O’Malley leads bishops on border visit

[pianistclare]

It’s not supposed to be easy or quick to become an American citizen.

I once read that the second largest revenue source for Mexico, at the sum of 30-billion dollars a year, is money sent back to Mexico from Mexicans, probably both legal and illegal aliens, living and working in America.

I would have to confirm if that is still the case, but I imagine that it is still accurate.

I fail to see what the fact that people save and start their own businesses in their homeland has to do with anything.
When Americans do it, it’s called entrepreneurship. When others do it, they’re somehow stealing?
I mean, we have folks who think that people are fleecing the government of services.
The previous post describes people with savings, and a plan. Is that a negative?

And check out the situation in Cuidad Juarez. Nobody wants to live there and get shot at every day.

My original point was, that people come here for all kinds of reasons.
And it’s way too hard to do it legally.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

I fail to see what the fact that people save and start their own businesses in their homeland has to do with anything.
When Americans do it, it’s called entrepreneurship. When others do it, they’re somehow stealing?
I mean, we have folks who think that people are fleecing the government of services.
The previous post describes people with savings, and a plan. Is that a negative?

And check out the situation in Cuidad Juarez. Nobody wants to live there and get shot at every day.

My original point was, that people come here for all kinds of reasons.
And it’s way too hard to do it legally.

They are not paying anything back into the system from which they milk services they do not have the legal right to enjoy. They take jobs here that Americans can work and then send a majority of their earnings back home, either to start businesses there or to support their families.

The idea that Americans do not want the jobs that illegal aliens fill is, I pray, complete nonsense. If Americans have become so elitist that they will not work construction, landscaping, bus tables, farm, etc., then we really are doomed as a country. If the Founders exhibited such elitism, America would never have been formed as an independent, free nation.

Again, it is not supposed to be easy to become a citizen of another sovereign country, for many reasons.

I just do not understand Americans who are willing to ignore our own laws and/or encourage non-Americans to ignore or break our laws.

It’s quite mind boggling.

 

[pianistclare]

They are not paying anything back into the system from which they milk services they do not have the legal right to enjoy. They take jobs here that Americans can work and then send a majority of their earnings back home, either to start businesses there or to support their families.

The idea that Americans do not want the jobs that illegal aliens fill is, I pray, complete nonsense. If Americans have become so elitist that they will not work construction, landscaping, bus tables, farm, etc., then we really are doomed as a country. If the Founders exhibited such elitism, America would never have been formed as an independent, free nation.

Again, it is not supposed to be easy to become a citizen of another sovereign country, for many reasons.

I just do not understand Americans who are willing to ignore our own laws and/or encourage non-Americans to ignore or break our laws.

It’s quite mind boggling.

I’ll I know is that my husband would jump at the chance for one of those low paying jobs. Nobody will take him. Simply because he is an immigrant.
And how does anyone know that ALL of those saving and helping back home are illegal?
That to me is mindboggling.
The Mexicans at our parish all have legal papers and have no intention of moving back. They are very proud to live here and stay.

 

[markomalley]

Message of Pope Francis for the World Day of Migrants and Refugees, 2014:
(snip)

The reality of migration, given its new dimensions in our age of globalization, needs to be approached and managed in a new, equitable and effective manner; more than anything, this calls for international cooperation and a spirit of profound solidarity and compassion. Cooperation at different levels is critical, including the broad adoption of policies and rules aimed at protecting and promoting the human person. Pope Benedict XVI sketched the parameters of such policies, stating that they “should set out from close collaboration between the migrants’ countries of origin and their countries of destination; they should be accompanied by adequate international norms able to coordinate different legislative systems with a view to safeguarding the needs and rights of individual migrants and their families, and at the same time, those of the host countries” (Caritas in Veritate, 62). Working together for a better world requires that countries help one another, in a spirit of willingness and trust, without raising insurmountable barriers. A good synergy can be a source of encouragement to government leaders as they confront socioeconomic imbalances and an unregulated globalization, which are among some of the causes of migration movements in which individuals are more victims than protagonists. No country can singlehandedly face the difficulties associated with this phenomenon, which is now so widespread that it affects every continent in the twofold movement of immigration and emigration.

It must also be emphasized that such cooperation begins with the efforts of each country to create better economic and social conditions at home, so that emigration will not be the only option left for those who seek peace, justice, security and full respect of their human dignity. The creation of opportunities for employment in the local economies will also avoid the separation of families and ensure that individuals and groups enjoy conditions of stability and serenity.

