Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[TheTrueCentrist]

Centrist, earlier in this thread you tried to illustrate your arguments by comparing it to Rosa Parks and racism towards black people in times earlier. I would like to do the same for you to understand what some (not all) people are trying to say in opposition to the particular location of the Mosque.

I have heard incredibly bigoted remarks by people who were victims of sex abuse of the clergy. While they would say things that I would vehemently disagree with (Iike all Priests are perverts), I would be very patient and careful of what I would say to them because its easy for me to fight back (verbally) but I have to say that I haven’t gone through what they went through and I think compassion is in order towards them.

That is all well and good, but say you went to do something to bridge the gap. You thought “I will both let them know that Catholics are not all paedophiles, and I will do something nice for their community.” They refuse you with bigoted language. Obviously you yourself do not want to confront them and let them know they are being bigots. However, you feel it is very important that they do realize that not all Catholics are evil. What do you do? You could give in to their demands, in which case they feel like they have beaten those darn Catholics, cementing their sense of superiority. Alternatively you could ignore them and carry out your plan, hoping that once it is done they will come around and learn about Catholicism.

In the Muslim’s case there is a third option. Give in to the demands and build the centre far away. I say that if they do build it farther away, people will feel as though they have “beaten” the Muslims and they will persist in bigotry, whether they are aware of it or not. Also, if the Muslims move, I worry that it will validate the insensitive and wildly inaccurate claims made by the opposition. I also believe that a centre 5 to 10 miles away would seriously handicap their outreach mission, as it makes it much harder for visitors to ground zero to get there.

As I see it, the Muslims are both sensitive, and legally justified in this project. The question of whether or not they will cave to unfounded opposition is ultimately up to them. As an outside observer, however, I cannot stand by and watch my Catholic counterparts make statements that are insensitive to the Muslims.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Kind of off topic here, but here goes.

I was thinking today that there is a sort of irony in the name “Cordoba Initiative”. Having also seen repeated Muslim references to Andalusia as “Al Andaluz” I don’t much doubt what is intended by the name “Cordoba Initiative”.

But there is a superficial irony to it, at least, doubtless unintended. For a long time, Muslims occupied most of Spain, with Cordoba being more or less their last foothold. During their reign, of course, Islam was supreme. After the Christian reconquest, Islam disappeared very quickly, notwithstanding that there were a lot of adherents to it before. Sure, some left. Some few were killed in battle. Some remained as Muslims, which the then-Christian state allowed them to do, though it wasn’t as advantageous as it was to convert. Most converted to Christianity.

Check your history,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain#Rule
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Culture
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#Non-Muslims_under_the_Caliphate

The Muslim rule of Spain is widely considered a golden age, and is considered unique in that the various other religions there were able to coexist more or less peacefully.

 

[Nordar]

We need a ‘pass out’ emoticon.

 

[Nordar]

… Your point being that sometimes people oppose things because they are insensitive? That was never the subject of discussion. The question I need answered is "why is the Islamic centre insensitive."

For a while I heard “because they are Muslims and Muslims attacked us.” Then I posted the summary below, and all I’ve gotten since is “its insensitive because we feel like it is” In which case I have to ask: why do you feel that way?

:yawn:

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

:yawn:

I feel the same way. If no one comes up with any better arguments I could go another 500 posts without having to think up any new ideas.

 

[livnlern]

In going back to the OP, Obama’s backing the mosque last Friday (although he softened his position on the matter the following day), Daniel Greenfield could not express the irony better and points to who the real bigots are:
Obama has made the case for Islam in America, on the grounds that America’s religious diversity promotes the religious freedom of all."

Excellent article. And the people at the dinner say a lot about who Obama is willing to support rather than taking the side of the 9/11 victims and their families:

“Let’s look at how some of the participants in Obama’s Iftar dinner embody that famous Islamic tolerance. There is Hassan Jaber, Executive Director of ACCESS. “ACCESS paid for commercial driving lessons and attempts at hazardous material hauling certificates for two men convicted as part of the Detroit Al-Qaeda sleeper cell. Testimony at their trial revealed that the men planned to bomb the MGM Grand Casino and a host of other prominent US sites.” (Debbie Schlussel). Access has funded a conference at which Sami Al Arian, of Islamic Jihad, spoke. There’s also Ingrid Mattson, who is against any reform of Islam and places loyalty to Islam before America. There’s MPAC’s Salam Al Marayat, who has defended Hezbollah who has been described as having “disturbing sympathies for Islamic terrorists”. Dalia Mogahed, an apologist for Sharia law and the subjugation of women. And those are only some of the names in attendance”.

