Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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TheTrueCentrist said:
I suppose it is an unclear analogy as McVeigh’s views on religion could probably best be described as “confused.” Perhaps a better analogy would be churches near Centennial Olympic Park.
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sorry, that analogy doesn’t help me understand your point either. :confused::confused:
 
gilliam said:
I’m afraid our enemy will just say we are fat, dumb and so afraid of them we are willing to let them build a pilgrimage spot on the site of their greatest triumph in the last 1,000 years. We all need to be open enough to look at this from the viewpoint of enemy propaganda and will it help or hurt the war effort. I tend to side with the idea that it is a bad idea and only gives the enemy more propaganda to use against us. In the eyes of many Muslims in the world this is a war of the strong vs the weak. The US being the strong bully. If they can gain this monument on our soil in the very spot of their victory, it will be priceless to them. They could care less about what our constitution says and our silly ideas about religious freedom. They don’t preach religious freedom now, they won’t all of a sudden think the Koran is wrong and the US constitution is right. You need to look at this from the eyes of the typical people who are tempted to align themselves with al-Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam.

The people we are fighting aren’t constitutional scholars, in fact they hate the constitution and are fighting against it. They see it as a weakness of ours. They will simply laugh in our face while dining on the 15th story of this building.
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👍👍👍 you make some very good points.
 
Interesting quotes from the Quran about how they should behave regarding others.
How about some quotes about how Christians should behave toward ‘others’?

Love thy neighbor as thyself
Love him that persecutes you
How many times should we forgive? Seven times Seventy, or basically, infinately.

This doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to threats, but also that we don’t judge
unfairly, either. Either they have the right or not. If you agree they do, then
deal with it. Either that or go round up some money of your own and buy the
land and build your own worship center there. It’s your right, too, after all.

If it had been Baptists or Catholics or Lutherans who were behind 9/11, would you
feel the same about a church of their choosing going up here? Why or why not?
 
TC2 said:
Interesting quotes from the Quran about how they should behave regarding others.
How about some quotes about how Christians should behave toward ‘others’?

Love thy neighbor as thyself
Love him that persecutes you
How many times should we forgive? Seven times Seventy, or basically, infinately.

This doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to threats, but also that we don’t judge
unfairly, either. Either they have the right or not. If you agree they do, then
deal with it. Either that or go round up some money of your own and buy the
land and build your own worship center there. It’s your right, too, after all.

If it had been Baptists or Catholics or Lutherans who were behind 9/11, would you
feel the same about a church of their choosing going up here? Why or why not?
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i cannot consider baptists, catholics or lutherans being capable of anything like 9/11.
why would they want to kill americans and destroy our economy? why would they desire to kill as many americans as possible and terrorize the rest of the united states and the world at the same time?

you yourself say it doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to threats. there are people who are trying to stop this mosque being built because it seems insensitive and many family members of people killed on 9/11 oppose it.
 
Don’t be naive. Those quotes were written in the first half of the quran which were peaceful. On the second half when Mohammed couldn’t get people to convert to Islam, he turned to violence and forced conversion. That’s when you start to see verses about killing infidels and other violent activities.
TC2 said:
Interesting quotes from the Quran about how they should behave regarding others.
How about some quotes about how Christians should behave toward ‘others’?

Love thy neighbor as thyself
Love him that persecutes you
How many times should we forgive? Seven times Seventy, or basically, infinately.

This doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to threats, but also that we don’t judge
unfairly, either. Either they have the right or not. If you agree they do, then
deal with it. Either that or go round up some money of your own and buy the
land and build your own worship center there. It’s your right, too, after all.

If it had been Baptists or Catholics or Lutherans who were behind 9/11, would you
feel the same about a church of their choosing going up here? Why or why not?
Click to expand...
 
Mugen, those quotes are from the Bible, Christ’s own words, and are directed at Christians in regards to the rest of the world.

How many people that oppose this mosque pray for the souls of these people? How many pray for the salvation of terrorists?

It just seems that it’s really become an ‘us vs. them’ thing, that the main objective is
to ‘stop’ them. I think that we’ve lost sight of our real goal, the winning of souls to Christ.

After all, we all know who wins in the end, right? Everything else is just filler.
But we should make sure that there are as many saved at the end as we can.

Here’s an ‘American’ quote, paraphrased:

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the
death your right to say it.

