Obama Administration Delays Pipeline Decision

[Namwalker]

Lithium batteries have “issues”.

I was reading some aircraft accident reports. So far two (2) 747’s have caught fire in mid-air because lithium batteries they were carrying as cargo caught fire. Both planes crashed.

AND Fed Ex. [you know them, right] they had a nasty fire at one of their airport sorting facilities when a small package of lithium batteries caught fire. The shipper was MIT [yuup, THAT MIT] and MIT got fined for shipping hazardous cargo.

You forgot about the loss of life in a crash of a commuter airline into the Everglades a number of years ago in which they never recovered all of the bodies of the crew and passengers. These were never meant to fly on passenger airplanes but they did and possibly still do.

If it’s so safe, fly them on Air Force 1.

Why drive something that has a minimal duty life and has to be replaced after a short useful life at great expense. It’s one thing for around the neighborhood driving, but when it really comes right down to it it is more unreliable than what it is trying to replace. You can fit a family of four into one of these, if two are babies and but in sideways.

What is happening is that we are being pushed into unproven and unreliable technology. At the present time it is not ready for stand alone use. Where I live a 40 mile range is not suitable to drive to either work or to the airport. Even going to the store will mean recharge is necessary to get home. Electric vehicles have come a long way, but there is still much further development needed. Otherwise let’s all go get a horse and buggy so we can be green.

 

[SamH]

All the more reason (aside from striving to prevent annihilation of life on earth, or a large portion of it) to buy an EV or extended range EV like the Chevy Volt, and get electricity from, say, the wind, so you can drive 90%+ on the wind instead of on gasoline.

We’re now in process of shopping for a Volt, then driving some 95%+ of our driving days (which are under 40 miles) solely on our 100% wind generated electicity.

Since I had to convince my husband, I did a calculation and found that (figuring conservatively) we could make up the price/cost difference (between buying a Volt and a good used car at a much lower price) in about 7 years, after which we’d be saving money relative to buying the used car. Since we only drive about 5,000 miles a year, it wasn’t worth it in the past to buy a Prius or such, so I’ve been waiting some 20 years for a car like the Volt to come out. Even considered doing a EV conversion, like some friends have done.

And I had been willing to sacrifice for the sake of the life of the world, even 20 years back, but we’ve actually saved many $1000s on our other energy/resource efficiency/conservation & alt energy measures ($2000 just on our $6 low flow showerhead with off-on switch). But this time I thought, okay, let’s sacrifice and get that Volt for the sake of the life of the world. And come to find out, we’ll again be saving (not spending as much) $$ after 7 years.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness, and all things will be added unto you. I guess heart-of-hearts I didn’t really believe that, but now I surely do.

Because burning coal to drive from place to place is so much cleaner than burning gas. If you are counting on wind powering your car I hope have an optional hitch on the front so your horse can pull it.

You have a problem with your “calculations” if you can make a $40,000 volt pay for itself in 35,000 miles instead of buying a used car.

Assuming you buy a $7,000 Cobalt and drive it 35,000 miles in seven years at 28 MPG and gas at $3.00 per gallon you’ve only spent $3,750 in fuel. How does spending $40,000 save money instead of spending $10,750?

You could buy a brand new Malibu (still averages about 28) buy the fuel and still have spent less than you spent just buying a Volt (and you still haven’t paid for any electricity).

 

[lynnvinc]

Do you really believe th volt will be running properly after 7 years?
Won’t the batteries need to be replaced in that time?

They say the batteries should last for 100,000 miles, but you know how they always give the highest possibility under ideal conditions.

Anyway, I hope they last at least 50,000 miles…which puts us 10 years down the road. I know the replacement as of today is like $10,000, but I’m hoping by the time the batteries go kurpunk, the technology would have advanced, making them much better, and economies of scale would have kicked in and made them a lot cheaper. So maybe by then (but hopefully in 20 years and 100,000 miles) we may only be paying $5000 instead in today’s $$…maybe even less.

