Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[Monte_RCMS]

Well, who has a greater claim to freely practice their religion? Muslims or Greek Orthodox.

Familiar with St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church?

It was located one block south of the South Tower. On 9/11, nine years ago, it was crushed when the South Tower, 2 WTC fell on it.

And yet, nine years later, there is still not an agreement to rebuild it.

You would think that Mayor Bloomberg, Governor Patterson, and the Port Authority of NY & NJ would bend over backwards to do whatever it took to get a new St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church built.

Well, you would think wrong.

So, how about this. Fine with a mega-mosque and a community center (or whatever they’re calling it … although the community is not allowed in unless they are Muslim and women are only allowed through a screen … but first let us build a new St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church … perhaps at 51 Park Row … and then when that is all done, we can spend another nine years discussing the Cordoba Mosque project.

deathby1000papercuts.com/2010/08/ground-zero-st-nicholas-church-still-not-rebuilt-nine-years-later/

And you can read about it in the New York Times.

nytimes.com/2008/07/03/nyregion/03trade.html?_r=2&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bagli,%20Charles%20V

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

I saw part of the announcement on cnn the other day. Did they or did they not say that obama had just celebrated a muslim dinner or event? Please tell me am wrong.

yeah… he had a ramadan dinner at the white house…

Pres Bush held that dinner too.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

the-classic-liberal.com/flight-93-father-ground-mosque-mosque-built-911-site/

letter from father of flight 93 hero…
Flight 93 memorial is in the shape of the crecant moon and faces mecca.

 

[Califman831]

yeah… he had a ramadan dinner at the white house…

Pres Bush held that dinner too.

Bush I or II?

 

[josephdavid]

It is indeed sad times when all legitimate dissent is mischaracterized as bigotry. I oppose the proposed casino in Gettysburg Pennsylvania. That does not mean I oppose gambling or that I hate Casino owners-it just means I don’t think it’s appropriate place for it to be built, it is interesting that in my opposition to the casino no one calls me a bigot or claims I’m trying to overturn the 14th amendment. Charges of racism and bigotry are nothing more than a futile attempt to shut the discussion down.

What are talkiing about is the fundemental right to practice one’s religion and assemble to practice their religion. That is the issue here.

Having a Casino which is a business is regulated by commerce laws local, state and in some cases federal. But religion is a fundemental right. Sorry that was a strawman argument.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

It’s about sensitivity.

Or lack of sensitivity.

Even President Obama recognizes the need for sensitivity.

President Obama is VERY sensitive to Israeli construction in Jerusalem and wants to stop it.

israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/137458

But President Obama seems to lack sensitivity regarding Muslim construction in downtown Manhattan near the World Trade Center site.

Here is an interesting article on sensitivity to inappropriate construction projects:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996.html

Excerpt:

That’s why Disney’s 1993 proposal to build an American history theme park near Manassas Battlefield was defeated by a broad coalition that feared vulgarization of the Civil War (and that was wiser than me; at the time I obtusely saw little harm in the venture). It’s why the commercial viewing tower built right on the border of Gettysburg was taken down by the Park Service. It’s why, while no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive.

And why Pope John Paul II ordered the Carmelite nuns to leave the convent they had established at Auschwitz. He was in no way devaluing their heartfelt mission to pray for the souls of the dead. He was teaching them a lesson in respect: This is not your place; it belongs to others. However pure your voice, better to let silence reign.

Even New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who denounced opponents of the proposed 15-story mosque and Islamic center near Ground Zero as tramplers on religious freedom, asked the mosque organizers “to show some special sensitivity to the situation.” Yet, as columnist Rich Lowry pointedly noted, the government has no business telling churches how to conduct their business, shape their message or show “special sensitivity” to anyone about anything. Bloomberg was thereby inadvertently conceding the claim of those he excoriates for opposing the mosque, namely that Ground Zero is indeed unlike any other place and therefore unique criteria govern what can be done there.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

What are talkiing about is the fundemental right to practice one’s religion and assemble to practice their religion. That is the issue here.

Having a Casino which is a business is regulated by commerce laws local, state and in some cases federal. But religion is a fundemental right. Sorry that was a strawman argument.

Read the Koran lately? Hmmmm?

It requires the killing of infidels. Hunting them down and killing them.

AND, Muslims do that all the time … cut the throats of infidels.

So, do we Christians then go ahead and “tolerate” Muslims in the United States hunting down and killing infidels here?

I mean, hunting down and killing infidels IS a part of their religious practice.

So, is that statement of tolerance a reasonable consideration under the Constitution?

[Refresh me: what was it that took place on September 11, 2001 at the World Trade Center???]

Let me refresh you: What happened on September 11, 2001 was the killing of infidels by Muslims, who were freely practicing their religion.

Anyway, someone went to the trouble of collecting the appropriate passages from the Koran about the killing of infidels. And here they are:

wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Here is an excerpt … a SMALL fraction of the quotes from the Koran:

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

… martyrs… Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

And yet, nine years later, there is still not an agreement to rebuild it.

You can thank the church leaders for that. The city bent over backwards and made a very generous offer by not only offering $20 million for the old property but also giving them a 24,000 square foot plot (far larger than the old plot) at no charge in addition to a $40 million blast proof foundation.

 

[estesbob]

What are talkiing about is the fundemental right to practice one’s religion and assemble to practice their religion. That is the issue here.

Having a Casino which is a business is regulated by commerce laws local, state and in some cases federal. But religion is a fundemental right. Sorry that was a strawman argument.

Opposing the Mosque at that location is in no way shape or form trying to limit somebody’s freedom a religion. That is a strawman being used by the supporters of the mosque to try to shut the discussion down. People oppose the mosque for the exact same reason that we oppose building the casino in Gettysburg-not that we object to the activity that is to be carried on the venue -we object to the location it is being built at,

 

[josephdavid]

Read the Koran lately? Hmmmm?