So, shouldn’t we be fighting for the rights of these people, to build
where they legally can? Freedom of religion is freedom for all.

It may not be sensitive, but the bottom line is that it is legal, and
we should uphold that, feelings aside. Otherwise, we violate our
own Constitution.
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
Is it also insensitive to have Christian churches near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing?
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Tim McVeigh was an atheist.

americanthinker.com/blog/2010/08/if_timothy_mcveigh_had_been_a.html

In fact, Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh, was a self-proclaimed atheist, whose mantra was “Science is my religion.” That, of course, did not stop the media and the self-appointed liberal “watchdogs” from blaming the bombing of the Murrah Building on the Christian right.
Let us suppose that McVeigh was a member of some particularly wrathful Christian sect, one with worldwide tentacles. Let us say that church members believed in polygamy, genital mutilation, the suppression of women’s rights, capital punishment for homosexuals, and the violent imposition of their own law upon the land.

Let us say, too, that the less overtly hostile members of that sect chose to build a 13-story church and cultural center overshadowing the Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum at the site where the Murrah Building once stood. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, let us say that they too pretended that their project was something other than an end-zone dance on the memories of the dead.

Given these circumstances, would any liberal anywhere in America, let alone President Obama, make self-righteous noises about this sect’s right to religious freedom? Would any liberal anywhere impute bigotry to those who challenged the Church of McVeigh’s towering thumb in America’s eye?

No, of course not. Our progressive friends would be leading the assault against the center. Hell’s bells, they are inevitably the one leading the assault when the local Presbyterian Church wants to expand its parking lot.
 
The real question here is: Is the Mosque being built on private property? If it is, then the government has no business stopping it. It may well be insensitive, but I shudder to think of the government being the arbiter of what insensitive projects should be allowed or not allowed. For example, the government could decide that a church next to an abortion clinic is insensitive.
 
Building the mosque that close to ground zero lacks common respect and sensitivity that people should have for one another without having to ask. Like asking your black neighbor if he minds you flying a six feet rebel flag in your yard.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
The real question here is: Is the Mosque being built on private property? If it is, then the government has no business stopping it. It may well be insensitive, but I shudder to think of the government being the arbiter of what insensitive projects should be allowed or not allowed. For example, the government could decide that a church next to an abortion clinic is insensitive.
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They absolutely have a right to the mosque there just as we absolutely have a right to vehemently criticize it. This is not about freedom of religion, rather it is about conflicting views as to what constitutes fostering understanding and tolerance. The legal tactics used to try and stop the building this mosque are no different than the legal strategies used to try to keep Wal-Mart out of supposedly progressive communities.
 
TC2 said:
Interesting quotes from the Quran about how they should behave regarding others.
How about some quotes about how Christians should behave toward ‘others’?

Love thy neighbor as thyself
Love him that persecutes you
How many times should we forgive? Seven times Seventy, or basically, infinately.

This doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to threats, but also that we don’t judge
unfairly, either. Either they have the right or not. If you agree they do, then
deal with it. Either that or go round up some money of your own and buy the
land and build your own worship center there. It’s your right, too, after all.

If it had been Baptists or Catholics or Lutherans who were behind 9/11, would you
feel the same about a church of their choosing going up here? Why or why not?
Click to expand...
They have the legal right to build. It is the wisdom of such an insensitive decision that is being vigorously questioned. Even Obama has backtracked here by noting as much.
As for what would the feelings be if it were Catholics invovled, the similar situation was the building of a convent overlooking Auschwitz. John Paul II deemed that this would be offensive, even though many Catholics died at Auschwitz too and Catholicism was in no way the reason for the camp in the first place.
He basically made the right decision. Even most people who agree with the building of the mosque agree with his decision of restraint.
If it centers on how close is too close, for sure if you are offending 70 % of Americans with your decision, that really ought to be the clue.
 
Hamas nod for Ground Zero mosque

Terror group’s leader: 'Have to build it’

A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero – insisting Muslims “have to build” it there.

“We have to build everywhere,” said Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas and the organization’s chief on the Gaza Strip.