Part of my calculation was that the Volt would be holding its value much better than, say, a Ford Focus (which is one of the cars we looked at) – the way the Prius has been holding its value over conventional ICE cars. I also included the the $7400 tax reduction that we will get next year (assuming it is not taken away). It is good on up to the 1st 200,000 Volts sold, and I believe that only about 20,000 have been sold to date.

But anyway, even if we don’t actually make up the difference and the total result is we spend more, then to me it is still well worth it. (And we will be easily making up any such loss from all the other energy/resource efficient/conservative and alt energy things we are doing.)

But even if this were not the case and all was sacrifice and loss, the main and only motive for me is and always will be that I will be contributing less to the death of people on into the future. That’s what matters to me. We can afford the Volt because we have been exceedingly frugal all our lives, have saved money from doing the EC (environmentally correct) things, and have received many many blessings and graces from God.

There are lots of other measures people can do to reduce their harms, if they cannot afford the Volt.

 

[lynnvinc]

Lithium batteries have “issues”.

I was reading some aircraft accident reports. So far two (2) 747’s have caught fire in mid-air because lithium batteries they were carrying as cargo caught fire. Both planes crashed.

AND Fed Ex. [you know them, right] they had a nasty fire at one of their airport sorting facilities when a small package of lithium batteries caught fire. The shipper was MIT [yuup, THAT MIT] and MIT got fined for shipping hazardous cargo.

I know about that issue in which a Volt caught fire about a week after its side crash test. The batteries were leaking out in the warehouse, without people being aware, and then caught fire. So the Volt people have warned us about that, and that if it were in any crash, we should bring it in to see if the batteries are leaking. They give 5 years free “On-Star” assistance, and said if such a crash were to happen, they’d come out immediately and drain the batteries.

The other issue being, I suppose you haven’t heard of any ICE (regular gasoline) cars catching fire in crashes? Well, anyway, I have or rather

 

[Roselle]

To make matters worse, read today that Brazil has turned Obama down. The President made an effort to purchase their oil. But instead the Brazilians have decided to sell to China. With this decision from Brazil, hope Canada doesn’t do the same, but wouldn’t be surprised if they did.

“U.S. ‘Reset’ Backfires As Brazil Turns To China”

news.investors.com/Article/598817/201201241908/us-reset-backfires-as-brazil-turns-to-china.htm

snippet:

Diplomacy: President Obama earlier this year hailed a new era of energy cooperation with Brazil, vowing to make America Brazil’s best customer. Brazil’s response? To sell its oil to China. So much for the “reset” in relations.

Hailing Brazil as “a global leader” in a visit so important to him he refused to postpone it even though it happened on the same March day he was sending U.S. troops into harm’s way in Libya, Obama put Brazil on a pedestal.

“It’s time for the United States to treat our engagement with Brazil on economic issues as seriously as we do with nations like China and India,” he declared on arrival in Brasilia. “The United States doesn’t simply recognize Brazil’s rise; we support it enthusiastically.”

Around the same time, his U.S. Export-Import Bank announced $2 billion in U.S. trade credits to develop Brazil’s oil, and an additional $1 billion for its infrastructure, declaring Brazil “a top priority.” And an Ex-Im Bank source volunteered to IBD that that amount could go way higher — in the neighborhood of $20 billion.

“We want to help you with the technology and support to develop these oil reserves safely, and when you’re ready to start selling, we want to be one of your best customers,” Obama told Brazil.

Ten months later, what does Obama have to show for this? A Brazil that has dismissed the U.S. as a lightweight and opted to sell its oil to China instead…

 

[bbarrick8383]

A 40,000 dollar car to drive 14 miles a day?

I’ll take a bicycle if that’s all I need.

 

[lynnvinc]

Because burning coal to drive from place to place is so much cleaner than burning gas. If you are counting on wind powering your car I hope have an optional hitch on the front so your horse can pull it.

You have a problem with your “calculations” if you can make a $40,000 volt pay for itself in 35,000 miles instead of buying a used car.