Sounds like a Who’s Who of anti-Americans!

 

[Nordar]

]

Knowing that most people view the construction of this mosque so close to ground zero as being “insensitive” to the families of the 911 victims, do you have any idea which construction firm would be willing to take on this task? Maybe TheCentrist knows this answer?

URL="http://http://dnainfo.com/20100818/manhattan/world-trade-center-construction-workers-wear-their-mosque

https://aipnews.com/

New York construction workers will not lift a finger to help build Mosque

 

[bbarrick8383]

I feel the same way. If no one comes up with any better arguments I could go another 500 posts without having to think up any new ideas.

I think there is a lack of comprehension rather than a lack of of arguments.

 

[pete_29]

If they do build this Mosque, would it be insensitive of me to send them a Rosary or a Cross.

 

[estesbob]

I think there is a lack of comprehension rather than a lack of of arguments.

YUP

 

[Darryl1958]

livnlern;6966175a:

… Excellent article. And the people at the dinner say a lot about who Obama is willing to support rather than taking the side of the 9/11 victims and their families:
…

Obama to the family of the victims of 9/11, to paraphrase: “Suck it up, bigot babies. I won!”

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

YUP

Here, I’ll repost my summary of the arguments and you can point out where I missed your meaning.

1. Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
2. Support group: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive?
3. Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
4. Support group: But those involved with the Islamic centre, along with the majority of other Muslims, have denounced the terrorists’ interpretation of Islam. Therefore equating the two groups because of religion is not reasonable.
5. Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
6. Support group: No, but we have no reason to be suspicious. Why do you suspect the Muslims involved with the Islamic centre are lying about their beliefs and intentions?
7. Opposition group:
   a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
   b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.
   c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
   d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
8. Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)

 

[estesbob]

Here, I’ll repost my summary of the arguments and you can point out where I missed your meaning.

1. Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
2. Support group: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive?
3. Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
4. Support group: But those involved with the Islamic centre, along with the majority of other Muslims, have denounced the terrorists’ interpretation of Islam. Therefore equating the two groups because of religion is not reasonable.
5. Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
6. Support group: No, but we have no reason to be suspicious. Why do you suspect the Muslims involved with the Islamic centre are lying about their beliefs and intentions?
7. Opposition group:
   a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
   b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.
   c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
   d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
8. Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)

The only argument you have made is you are right and those who disagree with you are bigots-plus the classic telling of 9-11 survivors “to get over it” After that comment it is no suprise to anyone that you dont get it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Here, I’ll repost my summary of the arguments and you can point out where I missed your meaning.

3) Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.

As I pointed out before, the Imam knows as everyone else does that as soon as they put this Mosque in there will be a video of terrorists celebarting its construction.

5) Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.

This is a side issue. The Imam has said/done some things that some of us are a little leary about. Has he come out to denounce Hamas yet? There are terrorist sympathising Muslims in this country, they would no doubt be there celebrating the symbolic victory of that mosque.

a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.

Yes.

b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.

Shouldn’t we questions it’s motives? It is as far as I know the only religion that is currently slaughtering it’s own people on a daily basis.

c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.

I think this imam could have said/done several things by now to help put some peoples minds at ease. I understand this is the response you would love to see since you have put so much work in trying to convince others that your monotonous argument is right. But obviously you are failing to comprehend the other argument and failing to convince anyone.

8) Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)

For a change of pace I’ll refer to the typical parental response to their children.

Because I said so.

It can’t be defeated.

 

[Darryl1958]

All decent Muslims are embarrassed and ashamed that 3000 innocent people were annihilated in the name of their dear religion. All decent Muslims therefore give priority to the sensitivities of America at large to ensure that they are seen to be paying proper homage and respect to the lives destroyed in that event. They will take all steps possible to disassociate their God and their religion from even the appearance of disrespect to this holocaust that was done in the name of their religion.

Indecent people have no such qualms of course. They have the laws on their side, they have the political powers on their side, and that is all that matters to the indecent.

70% of New Yorkers who are offended by this kind of power play on behalf of the Mosque proponents and their politicians must in fact include a lot of liberals in their numbers. It is at least reassuring to a conservative such as myself that there are still many liberals who we may count as being members of the party of the decent.

 

[Darryl1958]

If they do build this Mosque, would it be insensitive of me to send them a Rosary or a Cross.

