Obama intensifies push for ‘Buffett Rule’

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You obviously only see the GOP through rose colored glasses. My point was that some of the worst examples of ethics, abortion legislation and traditional family values in the presidency and its candidates have been on the Republican side. I was not describing how government works. I view a lot of the rhetoric and propaganda and about political parties, from all sides, as a form of idolatry and remain an independent with my focus on Christ.
Before you go off halfcocked I am not a GOP supporter and have even voted for some democrats.

I don’t think the GOP is running a holier than thou campaign. Some Democrats and currently a majority of Republicans just seem more in line with what us poor dumb unwashed illiterate peasants don’t want. Like we don’t want homosexual marriage, abortion on demand, partial birth abortion, infanticide, eugenics, fetal stem cell research, euthanasia, health care rationing, death panels, forced violation of conscience, generational welfare, (open borders, illegal immigration)** and bastardry. In short it seems they don’t want the government subsidizing or rewarding and encouraging every sin in the calendar.

** I think this is more apropos for the rank and file not the elites

Lastly Roe wasn’t passed it was imposed by 5 dudes in black robes who took abortion laws from a state concern and found in the penumbra of the constitution a national right that never existed and really still doesn’t exist except in the obdurate justices refusing to admit they screwed up.
 
And it is a morally justifiable thing to fail to defend “them” (the bogeyman “them”… the kulaks, “the rich”) when someone thinks to despoil them out of sheer malicious envy? And where does one stop with that? Does one million qualify one as one of “THEM”? $500,000? A 1000 acre farm? A 250 acre farm? What? Where does the malice stop.

Perhaps a leftist on here can tell us where the bright line is that separates “us” from the odious “them”. Obama has been all over the place in defining the hated “them”. Perhaps some leftist on here can do better.
IMHO the politics of envy became really wide spread in this country with the beginning of the progressive movement and the idea government can solve all your problems. I am only surprised we have taken so long to hit bottom. I guess and I hate to say it but the WASP ethics and the old Baltimore Catechism were strong bulwarks and took quite a while before they collapsed. All good things end and so will this society. It is just a shame that’s all.
 
Hello Suudy. I think you will have to tolerate an edit.

We’ve seen a lot of “at worse” from The Republicans.
  1. Absurd tax cuts.-The extension of the Bush tax cuts.
  2. Serious errosion of the rights of workers.- Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio…
  3. Basic childishness in the face of Dept limit legislation- “Shut it down, shut it down, shut it down”.
For the sake of conversation, let’s assume this is true. How do these even come close to the evil of abortion?
 
For the sake of conversation, let’s assume this is true. How do these even come close to the evil of abortion?
Many people on these forums refuse to understand this. We can have a legitamate debate about the proper level of taxation or what rights public workers should have or what government programs should exsist. These things don’t equate abortion or any of the other non-negotiables.
 
This little snippet from earlier is very illuminating - it shows the liberal/left standard for charitability which is based not on donations of one’s own money or time, but rather on how much one supports the confiscation of others’ money. So the liberal who supports taxing the rich to fund government programs is “charitable” while the conservative who supports private organizations with their own money and wants to balance the budget is “anti-poor.” That about sums up the liberal/left view in all its absurdity.

Also, memo to Et Cetera - the GOP is anti-euthenasia, anti-fetal stem cell research, anti-abortion (as you know) and pro-traditional marriage. Also, the GOP is more in line with Catholic teaching on the principle of subsidiarity. So its more than just one issue that the GOP is in line with Church teaching. The Democrat party is on the wrong side of all those issues I just listed.

Ishii
I read through all the responses and hoped one of the “tax and spend” Leftists had a response because Ishii is exactly right about the attitude of the Left. They think there is something noble about demanding someone else’s money to be used at their direction for whatever sacred cow happens to be at the forefront. It results from the theory of victimization…it’s always someone else’s fault. Someone else caused your problems so someone else needs to solve them. We hear far more about people’s rights than their responsibilities. That half of the equation seems to be missing as the Left demands more of OPM. There is nothing charitable about that attitude.