Assuming you buy a $7,000 Cobalt and drive it 35,000 miles in seven years at 28 MPG and gas at $3.00 per gallon you’ve only spent $3,750 in fuel. How does spending $40,000 save money instead of spending $10,750?

You could buy a brand new Malibu (still averages about 28) buy the fuel and still have spent less than you spent just buying a Volt (and you still haven’t paid for any electricity).

We’re on GreenMountain 100% wind generated electricity (and don’t tell me they don’t have enough wind generators in Texas for their customers – they’re busy right now building a wind farm in an extremely windy place in an adjacent county).

But even if an EV were powered by dirty coal-generated electricity, it only involves about two-thirds the pollution of an ICE car, and the pollution can be controlled at the power plant. I knew some people in an EV conversion club in IL (The Fox Valley Electric Vehicle Association), and they gave me some lit on it, plus a book, “Why Wait for Detroit?”

Re my calculation, I was comparing it to a 2010 Ford Focus. My husband really wanted a Ford Taurus, but not the ones built after 2008, but we couldn’t find any 2007-2008 models for sale in our area. And he didn’t like the Focus bec he felt squashed, so we probably would have actually gone for a bigger gas guzzler, rather than a smaller economy car. He totally dismissed the Cobalt and Aveo without even test-driving them.

The Volt is roomy enough and he likes the way it drives. You know how men are about cars - picky, picky picky

---

Here are my calculations (which may or may not be very accurate):

PRICE & MAINTENANCE:
Car price: Volt (42,000 + 2625 tax) - 1200 trade-in - 7400 tax rebate = $36,025 - 17,000 selling price in 7 years = 19,025
Other car at 24 mpg city (15,000 + 938 tax - 1200 trade-in + 3000 additional auto repairs in 7 years) = 17,738 - 5000 selling price in 7 years = 12,738
COST DIFFERENCE after 7 years: $6288 more for the Volt

FUEL COSTS:
A. DRIVING UNDER 36 MILES/DAY: At 12.7 cents per KWH, a 60% charge of the 16 KWH battery capacity (= 9.6 KWH – it’s buffered 20% on the upper and lower levels), which gets a 40 mile range, that comes to about $1.22 per 40 miles (I figured high at $1.30 per 36 miles – figuring low on the range due to AC and other factors). At 5,000 miles per year being driven less than 36 miles in a day, that comes to $179. Other car (at 24 mpg city) 5,000 miles/24 mi = 208 gallons x $5 per gallon (which is likely under what the 7 year average will be) = $1040/year

DIFFERENCE PER YEAR on Under 36 mile/day driving: $861 savings with Volt x 7 years = $6024 savings

B. DRIVING ABOVE 36 MILES/DAY:
Figuring high at an extra 1000 miles per year for miles driven above 36 miles in a day (like a 300 mile trip), at 40 mpg highway for Volt = $125 per year. For other car at 30 mpg highway = $165 per year.

DIFFERENCE PER YEAR on over 36 miles per day: $40 savings with Volt x 7 years = $280.

**A + B: total driving savings with Volt over 7 years: $6304

PRICE COST DIFFERENCE (from above): $6288**

TOTAL DIFFERENCE (cost, driving): In 7 years the Volt about breaks even, saving $17, but thereafter goes on to save $900 per year. Those savings could then be applied for the big upcoming expense of new batteries in, say, 70,000 to 100,000 miles (in 12 to 17 years). Not to mention this is a really fancy, hi-tech car that would be a real guy-catcher; hubby is REALLY sold on it now that he’s seen all the fancy stuff – while I wouldn’t mind if you had to hand crank the windows.

I realize there may be hidden expenses I’m not factoring in; but there may also be hidden savings, as well. When we got our SunFrost frig in 1991 (uses one-tenth energy of conventional frig, actually 1/12 of our old clonker frig at the time), we also found out that veggies hardly spoiled at all, so there was a lot of extra savings there, and the $2700 frig (incl shipping from Arcata, CA) not only went on to save the difference, but to actually pay for itself in relative savings over the years.

And we haven’t even factored in the lives saved and miscarriages prevented…

 

[bbarrick8383]

You added costs to regular car you didn’t to volt. 3,000 dollars.