It requires the killing of infidels. Hunting them down and killing them.

AND, Muslims do that all the time … cut the throats of infidels.

So, do we Christians then go ahead and “tolerate” Muslims in the United States hunting down and killing infidels here?

I mean, hunting down and killing infidels IS a part of their religious practice.

So, is that statement of tolerance a reasonable consideration under the Constitution?

[Refresh me: what was it that took place on September 11, 2001 at the World Trade Center???]

Let me refresh you: What happened on September 11, 2001 was the killing of infidels by Muslims, who were freely practicing their religion.

Anyway, someone went to the trouble of collecting the appropriate passages from the Koran about the killing of infidels. And here they are:

wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Have you read our Scriptures. Have you read sections of Numbers? Ever read about Pope Alexander II and Pope UrbanII? How about Pope Lucius II and Pope Sixtus? Timothy McVeigh killed in the name of Christianity. Catholic Bishops hid and protected child molesters. Certainly then you must believe Christianity is all bad and are terrorists yes?

So you are saying that over a billions muslims in the world they are all killing and slaughtering us? Wow I was just in Detroit and Soutwest Side of Chicago, I must of been lucky that I escaped with my life! As a matter of fact the owner of a contract manufacturer in Chicago was muslim. I am suprised he did not kill me.

I remember what happened on 9/11. I remember my wife and I losing a friend in the Towers and while my wife was on the phone with her. I remember going to get my in the city because the were evacuating the Sears Tower which her office was located.

I distictly reading about the many muslims who died on 9/11 and I distictly remember meeting some of my brothers soldiers before they deployed for Afganistan. 2 of his soldiers in his Platoon are muslim.

I am sick of those who use religion to promote their political ideologies.

 

[estesbob]

I am sick of those who use religion to promote their political ideologies.

And I’m sick of those who condemn those who disagree with him as bigots.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

You can thank the church leaders for that. The city bent over backwards and made a very generous offer by not only offering $20 million for the old property but also giving them a 24,000 square foot plot (far larger than the old plot) at no charge in addition to a $40 million blast proof foundation.

Not exactly… from the NY Times…march 2009

Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial. The church, in turn, wanted the right to review plans for both the garage with the bomb-screening center and the park, something the authority was unwilling to provide. More important, authority officials said, the church wanted the $20 million up front, rather than in stages……

The termination of negotiations is a major setback for the little church, a parish of 70 families that is nearly 90 years old. St. Nicholas officials had hoped to build an impressive structure, with a traditional Greek Orthodox dome, and a nondenominational center for visitors to ground zero. That will not be possible on the church’s original 1,200-square-foot lot, although church officials say they hope for reconciliation…..

 

[bbarrick8383]

Timothy McVeigh killed in the name of Christianity.

Please explain,

after reading this:

In a recorded interview with Time magazine McVeigh professed his belief in “a god”, although he said he had “sort of lost touch with” Catholicism and “I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.” Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell. McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, “Science is my religion.”

I am sick of those who use religion to promote their political ideologies.

Maybe you are just having a hard time understanding what other people believe.

 

[Los_Angeles]

What I don’t get about the building of this Mosque near Ground Zero is, even though it is legal to build there, shows the agenda of even “moderate” Islam. A “community center” (mosque) of all the places in the United States of America, it could be built, they chose it in one of our most sensitve areas.

If anything I have said is against the Catholic Church, let it be anathema.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not exactly… from the NY Times…march 2009

Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial. The church, in turn, wanted the right to review plans for both the garage with the bomb-screening center and the park, something the authority was unwilling to provide. More important, authority officials said, the church wanted the $20 million up front, rather than in stages……

The termination of negotiations is a major setback for the little church, a parish of 70 families that is nearly 90 years old. St. Nicholas officials had hoped to build an impressive structure, with a traditional Greek Orthodox dome, and a nondenominational center for visitors to ground zero. That will not be possible on the church’s original 1,200-square-foot lot, although church officials say they hope for reconciliation…..

Wonder how many of them voted for “change”.

 

[josephdavid]

And I’m sick of those who condemn those who disagree with him as bigots.

Well personally I never called anyone a bigot. But I will say they are flawed in believing that all Muslims are evil and all Muslims are out to get us.

Remember Muslims died in those towers too. Muslims have died for his country.

 

[estesbob]

Well personally I never called anyone a bigot. But I will say they are flawed in believing that all Muslims are evil and all Muslims are out to get us.

Another strawman-we are discussing the approporaiteness of building a Mosque near ground zero. One can oppose the Mosque and not beleive all Muslims are evil or out to get us

Remember Muslims died in those towers too. Muslims have died for his country.

So?

 

[josephdavid]

Another strawman-we are discussing the approporaiteness of building a Mosque near ground zero. One can oppose the Mosque and not beleive all Muslims are evil or out to get us

Well look at the reasons many are saying a Mosque can not be built there.

So?

Wow I do not know what to say to that.

 

[estesbob]

Wow I do not know what to say to that.

How about you just give me an answer as to why the religion of those who died in the Twin Towers has any bearing whatsoever on whether a Mosque should be built near Ground Zero

 

[josephdavid]

How about you just give me an answer as to why the religion of those who died in the Twin Towers has any bearing whatsoever on whether a Mosque should be built near Ground Zero

I think it has no bearing. They should be allowed to have a Mosque there if they so choose so. Also it is a local matter in my opinin and local community (the city of New York) expressed their support

So then what is the problem? If religion is not an issue then why are people upset with people expressing their right to practice their faith?