks, profiling and anything else should be done to protect our citizens. But profiling only Middle Easterns are not enough ANYONE that looks suspious (remember Timothy Mc Viegh-he looked like an all American Boy) But more checks on Middle Easterns have to be done. If we have to endure a little inconvience for the safety of all so be it. I would rather get up an hour earlier today then to never get up tomorrow. I know it must be hard on the innocent Middle Easterns that have to endure this but we have to think of safety as a whole. If Blonde hair, white women in their late 40’s were being targeted for profiling, and I had nothing to hide, I would not be upset. It’s a fact of life.

 

[Richardols]

wabrams:

We must stop everyone, from a toddler to grandma in a wheel chair.

Sooo predictable conservative exaggeration, (or possibly, even perhaps mendacity?)

Which liberal or liberal organization has proposed that the police stop everyone, from toddlers to old women in wheel chairs? Let me have at least one name, please.

 

[Richardols]

shockerfan:

Left wingers are sooo predictable. Ignore facts, statististics and mathematical probabilities.

Let’s see the facts. How many terrorists have the NYC cops caught so far through their searches? How many might they find if they stop only Arabs and Jews and Italians (all similarly looking and colored “mediterranean types”)

In your liberal mind, checking out 90 year old white women makes much more sense then checking out Muslims aged 18-40, because we don’t want to offend anyone.

I thought you loved “facts.” But, you now propose that you are a mind reader as well? BTW, how many 90 year old white women have been vetted by the cops for possible terrorist ties? I’ve seen no articles on the paper about such outrages, but I’m sure you have the numbers. Let us in on them.

 

[shockerfan]

Richardols:

Let’s see the facts. How many terrorists have the NYC cops caught so far through their searches? How many might they find if they stop only Arabs and Jews and Italians (all similarly looking and colored “mediterranean types”)

None. Using profiling would increase their odds. But those like you, won’t allow commonsense approaches to increase the odds of catching terrorists. All in the name of fairness and feelings.

Richardols:

I thought you loved “facts.” But, you now propose that you are a mind reader as well? BTW, how many 90 year old white women have been vetted by the cops for possible terrorist ties? I’ve seen no articles on the paper about such outrages, but I’m sure you have the numbers. Let us in on them.

TSA certainly will check those 90 year old ladies out at airport security. They are prevented from intentionally checking people who “fit the profile”. I have personally seen old people in wheelchairs get checked. What a waste of valuable time. But thats OK as long as we don’t offend anyone, right?

Again, even though you will not respond to this (what is it 6 times now…I have lost count), reducing the sample size of your checks will increase the probability of finding terrorists. You can’t change that FACT (but you will avoid it).