 

[JimG]

The Canadian oil will be shipped whether the pipeline is completed or not. It’s already been approved! The only holdup was the route through Nebraska, but that’s fixable. The oil can be moved by tanker truck or by rail, but that’s more expensive, and will just make Warren Buffet and his secretary richer. The oil will be shipped either to the U.S. or to China, but I’m guessing it will come to the U.S. via the pipeline. The pipeline will be built. It will provide jobs and energy.

And no, the oil will not destroy the planet. The only thing with potential to destroy civilization as we know it is the mounting global debt and the out of control U.S. debt, which in the continued absence of economic and population growth, could implode to cause a monetary crisis.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, I don’t know about the savings. My favorite vehicle is my 1987 Chevrolet pickup. Pretty hard to harm it. If the engine goes, (a 350) after 250,000-300,000 miles, you can get a rebuilt one put in for about $2,000 and it runs like new. It drinks gas all right. Gets about 20-25 mpg, depending on what you’re doing and if you’re hauling something. But you don’t buy total replacements all the time, you just replace parts if you need to, and it doesn’t cost much to do it. No computer. Cheap to repaint if you need to, because you really don’t need a luxury paint job on a pickup. You just repaint the part, anyway. You can do it forever as long as you don’t wreck the frame. But if you do, you can replace the whole thing around here for about $4000-$5,000…a pretty good one…and start over. Wish cars were like that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

We’re on GreenMountain 100% wind generated electricity (and don’t tell me they don’t have enough wind generators in Texas for their customers – they’re busy right now building a wind farm in an extremely windy place in an adjacent county).

But even if an EV were powered by dirty coal-generated electricity, it only involves about two-thirds the pollution of an ICE car, and the pollution can be controlled at the power plant. I knew some people in an EV conversion club in IL (The Fox Valley Electric Vehicle Association), and they gave me some lit on it, plus a book, “Why Wait for Detroit?”

Re my calculation, I was comparing it to a 2010 Ford Focus. My husband really wanted a Ford Taurus, but not the ones built after 2008, but we couldn’t find any 2007-2008 models for sale in our area. And he didn’t like the Focus bec he felt squashed, so we probably would have actually gone for a bigger gas guzzler, rather than a smaller economy car. He totally dismissed the Cobalt and Aveo without even test-driving them.

The Volt is roomy enough and he likes the way it drives. You know how men are about cars - picky, picky picky

---

Here are my calculations (which may or may not be very accurate):

PRICE & MAINTENANCE:
Car price: Volt (42,000 + 2625 tax) - 1200 trade-in - 7400 tax rebate = $36,025 - 17,000 selling price in 7 years = 19,025
Other car at 24 mpg city (15,000 + 938 tax - 1200 trade-in + 3000 additional auto repairs in 7 years) = 17,738 - 5000 selling price in 7 years = 12,738
COST DIFFERENCE after 7 years: $6288 more for the Volt

FUEL COSTS:
A. DRIVING UNDER 36 MILES/DAY: At 12.7 cents per KWH, a 60% charge of the 16 KWH battery capacity (= 9.6 KWH – it’s buffered 20% on the upper and lower levels), which gets a 40 mile range, that comes to about $1.22 per 40 miles (I figured high at $1.30 per 36 miles – figuring low on the range due to AC and other factors). At 5,000 miles per year being driven less than 36 miles in a day, that comes to $179. Other car (at 24 mpg city) 5,000 miles/24 mi = 208 gallons x $5 per gallon (which is likely under what the 7 year average will be) = $1040/year

DIFFERENCE PER YEAR on Under 36 mile/day driving: $861 savings with Volt x 7 years = $6024 savings

B. DRIVING ABOVE 36 MILES/DAY:
Figuring high at an extra 1000 miles per year for miles driven above 36 miles in a day (like a 300 mile trip), at 40 mpg highway for Volt = $125 per year. For other car at 30 mpg highway = $165 per year.