OTOH if anyone questions ever increasing spending on whatever the Left thinks is important (green energy, controlling healthcare, duplicate and inefficient social services programs) they are ‘haters’ or don’t care about the poor or bridges falling down or they are waging a war on women.

So Leftists, tell me how demanding more of OPM is charitable?

Lisa
 
I think this is pretty much, a side step. If you could show me a government that doesn’t tax and spend. That would be something.

The problem remains, a group of people that wish to hold on to wealth. 🤷 They don’t care about households that are run by single woman. They don’t care about bridges that collapse into the river. They don’t care about droughts and tremendous wildfires that scar the landscape. They care about their wealth. That people defend them, still baffles me.

ATB
Not one thing you have said above is true and you have provided nothing but your opinion. To claim that people don’t care not only flies in the face of reality (check statistics on who gives the most to charity) but shows an amazing arrogance that you think you can look into someone else’s heart. Paying taxes does not demonstrate caring for anyone and demanding someone else’s money is not a charitable endeavor. Why can’t you tell the difference?

Aside from yet another strawman set ablaze you are woefully uninformed about “tremendous wildfires that scar the landscape.” I LIVE in the land of wildfires and it has been the ENVIRONMENTALISTS who have demanded the scorched earth policy. Remember when Yellowstone burned? They were prevented from fighting that fire by a policy of letting nature run its course. Ditto with many fires on public lands. The policy is let it burn. Let it alone.

To a certain extent fires clean up the environment, clear the underebrush and duff, but there has to be a tradeoff between burn baby burn and Smokey the Bear putting out every small blaze. Managed forests are far healthier than those left to the whims of Mother Nature who’s maternal instincts seem decidedly lacking.

Oh and please tell me about the bridges that collapsed due to Republicans standing in the way of repairs?

Lisa
 
I read through all the responses and hoped one of the “tax and spend” Leftists had a response because Ishii is exactly right about the attitude of the Left. They think there is something noble about demanding someone else’s money to be used at their direction for whatever sacred cow happens to be at the forefront. It results from the theory of victimization…it’s always someone else’s fault. Someone else caused your problems so someone else needs to solve them. We hear far more about people’s rights than their responsibilities. That half of the equation seems to be missing as the Left demands more of OPM. There is nothing charitable about that attitude.

OTOH if anyone questions ever increasing spending on whatever the Left thinks is important (green energy, controlling healthcare, duplicate and inefficient social services programs) they are ‘haters’ or don’t care about the poor or bridges falling down or they are waging a war on women.

So Leftists, tell me how demanding more of OPM is charitable?

Lisa
I have proposed this little thought experiment several times in the past and have yet to get a decent response, other than they are not the same taxes are demanded by governments like that makes them moral. Or they are moral because our government votes for them.

What is the difference???

Scenario 1
My grandma needs food, medicine, heat in the winter and a roof over her head. She doesn’t have enough money. I am a good and dutiful grandson so I buy a gun some ammo and start holding up everyone I can demand their money or their life.

Scenario 2
My grandma needs food, medicine, heat in the winter and a roof over her head. She doesn’t have enough money. I am a good and dutiful grandson so I get a lobbyist start haranguing legislatures about my grandmother plight asking for state money to alleviate her suffering. I do fund raisers and press conferences, denouncing those who oppose are heartless haters et cetera. I also fashion the law so many people can get in on the racket. I get a law passed and public money for granny.

The only difference I see is the second scenario uses the coercion of the state to accomplish what I was willing to do for free. Well, maybe almost free, keeping 20% of the take for my ammunition expenses, time, and travel.

Perhaps I am missing something so can someone help me out?
 