(snip)
Pope Francis, in this message, does reiterate the Church’s acknowledgement that the needs and rights of the host country must be protected, as well as those of the migrant. That is an important point.

Also please note that he states that cooperation between countries BEGINS with the efforts of each country to create better economic and social conditions at home.

Sadly, I see too little emphasis on both these two points in the discussion among Catholics in this country. The really tragic part of this is that many (with prominent voices) are very ready to throw out the “xenophobe” and “know nothing” label. I have, sadly, even read one very prominent individual (whose name, in respect for CAF rules, I will leave blank) who has used the word “nazi” regarding those who do not support unrestricted inflows of people into this country.

It is very difficult to have a conversation when those on the other side are unwilling even to have a discussion and instantly start throwing bombs. (Again, if not for the CAF rules, I would name names and give links to where those words were written)

 

[pnewton]

I am personally not a fan of bishops creating photo-ops and behaving like politicians. The staging of this event is a disappointment.

Ender

That is a rather uncharitable turn of phrase. It was Mass, not a “photo-op”. Would you feel the same way about a prayer vigil at an abortion clinic?

 

[Ender]

That is a rather uncharitable turn of phrase. It was Mass, not a “photo-op”. Would you feel the same way about a prayer vigil at an abortion clinic?

It was reported that the cardinal made this assertion:Every year four hundred bodies are found here at the border, bodies of men, women and children seeking to enter the United States.
The cardinal, to emphasize this point, held a mass and offered communion through the border fence to people allegedly looking to enter the US. The problem is that the assertion is of course false: the bodies are not found at the border because that is not where they are dying. My concern is that the event had to have been planned and organized … and well publicized. So, yes, it was a mass. And it was a photo-op.

Regarding your comment about the abortion clinic, you surely appreciate the difference between a mass and a prayer vigil but the larger point is this: the media would largely ignore a mass directed to end abortion because it doesn’t fit their agenda. They are quite happy to publicize an “immigration” mass implying support support for amnesty and virtually unlimited immigration because that does fit their agenda. I think we should all be somewhat uncomfortable with a mass being used to advance a political objective.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

Regarding your comment about the abortion clinic, you surely appreciate the difference between a mass and a prayer vigil but the larger point is this: the media would largely ignore a mass directed to end abortion because it doesn’t fit their agenda. They are quite happy to publicize an “immigration” mass implying support support for amnesty and virtually unlimited immigration because that does fit their agenda. I think we should all be somewhat uncomfortable with a mass being used to advance a political objective.

Ender

While I agree with what you said about the press, I do not think it right to same the Mass was used by the bishop of having a political objective. He and the other bishops are concerned with the people and the social issues of immigration, not the politics. The Catholic Church is neither Republican or Democrat. I think rather it is a political lens through which they are viewed that makes them seem political. When we get outside our politics, we may not always agree, but we might find it hard to toe either party line.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

I’ll I know is that my husband would jump at the chance for one of those low paying jobs. Nobody will take him. Simply because he is an immigrant.
And how does anyone know that ALL of those saving and helping back home are illegal?
That to me is mindboggling.
The Mexicans at our parish all have legal papers and have no intention of moving back. They are very proud to live here and stay.

In an earlier response to you, I wrote this:

"I once read that the second largest revenue source for Mexico, at the sum of 30-billion dollars a year, is money sent back to Mexico from Mexicans, probably both legal and illegal aliens, living and working in America.

I would have to confirm if that is still the case, but I imagine that it is still accurate."

Just to make clear that I never said that all illegals or only illegals send money home.

I truly pray that your husband can find work soon. I am also searching for employment, and for a long time, now. I quit my job of 15±years a few years ago and went back to college. I earned a BA in English and I cannot find an appropriate job anywhere.

I truly know how it feels to feel somewhat hopeless about finding work these days.

 

[pnewton]

They are not paying anything back into the system from which they milk services they do not have the legal right to enjoy.

First, this is not true, at least everywhere. We have no state income tax and everyone here pays taxes in the for form of both sales tax and property taxes. Second, there does need to be a way to make sure* all* pay into the system that they benefit from. This is one reason I want immigration reform. It is also one reason I am not in favor of amnesty as part of any reform. I do not mind changing the civil method of deportation to a civil fine for the purpose of reimbursing the states in which these people live.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

First, this is not true, at least everywhere. We have no state income tax and everyone here pays taxes in the for form of both sales tax and property taxes. Second, there does need to be a way to make sure* all* pay into the system that they benefit from. This is one reason I want immigration reform. It is also one reason I am not in favor of amnesty as part of any reform. I do not mind changing the civil method of deportation to a civil fine for the purpose of reimbursing the states in which these people live.

