Obama and Romney Hit the Final Stretch PT 2

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Lapey said:
*Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: candidate (A, Kerry) who is completely for abortion-on-demand, candidate (B, Bush) who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and candidate (C, Peroutka), a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable.

The Catholic voter cannot vote for candidate (A, Kerry) because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation, which would remove restrictions on, abortion-on-demand.

The Catholic can vote for candidate (C, Peroutka) but that will probably only help ensure the election of candidate (A, Kerry).

Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for candidate (B, Bush) since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand. In such a case, the Catholic voter would have chosen the lesser of two evils which is morally permissible under these circumstances.*
Of course, the Catholic voter could choose not to vote. But that would be a serious abdication of the Catholic voter’s civic and moral obligation to participate in the election. By not voting the Catholic voter could well be assisting in the election of candidate (A, Kerry) and while that would not carry the same guilt as formal participation in candidate (A, Kerry’s) support of abortion-on-demand it would still be sinful, even if only a sin of omission.

Those Catholic voters who love moral absolutes would have no choice but to vote for candidate (C, Peroutka), but those Catholics who recognize that in the real world it is sometimes necessary to choose the lesser of two evils in order to prevent greater harm – in this case harm to innocent unborn children would vote for candidate (B, Bush).

Perfectly stated, this is an incredible example of proportionate reasoning. Basically the same is present in this election. Thanks for posting this!

Facts are clear about these candidates

Candidate A = Obama - abortion on demand including on at least some levels tax payer funding for it - proof is in words and deeds. Party platform does plainly state that it supports women’s rights to abortion on demand.

Candidate B = Romney - Is against abortion in all cases except rape, incest, and life of the mother, not 100% pro-life. However, in word and deed has shown a much better record of defending life from conception to natural death than candidate A. Party platform has does not support abortion rights.

Candidate C - pick you candidate - no chance of winning, or influencing the debate. Only one possibility is to take away enough votes from candidate B to allow candidate A to win. This would be the worst of two evils and those candidate C votes would have helped this happen.

Candidate D = no vote - again if enough votes are not cast for candidate B, A will win. If all these no votes would be practicing Catholics voting by Church doctrines, abortion would not be a big topic anymore. It would be unsafe (no change because no abortion is safe, the baby always dies), rare and illegal.
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Of course, one may vote for candidate B, but that does not imply one must vote for candidate B.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Gary,

I think you are the one who needs to learn what the term prudential judgement means. I never said that one can use prudential judgement in issues surrounding intrinsic evils. However, does the Church allow me to use my judgement to determine whether my vote is best cast of a pure pro-life candidate, or a pro-abortion candidate that is not as bad, the answer is clearly yes.

The key phrase here is “in my opinion”.

I never proposed that someone can vote for Obama, so this passage seems irrelevant.
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Thats why I listed it as my opinion…:cool:

I know you didn’t mention voting for Obama, if I implied that I am sorry. I’ll have to go back to see, too many conversations, not sure who I’m talking with anymore.

Also, comment on this, I never said your choice of voting for a third party is immoral.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Of course, one may vote for candidate B, but that does not imply one must vote for candidate B.
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Obviously, but if you read on you will see where he does (name removed by moderator)ly that a Catholic shoul vote for candidate B. A no vote or a C vote will limit B’s ability to win and therefore indirectly allow abortion on demmand to continue.

Immoral? No I agree.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Gary,

I think you are the one who needs to learn what the term prudential judgement means. I never said that one can use prudential judgement in issues surrounding intrinsic evils. However, does the Church allow me to use my judgement to determine whether my vote is best cast of a pure pro-life candidate, or a pro-abortion candidate that is not as bad, the answer is clearly yes.
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I probably jumped the gun here, but this term is used so many times to “allow” a person’s conscience to agree with voting pro-abortion. This term does not fit in that manner.

The writing of the bishop quoted used the term “proportionate reasons” not “prudential judgment”. There is a difference and the latter is used typically to decide whether an issue is “okay or not”, as in capital punishment. But again, I should not have nailed you with this because you were not using it this way, again I apologize.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
I predict a 278-260 win for Obama with Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, Washington and Oregon going to him and remainder of the undecided States going to Romney.
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You’re going to break from the MSM on Iowa going blue?
 
Seeker1961 said:
With the race this close, it probably isn’t wise for either side to start declaring victory.

Perhaps we could all pray that when this is over-whoever the winner is- we would remember to treat each other with respect and charity.
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👍
 
_Abyssinia said:
You can vote for a 3rd party candidate but there is universal recongition that none of the 3rd party candidates will win
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So what? Sometimes folks vote on their principles even though they know their man or woman is going to lose. No one needs bow before Obama or Romney. 🤷
 
Seeker1961 said:
With the race this close, it probably isn’t wise for either side to start declaring victory.

Perhaps we could all pray that when this is over-whoever the winner is- we would remember to treat each other with respect and charity.
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I’m sure that’ll happen on this Forum, but there’ll be enough residual and even increasing hatred between other partisans of each side that charity will be gone with the wind.
 
And now for something really different. What prayers are we saying as the election approaches?

“Qui cantat, bis orat” (He who sings, prays twice). Augustine of Hippo Sermons 336, 1 PL 38, 1472.

I have the anthems we sang the last two Sundays at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They were recorded live at the 11:30 mass and the recordings are really just for the use of the choir, so don’t expect professional quality recordings. I am posting the lyrics here so you can read as you listen.