Persuader please READ THE SENTENCE. I said this DOESN"T MEAN all single moms etc.
You argued that single mothers shouldn’t get more money because they are drug addicted and crazy. Sure you qualify the statement by saying that it doesn’t concern everyone, but you do think it concerns a big portion, or you wouldn’t mention it. So, no, I was right in calling you out on it, and I find your backpedaling amusing.
Uh I think it’s obvious. The solution to much of our poverty and social ills is to make better decisions—get married before you get pregnant, get through high school, avoid drugs and get a job.
Are you having a laugh? So your solution is to tell people to make better decisions. I have to ask, do you think people are told that it’s a good idea to drop out of high school and do drugs? Do you think people are told that unplanned pregnancy is a good idea? People don’t do this because they think it’s a great idea. These problems are societal, and to get people to make better decisions will require several different measures.
I have no problem with higher wages for workers.
So, are you against unions or not?
Not sure what education reforms you speak of.
Free tuition for college students to make college more meritocratic (notice that this proposal was made in a moral context. Economically, it might not be feasible today).
National debt currently 15 TRILLION and change…
That was not the question. You gave reasons for the deficit. I wanted a source to confirm that the reasons you gave are the actual reasons.
Great in theory but who will PAY these wages?
Companies will pay, but I see that you are worried about the Price/wage spiral. Now, this is not as big a worry as you seem to think. Firstly, competition is meant to discourage business owners from raising prices. Secondly, rising labor productivity compensate the employer for higher labor costs (and labor productivity has risen considerably in the US in recent decades. Unfortunately, unions have been butchered in the meantime, ensuring that workers didn’t take advantage of that).
I truly don’t see how your theory works.
There are many ways to do it. One of the ways (which is implemented in all western countries today) is tariffs. Another way is higher productivity, although this is under pressure for certain sectors. A third way is by increasing funding for education, innovation and alternative energy. I have already talked about education, but there needs to be more money given to research and development. If you have the new ideas, and only you know how to do it, China cannot do it. Also, one could well afford to take a leaf out of the German book, so one can have the best qualified workers (which means openings for those more suited to manual labor) to make that innovation a reality (essentially increasing worker productivity by superior training).
My understanding is our tax RATES are higher than any other developed country. That they might be low with respect to the GDP doesn’t matter to Apple or GE.

How does discouraging businesses with high taxes, high wages and lots of regulations translate into a booming economy and high employment? It doesn’t make any sense.
The corporate taxes in the US are admittedly a mess, but they don’t pay very much at the end of the day (due to creative bookkeeping). The effective corporate tax rate is well below the OECD average (you can check this on the OECD website). It’s also interesting to notice how Australia has one of the highest effective corporate tax rates, yet appears to be considered one of the best performers on the IoEF presented by the Heritage Foundation (of which you seem to give a lot of weight). Unfortunately, the current system has the consequence of shifting the burden from big corporations (with money and competence to take full advantage of loopholes) to smaller business. At the same time, tax rates in general are very low (I have provided data for this ITT).

High wages and regulation is a different animal all together. We know that other western countries pay workers better, yet they still compete. It should also be noted that many of the low-paying jobs are not jobs that compete with foreign countries. Low-paying jobs in the service-sector, like cashier at Walmart (and the like) cannot be moved to China. With these kinds of jobs, there is a lot of room for improvement.

And again, there is evidence that moderate increases in minimum wage doesn’t have employment effects, nor is it the case that right-to-work states (with a lower average wage) have better employment numbers. However, we do see strong wage effects, which also functions as stimulus for the economy (spending increases demand and thus profits from satisfying that demand). So it does make sense.
THere are programs that DO work and instead of continuing to throw money at wasteful and ineffective programs, why doesn’t the government search out SUCCESSFUL programs and learn from those models?
Right. So where is the initiative for this kind of proposal? I’ve never heard a word of it. And again, for it to make any real difference, it would have to be extensive. Who is going to pay for it?
I don’t think your theory will work and the last thing we need in this economy is more burden on employers.
Employers are generally not burdened. The widening income inequality is evidence that employers are only getting richer and richer. There needs to be a demand for their supply as well, and this is where higher wages come in.
 