DIFFERENCE PER YEAR on over 36 miles per day: $40 savings with Volt x 7 years = $280.

**A + B: total driving savings with Volt over 7 years: $6304

PRICE COST DIFFERENCE (from above): $6288**

TOTAL DIFFERENCE (cost, driving): In 7 years the Volt about breaks even, saving $17, but thereafter goes on to save $900 per year. Those savings could then be applied for the big upcoming expense of new batteries in, say, 70,000 to 100,000 miles (in 12 to 17 years). Not to mention this is a really fancy, hi-tech car that would be a real guy-catcher; hubby is REALLY sold on it now that he’s seen all the fancy stuff – while I wouldn’t mind if you had to hand crank the windows.

I realize there may be hidden expenses I’m not factoring in; but there may also be hidden savings, as well. When we got our SunFrost frig in 1991 (uses one-tenth energy of conventional frig, actually 1/12 of our old clonker frig at the time), we also found out that veggies hardly spoiled at all, so there was a lot of extra savings there, and the $2700 frig (incl shipping from Arcata, CA) not only went on to save the difference, but to actually pay for itself in relative savings over the years.

And we haven’t even factored in the lives saved and miscarriages prevented…

But hasn’t Obama promised to “make utility costs skyrocket”? Are we being led down another primrose path here? Just asking.

 

[lynnvinc]

You added costs to regular car you didn’t to volt. 3,000 dollars.

The $3000 on the used car is the difference in maintenance costs over 7 years. The new Volt has a 36,000 miles or 3 yr bumper to bumper warrantee (that’s part of a new car’s cost), plus 80,000 miles or 6 yrs on the drive-train and 100,000 miles or 8 yrs on the batteries (with us it would be the years since we don’t drive much…Since the 70s oil crunch we’ve lived very close to work and shops, within 1 or 2 miles).

I know if it were a pure EV (without an ICE extended range), the maintenance costs would be a whole lot less than those of an ICE car – one of the beauties of an EV. That’s what I learned from the EV club members and also from WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?

 

[bbarrick8383]

The $3000 on the used car is the difference in maintenance costs over 7 years. The new Volt has a 36,000 miles or 3 yr bumper to bumper warrantee (that’s part of a new car’s cost), plus 80,000 miles or 6 yrs on the drive-train and 100,000 miles or 8 yrs on the batteries (with us it would be the years since we don’t drive much…Since the 70s oil crunch we’ve lived very close to work and shops, within 1 or 2 miles).

I know if it were a pure EV (without an ICE extended range), the maintenance costs would be a whole lot less than those of an ICE car – one of the beauties of an EV. That’s what I learned from the EV club members and also from WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?

If you drive that little, a good Toyota won’t cost $3,000 in maintenance.

 

[vz71]

Here are my calculations (which may or may not be very accurate):

The volt is a hybrid, it uses gas, I do not see where you accounted for this fuel cost.
The sticker lists the volt as anywhere between 37 and 90 miles to the gallon.
Present cost of gas is roughly 3.75 where I live for the premium this car requires.

The volt also plugs into an AC outlet at your home to be charged. You did not account for the extra cost to your utility bill for that charge.

And you also have not accounted for cost of battary replacement.
During the lifetime of that car, you will need to replace those at some point.

 

[lynnvinc]

The volt is a hybrid, it uses gas, I do not see where you accounted for this fuel cost.
The sticker lists the volt as anywhere between 37 and 90 miles to the gallon.
Present cost of gas is roughly 3.75 where I live for the premium this car requires.

The volt also plugs into an AC outlet at your home to be charged. You did not account for the extra cost to your utility bill for that charge.

And you also have not accounted for cost of battary replacement.
During the lifetime of that car, you will need to replace those at some point.

I did account for the gasoline by indicating the miles driven per day above 36 (the maximum range on the batteries alone is 41, but I’m figuring low), calculating 1000/year on gasoline at 40 mpg, since these will mainly be highway miles: 1000/40 mpg = 25 gallons x $5/gal = $125

On Battery Alone: Likewise I took our KWH cost for electricity (12.7 cents, but upped it to 13 cents) and multiplied that times the number of full charges (60% of the 16 KWH battery capacity = 9.6 KWH a charge) we’d need to drive 5000/year (local driving under 36 miles per day). 5000/36 = [139 charges x (9.6 KWH capacity x $0.13 = $1.25) = $174 per year in electricity.