No. I think it would be very meaningful indeed to ensure that there are three thousand crosses surrounding the mosque for as long as it remains there. three thousand Catholics praying the rosary around the mosque every September 11 would be a very touching gesture indeed.

It would be very sensitive indeed for New Yorkers to remember their fallen in this way.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

As I pointed out before, the Imam knows as everyone else does that as soon as they put this Mosque in there will be a video of terrorists celebarting its construction.

So the fact that he practices a form of Islam that has itself been the subject of radical terrorist attacks won’t dissuade the terrorists?

This is a side issue. The Imam has said/done some things that some of us are a little leary about. Has he come out to denounce Hamas yet? There are terrorist sympathising Muslims in this country, they would no doubt be there celebrating the symbolic victory of that mosque.

Please watch this talk he gave: ted.com/talks/imam_feisal_abdul_rauf.html

Daddy, why can’t I go to the community center with the Muslim boy?

Because I said so.

 

[tjm190]

I’ll be sure to let the world’s Muslims know that their interpretation of the Qu’ran has been incorrect for the past 1400 years or so.

Do you know how I can get a hold of all major fiqhs, to let them know they need to start admitting Christians and Jews into Mecca and Medina?

/sigh. You did a splendid job of responding to a claim I did not make.

I did not say Christians and Jews could enter holy sites.

I said we are not idolators- idolators refers to those who practice idolatry, i.e. polytheists.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

I was thinking today that there is a sort of irony in the name “Cordoba Initiative”. Having also seen repeated Muslim references to Andalusia as “Al Andaluz” I don’t much doubt what is intended by the name “Cordoba Initiative”.

…

The planned mosque near Ground Zero, to be named Cordoba House, has created a huge firestorm, indeed. Discussion is fever pitch in all levels of the reading population, media, the blog world and various fora on the Internet.

Mr. Daniel Greenfield has a very interesting take: that Islam makes war not just on lands and bodies, but memory itself. The goal is to make people forget. Hence sacred sites to Jews and Christians are Islamized, and history is distorted, replaced with an Islamic version, e.g., Muslim “tolerance” in Spain, the Palestinian Arab “refugees”, etc. History is revised such that oppression becomes tolerance, repression becomes knowledge, and the oppressors become the victims.

As for the Cordoba House name, if/when built, this is what he says:

“The name Cordoba House is entirely appropriate for the Ground Zero mosque, because it represents a false history. The story of Cordoba and Ground Zero are linked, in that they are both stories of Muslim terror, covered up with lies about Muslim tolerance. And the Cordoba House is part of a comprehensive effort to pervert the history of September 11, as comprehensively as that of Cordoba or Jerusalem. To replace it with their narrative, in which they are the victims, and we are the oppressors. And to allow that history to stand, is to destroy the meaning of our own culture and accept our subjugation, in history, if not yet in fact.”

Mr. Greenfield adds:

“The Great Lie told and retold over and over again for the last 9 years, is that Islam was not responsible for 9/11. That lie has been repeated over and over again. It has permeated our culture. It has filled our media. The politicians have echoed it. Books and articles are written that treat it as something every reasonable person understands. Islam had nothing to do with 9/11. Not a damn thing.

The Ground Zero mosque is that lie made flesh. It is that revisionist history given physical form, turned into brick and mortar, steel and cement, raised up to the sky, to look down mockingly on the Ground Zero construction site itself, and the people who come there to reflect and remember. It mocks their memories. It mocks the dead. [bold mine] Its arrogance is the same as that of the Muslim burners of the Great Library of Alexandria, of Hanan Ashrawi claiming there was no Jewish connection to Joseph’s Tomb, or Anwar Al-Awlaki, who had advised the 9/11 hijackers, telling reporters after the attacks that Islam opposes terrorism. It is an act of beheading, not of flesh, but of identity. It takes a blade and saws at the neck of a culture, cutting off its head through lies and deceit.”

Full Article here.

Btw, contrary to TheTrueCentrist’s opinion, the author seems to take the long view in his writings, and not being short sighted at all.

Good reasons for not building the mosque at Park51 have already been laid out, but Centrist can focus on two operative words: sensitivity and decency.

Further, I read / listen to a lot of TED speeches. I do not believe Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf’s speech made it to the inspiring or persuasive category.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Obama to the family of the victims of 9/11, to paraphrase: “Suck it up, bigot babies. I won!”

yes, he is famous for reminding the rest of us that “he won” so it’s his way now. i can’t imagine how the families of the victims of 9/11 must feel. have any of these families spoken out in favor of this mosque? i know that many families have spoken loudly of their opposition to the mosque.