Can you at least admit that unmarried mothers are far more likely to be dependent on government services than married mothers?
Sure there is a correlation. Here’s a correlation: atheist couples are less likely to divorce. Now, I mention Spain and Italy to remind you that there are underlying factors that drive the correlations. We have to deal with them. Spain is a fairly religious country, where people get married and stay together. What has changed? Well, there is more economic and societal pressure to have a longer education, which means that people settle down later. Wages are often not high enough for only one parent to work, so both have to work. This, and other economic factors, contribute strongly to lower fertility rates (less people getting together. Having fewer children when getting together). Some northern European countries have tried to combat low fertility rates with extensive welfare-programs. I have mentioned some already, like paid maternity leave. There is also heavily subsidizes child-care for working parents. The result is higher fertility rates, but at a significant cost. The point is, even if there is a change in culture, economic and societal reality puts pressure on behavior that leads to fewer marriages and low fertility.

I am not saying that there are no cultural problems among certain minorities in the US. Nor am I saying it should be ignored. But there are economic realities that ties in with all this. Even if black fathers wanted a serious relationship instead of bailing on their kids, they would need to see some real opportunity. People need to feel respected and get a decent wage, even without a college education - perhaps even without a high school education. One clearly needs to change the underlying economic and societal pressures that drive behavior, and I don’t think you can change culture on a wide scale without changing that as well.
And your point is? I don’t have any problem with the theory of progressive taxation. I do have a problem when half of Americans pay nothing and something like 40% of the taxes are paid by the top 10%. That’s not progressive, that’s oppresive.
No, it’s still progressive, but let’s look at the substance. First of all, when you say that half of Americans pay “nothing”, you mean federal income tax. Second of all, you need to realize the reason why they don’t pay federal income tax, and why the top brackets pay a large share of total income tax. The reason is not that the top brackets pay a high percentage of their own income. No, it’s because their income, relative to the lower brackets, is so high that even a relatively small percentage of their income constitutes a high percentage of total income tax. To spell out the idea: 15% of 500.000 is more than 50% of 100.000.

In countries with lower income inequality, the lower brackets pay more taxes. Why? Because they have more money relative to the higher brackets. So, if you want the lower brackets to pay more taxes, you can increase their pre-tax income and decrease the income gap, which is what I have suggested.
 
You argued that single mothers shouldn’t get more money because they are drug addicted and crazy. Sure you qualify the statement by saying that it doesn’t concern everyone, but you do think it concerns a big portion,
You have drawn your own conclusion out of your incredibly creative imagination, not my statement. I can’t stop you from making things up if that suits your position. I have bolded your assumption…remember what assume means? How do you know what I think? I never said “a big portion” of single mothers are drug addicted crazies. You simply decided that suited your continuing ad hominem tactics.
Are you having a laugh? So your solution is to tell people to make better decisions. I have to ask, do you think people are told that it’s a good idea to drop out of high school and do drugs? Do you think people are told that unplanned pregnancy is a good idea? People don’t do this because they think it’s a great idea. These problems are societal, and to get people to make better decisions will require several different measures.
Apparently people think these actions will benefit them in some fashion. My belief is that impulse control is lacking. Actually there is much evidence that whether one is able to defer gratification is a strong indicator of future success. This trait can be demonstrated at a very young age. Those who are drawn to drugs, promiscuity, dropping out of school, tend to be those who have never developed this trait.

Unfortunately as we have multi-generational dependence, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as children do not see this behavior modelled by their parents. Instead they see reward for not working, not studying, not trying to support their families through the medium of government payments. They see males (I cannot refer to them as MEN) who take no responsibility for their women or their children. Is it any surprise that this behavior has become ingrained in certain cultures? When I was a kid I remember a commercial that had the refrain “Children learn what they live.” I think that was true then and is true now.