Total electricity for 5000 miles + gas for 1000 miles = 125 + 174 = $299
Figuring the other car (mid-size bec my husband won’t go for economy) at 25 mpg (mostly city), that cost per year in gasoline is 6000/25 mpg = 240 gallons x $5 = $1200
VOLT SAVINGS per year = $901

Acc to GM the batteries are designed to go 100,000 miles (17 years for us) before needing replacement, but even if you figure they only go up to 80,000 miles (13 years for us), we would have some 6 years savings (beyond the 7-year break-even point, when we go on to save $901 per year) to compensate for that: 6 x 901 = $5406.

The replacement cost today for Volt batteries is $8,000. I’m thinking battery technology will continue to improve and become much more efficient, and economies of scale will also lower the price, so figuring high I’d expect them to cost around $5000 for the same KWH capacity. So we’d still break even, and we’d be contributing much less to the harm and death of people via local pollution, regional acid rain, global warming, and depletion of a finite resource (we really should leave some resources for the children).

Another consideration is that we have probably reached “peak oil.” The fact that we are going after very difficult, costly (in terms of money and energy (name removed by moderator)ut) sources like the tar sands, oil shale, and very very deep off-shore drilling indicates that we have passed the peak and are on the way down.

See CRUDE AWAKENING (re the depleting oil supplies, never mind the pollution and global warming): youtube.com/watch?v=5sMF1n9EgzU

I think it can be assumed the price of oil will be going up. My $5 per gallon average over the next 7 years may be lower than what will pan out. Also, if you remove the subsidies for oil & tax-breaks to oil companies today, then the price will sky-rocket tomorrow.

I’m thinking the average price per gallon over the next 5 years could be more like $6. Then the savings per year with a Volt will be more like $1122, and the savings will pay for the difference in about 5.6 years.**

 

[lynnvinc]

If you drive that little, a good Toyota won’t cost $3,000 in maintenance.

The whole point of us buying a Volt is not to save money, but to drive on wind power rather than gasoline. As I mentioned we want to reduce the harm and killing of people through various pollutions – local, regional, global. We are fortunate to have the money at this point of our lives to splurge on such a venture. We are doing it for the sake of the life of the world.

The fact that we save money or break even is just a nice addition to this, and also I hope it will reduce people’s fear of buying into new technology (actually it is old – some of the very first cars were electric) and kicking the oil habit as much as possible, so we don’t need to go after every last drop of oil on the planet, squeezing out oil from tar sands, etc.

Not everyone can afford the upfront cost of such a costly car (even if it eventually pays for the difference), but there are many other ways to at least “reduce the habit,” such as moving closer to work, turning off engines in drive-thrus, keeping tires inflated, running multiple (r/t single) errands, hypermiling (see fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml ), off-setting some driving with walking or cycling, etc. UPS has designed its routes to reduce left-turning, thereby saving it some $10million and helping our planet & its people and other creatures.

 

[stevegravy]

good article

humanevents.com/article.php?id=49036

Exactly!

 

[vz71]

My understanding is that the engine turns on whenever you need the power and turns off when batteries will work.
You cannot calculate fuel usage based solely upon the maximum miles a battery will take you.

 

[vz71]

The whole point of us buying a Volt is not to save money, but to drive on wind power rather than gasoline.

But your entire justification is based upon calculations of costs and savings.

If your real purpose is ideological rather then economic, it suits me fine.
But I find it confusing to have an ideological decision backed up only by economic statistics.

 

[vz71]

UPS has designed its routes to reduce left-turning, thereby saving it some $10million and helping our planet & its people and other creatures.

I doubt UPS had the planet in mind when it made this decision.

This looks more like a PR and economic decision designed to increase the bottom line.