Yes, I should have made that distinction. However, the sales tax and property tax (which could apply only if an illegal alien owned property here) paid by illegals does not come close to accounting for, or offsetting the cost of, the benefits they are taking here.

The presence of so many illegal aliens here is very costly for the American citizen tax payer.

 

[GraceSofia]

For many, many Latin Americans coming here to work, it’s to get that “currency/wage differential”, sort of like American oil workers who go to work in Kuwait for a few years and then come back greatly wealthier than the American oil workers who didn’t. But who could credibly maintain that they have a “moral right” to work in Kuwait? The country with the highest per capita income (other than an oil state) is Lichtenstein, or so i understand. Lichtenstein is not very big on letting foreigners become citizens. Who would say I have a “moral right” to citizenship in Lichtenstein just so I could maybe make four times what I make here and live better than my fellow Americans?

Yep. Double standard.
There should be more pressure on Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to take immigrants. They don’t take any. AND they only grant citizenship to spouses after many years IF they are MUSLIM. Meanwhile, Europe is flooded with illegal immigrants from Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

 

[Ender]

While I agree with what you said about the press, I do not think it right to same the Mass was used by the bishop of having a political objective.

A number of bishops have been quite public with their views on specific solutions to the immigration problem. I acknowledge the appropriateness of their public involvement in social issues up to a point. So long as they focus on the problems I will support what they do, but when they advocate for specific solutions I will oppose them because solutions are prudential choices where disagreement is legitimate. Their positions are neither more nor less moral than opposite ones yet their support of one or the other implies something that is not true, that simply because they support it, that the moral position is theirs.

He and the other bishops are concerned with the people and the social issues of immigration, not the politics.

They are surely concerned with the people involved, but they enter the realm of politics as soon as they endorse specific prudential proposals.

The Catholic Church is neither Republican or Democrat. I think rather it is a political lens through which they are viewed that makes them seem political. When we get outside our politics, we may not always agree, but we might find it hard to toe either party line.

The very way you describe the situation highlights the problem: the Catholic Church has no position whatever on building a fence or removing it, on amnesty versus deportation, etc. and the positions taken by the bishops are their own, not those of the church. This is precisely what I object to.

Ender

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ll I know is that my husband would jump at the chance for one of those low paying jobs. Nobody will take him. Simply because he is an immigrant.
And how does anyone know that ALL of those saving and helping back home are illegal?
That to me is mindboggling.
The Mexicans at our parish all have legal papers and have no intention of moving back. They are very proud to live here and stay.

I’m puzzled. Why do you want illegal immigrants to have a better chance than your husband has?

 

[J_Peterson]

Lets be careful of the terms we use. The person is not illegal, their status in this country is. Calling them “illegals” or “illegal immigrants” reduces the person to their legal status.

I though the mass was a beautiful idea. He was inspired by a similar action of Pope Francis in Italy (catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1302849.htm)

 

[chero23]

We have more than 11-million people living here illegally because the laws are not enforced. Politicians don’t want the laws enforced, especially this president and his party, because they want, specifically, the Hispanic vote (whether it comes from an Hispanic-American citizen or Hispanic illegal alien, hence the Democrats fight to prevent voter ID laws).

I have a friend who just retired from what was once called the INS, and is now known as ICE. He told me countless stories from years ago about how they would raid factories and businesses and arrest and deport illegal aliens working there. He also told me that within 6-months, he would arrest the same illegal aliens standing in the same spot in the same factory. This was, of course, at a time when they actually arrested and deported illegal aliens, unlike now.

The visa process is not on the mind of those sneaking over our borders and certainly not on the mind of our politicians. Those coming here illegally know that, these days, once they get here, chances are very slim that they will be deported. They know that our politicians want to give them all sorts of rights and benefits for which illegal aliens do not qualify - employment, healthcare, a driver’s license, an education, free tuition or in-state tuition, basically, all the rights of an American citizen, which is complete amnesty. They know the political game our politicians play, in an attempt to garner the Hispanic vote.

The illegal alien issue is not a matter of compassion. It is a matter of fairness to legal American citizens, including those born here and those who stood in line and waited for years to earn their American citizenship. It is a matter of a country that must maintain its sovereignty or the country will no longer exist.

I beg to differ that its this president. George W. had a big fight with his party remember when he was president over immigration reform. And I think I have heard that Obama has deported more people, so I would be careful that its just a Democratic Party cover up. Theirs a lot of blame to pass around.