Although Newt Gingrich was attacked for suggesting that children in poor urban schools be paid to do janitorial or cafeteria work, he had a good point. Getting a reward for productive behavior will tend to encourage that behavior. Aside from that how many of us had to work in the school cafeteria, sweep the classroom or empty trashcans? It was certainly an element of my education. For some reason the Left doesn’t want poor children to “learn to earn” instead of just to take government support.

As to “these problems are societal” is a canard. Really? Society is scheming to induce young girls to have babies out of wedlock,drop out of school, or take drugs. You really think this is true? Again the tactic of the Left is to deflect responsibility onto others while screaming for rights.
So, are you against unions or not?
No problem with unions in the private sector. I am against certain union tactics that use violence, threats of violence, intimidation etc.

Do you approve of such methods as a means to an end?
Free tuition for college students to make college more meritocratic (notice that this proposal was made in a moral context. Economically, it might not be feasible today).
Who will pay for it? We already have substantial sums of government money going to colleges. Again you have a lot of ideas but no way to pay for them without pilching from someone else. Aside from that, there are many statistics demonstrating the more government subsidies to colleges, the higher the tuition.

I do find it funny when I mention a successful program (private charity not government) you extrapolate it to some nationwide movement and then demand “Who will pay for it?” I could ask you the same thing.

Lisa
 
No, it’s still progressive, but let’s look at the substance. First of all, when you say that half of Americans pay “nothing”, you mean federal income tax. .
Actually about 50% pay no FICA tax either.

ssa.gov/pubs/10024.html#a0=0
Second of all, you need to realize the reason why they don’t pay federal income tax, and why the top brackets pay a large share of total income tax. The reason is not that the top brackets pay a high percentage of their own income. No, it’s because their income, relative to the lower brackets, is so high that even a relatively small percentage of their income constitutes a high percentage of total income tax. To spell out the idea: 15% of 500.000 is more than 50% of 100.000…
Wrong.

taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html#table1

The top 1% has 16.9% of the income but 36% of the taxes. The bottom 50% has 13.5% of the income and only 2.3% of the tax.
 
I have proposed this little thought experiment several times in the past and have yet to get a decent response, other than they are not the same taxes are demanded by governments like that makes them moral. Or they are moral because our government votes for them.

What is the difference???

Scenario 1
My grandma needs food, medicine, heat in the winter and a roof over her head. She doesn’t have enough money. I am a good and dutiful grandson so I buy a gun some ammo and start holding up everyone I can demand their money or their life.

Scenario 2
My grandma needs food, medicine, heat in the winter and a roof over her head. She doesn’t have enough money. I am a good and dutiful grandson so I get a lobbyist start haranguing legislatures about my grandmother plight asking for state money to alleviate her suffering. I do fund raisers and press conferences, denouncing those who oppose are heartless haters et cetera. I also fashion the law so many people can get in on the racket. I get a law passed and public money for granny.

The only difference I see is the second scenario uses the coercion of the state to accomplish what I was willing to do for free. Well, maybe almost free, keeping 20% of the take for my ammunition expenses, time, and travel.

Perhaps I am missing something so can someone help me out?
The third possibility, of course, is that you reduce your own consumption and help Grandma out from your own resources. A fourth would be that you first seek help from family, then the Church, then the county, then the state, and so on. Subsidiarity.

But that’s not your point, I just couldn’t help saying it.

The difference is that we consider laws duly passed to be legitimate exercises of the right of governments to govern. Granted, some laws are unconscionable, because governments can go immoral. Some methods of affecting laws are also immoral.

But we do have to be careful about seizing the assets of others in the name of charity, precisely because many times there is no charity involved, in reality, but vote-buying.
 
The third possibility, of course, is that you reduce your own consumption and help Grandma out from your own resources. A fourth would be that you first seek help from family, then the Church, then the county, then the state, and so on. Subsidiarity.
But in this case, neither republicans nor democrats advocate this, they are both in favor of redistributionist medicare and social security. Part D of medicare is pure redistribution and a pure violation of subsidiarity and republicans are for the most part to blame for it.
 
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