Read more: nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI#ixzz0wmFKoL9K

Read more: nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI#ixzz0wmEifzyd
 
"9/11 Families Stunned by President’s Support of Mosque at Ground Zero

Statement of Debra Burlingame, Co-founder of 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, in Response to President Obama’s Remarks about the Ground Zero Mosque

New York, NY, Aug. 14–Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America’s heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see. Since that dark day, Americans have been asked to bear the burden of defending those values, again and again and again. Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. We must stand silent at the last place in America where 9/11 is still remembered with reverence or risk being called religious bigots. "…

Source and entire entry: bigpeace.com/fgaffney/2010/08/14/911-leader-responds-to-obamas-endorsement-of-gzm/
 
7_Sorrows said:
as i have said before, i am no longer shocked by what obama does. nothing surprises me anymore. obama’s backing of this mosque at ground zero seems like a natural choice for him. …
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This thread took off and I missed your post. Sorry about that.

I agree. History has shown that if I think one way regarding an issue, I can be pretty sure that Obama will hold the exact opposite opinion.
7_Sorrows said:
…2012 cannot come fast enough for me and i pray he will only be a one term president.
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I still find it surreal, even after all this time, that Obama was elected. He told us who he was and people didn’t listen. Evidence was there all along about what his values were, who he was, but many turned a blind eye to it, were taken in by the whole…something, I still don’t understand it. But, I agree, 2012 cannot come soon enough, though I’m not sure we can hold on that long. We may survive, but just barely. If we survive, can we prosper again or will the damage be too great?
 
Excerpt from commentary from America’s Right blog:

‘Right’ vs. ‘Should’

…Despite having the right to do so, and aside from all questions of forensic accounting and inflammatory statements, the Muslim group should not build its mosque and community center in lower Manhattan. Congressman Peter King calls it “insensitive” and “uncaring,” and maintains that the group is “needlessly offending” a great many people in New York City. I agree. And so should this president.

I understand that President Obama has made it so much a part of his mission to reach out to the Islamic community that he even has NASA on the job. I understand that. Instead, by not explaining otherwise, he finds himself standing firmly in favor of an act of defiance which will inevitably push deeper a wedge between Islam and the west, and will in the process spit in the face of those who lost their lives and those whose lives were changed forever on that crisp fall morning in 2001."

Source and entire entry: americasright.com/?p=5280
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
The Catholic church has had its share of public criticism that it has ignored, for the most part. Why haven’t they allowed women priests? Why haven’t they been quicker to deal with allegations of child abuse? Why don’t they allow condoms? etc etc

The public doesn’t care about Catholicism’s internal rationale for these things, nor do they go out of their way to find out. Similarly, you ignore and are willfully ignorant regarding the attitudes and practices of Islam.
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Apparently, shameless equivocation is the only trick in your bag.

If you can’t draw the distinction between a Church whose principles are so clear that they are literally spelled out in black-and-white in a Catechism that is universally available, and our President whose ‘principles’ are a political weathervane, then I’m afraid you have no business pronouncing upon this subject.

Naturally, the Church’s seeming immunity to public opinion is not always the most comfortable thing for the public to deal with. But we can praise it, as it does have principles that it can stick to.

Also, draw a distinction between ‘ignoring’ insofar as they have not changed their policy (the Church is not a democracy, and truth cannot be legislated, mind you) but have offered a response, and when an institution simply ‘covers its ears’, so to speak. The Church has already issued responses on all of the above, including the efficacy of abstinence education over prophylactics–a tack that has been proven in several African countries.
If the public ‘doesn’t care’ about the Church’s response… as you claim, and I agree …then they forfeit their right to say that the Church ‘ignores them’.

Now, having studied Islamic jurisprudence in Morroco, you’ll have to forgive me for objecting to your claim that I am ‘willfully ignorant’ regarding Islam. It only demonstrates that you ignore the heart and soul of Islam. Ask a Muslim to explain virtually any practice in Islam, and the response comes back: ‘Well, in 7th century Arabia during the time of the Prophet, …’.

That, my friends is the beginning and end of Islam. If you’re so knowledgeable, do respond to this important criticism–that Islam is only a condensed moral universe best suited to Bedouin raiders and Arabian merchant clans. I’ve been looking for an adequate answer, from actual clerics to information centers like the one they’re planning to build near the place where Muslims killed all of those Americans, and so far its been a major stumbling block…
 
A piece by Krauthammer.

"Sacrilege at Ground Zero
Even Mayor Bloomberg acknowledges that the rules are different when it comes to sacred places.

A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz).

When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there — and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized, or misappropriated."…

Entire article: nationalreview.com/articles/print/243668
 
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