 

[chero23]

And how obtainable is legal immigration?

As the wife of an Irish immigrant, I can testify to the fact that it’s not cheap. We have spent THOUSANDS…and he is still here on a year by year basis. I just shelled out over a grand to keep him from being deported. Expires next January. I presume I will get another bill.
How many Mexicans do you imagine can afford the 7-10 grand per person to walk across the border? There are many “helpful lawyers” that are happy to take their money…er…“case”.
If they had that kind of money they would stay home with their family, their culture, and their friends. The border folks come here out of desperation.
How quickly we forget that people suffer greatly.

My husband was not persecuted in Ireland, but he is still my legal husband.
But we are an “immigrant” family. We get no handouts. We get no free health care. We get nothing but an invoice every year. He can apply for citizenship in 2 years. Meanwhile, I’ll keep writin those checks. We have completely depleted our savings.
Oh, and no one want to hire an immigrant legally. He’s still looking for a job…ANYTHING. Moving boxes, washing floors. Nope, once they see that you are from somewhere else…your application goes in the trash. The scrutiny and documentation that employers have to go through is just not worth it to them. So…the illegal hiring thrives.

We do need immigration reform. Those who are able to corrupt the process are doing so.
It’s always the same: people who can lower the hammer on the poor and the needy, will.

It needs a SERIOUS re-set.

Amen, something people think its that the reform will mean that these illegals will jump everyone in line. From what I gathered they want to be able to stand in line and to have a chance to at least become resident.
Im one of those that they should put stipulations in order for them to get their papers.

 

[chero23]

That is a rather uncharitable turn of phrase. It was Mass, not a “photo-op”. Would you feel the same way about a prayer vigil at an abortion clinic?

Thank you good answer, we cannot be hypocrites, and only be fans of our bishops when they support “Our” point of View.

 

[chero23]

It was reported that the cardinal made this assertion:Every year four hundred bodies are found here at the border, bodies of men, women and children seeking to enter the United States.
The cardinal, to emphasize this point, held a mass and offered communion through the border fence to people allegedly looking to enter the US. The problem is that the assertion is of course false: the bodies are not found at the border because that is not where they are dying. My concern is that the event had to have been planned and organized … and well publicized. So, yes, it was a mass. And it was a photo-op.

Regarding your comment about the abortion clinic, you surely appreciate the difference between a mass and a prayer vigil but the larger point is this: the media would largely ignore a mass directed to end abortion because it doesn’t fit their agenda. They are quite happy to publicize an “immigration” mass implying support support for amnesty and virtually unlimited immigration because that does fit their agenda. I think we should all be somewhat uncomfortable with a mass being used to advance a political objective.

Ender

So all the media wants immigration reform? Sorry to burst your bubble but theirs a lot of tv stations and newspapers that are oppose to this.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

I beg to differ that its this president. George W. had a big fight with his party remember when he was president over immigration reform. And I think I have heard that Obama has deported more people, so I would be careful that its just a Democratic Party cover up. Theirs a lot of blame to pass around.

Bush was no great hero with regard to illegal immigration, but the Obama administration is telling an outright lie with their deportation numbers. They are counting people who are turned back at the border as people they have deported.

Here is an article that explains how Obama cooks the books on the deportation issue:

nationalreview.com/article/346043/cooking-books-deportation-stats

An excerpt:

… contrary to the (Obama) administration’s claims, the number of illegal-immigrant removals has dropped 40 percent since June 2011, when ICE director John Morton issued the first of several directives outlining significant changes to the agency’s enforcement policies. “There has been a significant decline in enforcement activity as measured by the number of removals,” Vaughan says.

Deportations specifically of illegal immigrants convicted of a crime — individuals the administration says it has prioritized for removal — are similarly down, almost 40 percent since June 2011, Vaughan found. And that decline has occurred despite a significant increase in the number of illegal immigrants referred to ICE after being arrested for crimes. “There are certainly enough illegal aliens out there, especially enough criminal illegal aliens, that their numbers should be going up, not down,” Vaughan says. “So they appear to be giving a lot of free passes to people who are a public-safety problem, beyond the fact that they are here illegally.’

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

Lets be careful of the terms we use. The person is not illegal, their status in this country is. Calling them “illegals” or “illegal immigrants” reduces the person to their legal status.

I though the mass was a beautiful idea. He was inspired by a similar action of Pope Francis in Italy (catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1302849.htm)

Actually, they are illegal aliens. They are alien to this country and they have come here, and stay here, illegally, meaning that the very second they step foot on our ground without permission, they have broken our laws.