For the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time, cycle B, commonly known as Oct 21, 2012:
Text: Georg Neumark, 1621-1681; trans. by Catherine Winkworth, 1827-1878
Music: Georg Neumark
Tune: WER NUR DEN LIEBEN GOTT, Meter: 98.98.88

If thou but suffer God to guide thee,
And hope in Him through all thy ways,
He’ll give thee strength, whatever betide thee,
An bear thee through the evil days;
Who trusts in God’s unchanging love
Builds on the Rock that naught can move.

Only be still and wait His leisure
In cheerful hope with heart content.
To take whatever thy Father’s pleasure,
And all discerning love hath sent;
Nor doubt our inmost wants are known.
To Him who chose us for His own.

Sing, pray, and keep His ways unswerving;
In all thy labor faithful be,
And trust His Word, though undeserving,
Thou yet shalt find it true for thee;
God never yet forsook in need.
The soul that trusts in Him indeed.

For the 30th Sunday of Ordinary Time, cycle B, commonly known as Oct 28, 2012:
K. Lee Scott, Open My Eyes

Open my eyes and I shall see;
Incline my heart and I shall desire;
Order my steps and I shall walk
In the way of your commandments.

O God, be my only Lord,
And beside you let there none else,
No other, none else with you.

Teach me to worship you
And serve you in all my undertakings
With truth of spirit,
With honor of body,
With blessing of mouth
Both in public and private.

cathedralchoir.info/
Repeat as often as necessary.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
So what? Sometimes folks vote on their principles even though they know their man or woman is going to lose. No one needs bow before Obama or Romney. 🤷
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If a candidate wants my vote, they have to convince me to vote for them. If they can’t, they don’t get my vote. I don’t care how yucky the other candidate is.
 
Trader said:
And now for something really different. What prayers are we saying as the election approaches?

“Qui cantat, bis orat” (He who sings, prays twice). Augustine of Hippo Sermons 336, 1 PL 38, 1472.

I have the anthems we sang the last two Sundays at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Fort Wayne, Indiana. They were recorded live at the 11:30 mass and the recordings are really just for the use of the choir, so don’t expect professional quality recordings. I am posting the lyrics here so you can read as you listen.

For the 29th Sunday of Ordinary Time, cycle B, commonly known as Oct 21, 2012:
Text: Georg Neumark, 1621-1681; trans. by Catherine Winkworth, 1827-1878
Music: Georg Neumark
Tune: WER NUR DEN LIEBEN GOTT, Meter: 98.98.88

If thou but suffer God to guide thee,
And hope in Him through all thy ways,
He’ll give thee strength, whatever betide thee,
An bear thee through the evil days;
Who trusts in God’s unchanging love
Builds on the Rock that naught can move.

Only be still and wait His leisure
In cheerful hope with heart content.
To take whatever thy Father’s pleasure,
And all discerning love hath sent;
Nor doubt our inmost wants are known.
To Him who chose us for His own.

Sing, pray, and keep His ways unswerving;
In all thy labor faithful be,
And trust His Word, though undeserving,
Thou yet shalt find it true for thee;
God never yet forsook in need.
The soul that trusts in Him indeed.

For the 30th Sunday of Ordinary Time, cycle B, commonly known as Oct 28, 2012:
K. Lee Scott, Open My Eyes

Open my eyes and I shall see;
Incline my heart and I shall desire;
Order my steps and I shall walk
In the way of your commandments.

O God, be my only Lord,
And beside you let there none else,
No other, none else with you.

Teach me to worship you
And serve you in all my undertakings
With truth of spirit,
With honor of body,
With blessing of mouth
Both in public and private.

cathedralchoir.info/
Repeat as often as necessary.
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👍👍
 
qui_est_ce said:
Name-calling. So unbecoming to the Office of President. 😦
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He is not in the Office of the President. And if you are going to talk about disrespect to that office, then replay the debates and listen to how Governor Romney addressed President Obama.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
So what? Sometimes folks vote on their principles even though they know their man or woman is going to lose. No one needs bow before Obama or Romney. 🤷
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With so much at stake in this election,indulging in a protest voteIMHO,is irresponsible,unless it would benefit Romney:D
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
I’m sure that’ll happen on this Forum, but there’ll be enough residual and even increasing hatred between other partisans of each side that charity will be gone with the wind.
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It might be hard to tell at times. I recall an exchange between W.F. Buckley and Phil Donahue. They disagreed vigorously about something and Buckley was winning. Donahue then said, somewhat plaintively, it seemed to me “But you have to respect my opinion!” “No I don’t”, responded Buckley. “I have to respect your right to have an opinion, but I don’t have to respect your opinion.”

If Obama wins, I don’t expect a whole lot of gloating by his supporters in here. It wouldn’t be especially popular, though some will express utopian hopes just like in 2008. That particular “opinion” will not be greeted with respect, and certainly not by me.

On the other hand, if Romney wins, I anticipate a lot of expectation on the part of those who oppose Obama’s promotion of abortion, homosexual “marriage” and his oppression of the Church. Some of that will be easy for Romney to roll back. But some of it will be tough. When it comes to Obamacare and true deficit reduction, it won’t be easy at all. I expect expressions of relief, but I doubt many Romney supporters will be gloating, precisely because so many present problems are so daunting. I do think, as some of the Obama failures not widely reported in the media bob to the surface, there will be some expressions of outrage. But that will be later on and sporadic.
 
Jeanne_S said:
With so much at stake in this election,indulging in a protest voteIMHO,is irresponsible,unless it would benefit Romney:D
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Not a protest vote, Jeanne. Either a thought-out vote for one of the 3d party candidates, or a no vote for anyone. 🙂
 
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