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SamH
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The only atrocity John Kerry personally saw was committed by John Kerry when he murdered a wounded unarmed teenager. He covers this story in his book.
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Holly3278
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Isn’t John Kerry a Catholic? If so, he’s a cafeteria Catholic, right? I mean, I think he is pro-abortion and if he is indeed pro-abortion and also Catholic then he is definitely a cafeteria Catholic.
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JimR-OCDS
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You left out the post by estesbob where he brought up rapist and murders, which I replied to.
Go back and review your chain, it’s flawed.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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LisaA
Most soldiers served honorably, but the fact of the Vietnam War was that the US Soldier was frustrated with the way the war was being handled by the government.
They were also frustrated by Vietnamese helping the VC, while the US was trying to keep them free. Many took their frustration out on those people. Again, read about the My Lai Massacre. The only difference with My Lai is, there was a journalist there who reported it, but it was not an isolated case.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
Two guys who served with me in Okinawa, had served with Korean ROK Marines in Vietnam. One was an officer the other an enlisted-man. The ROK Marines tortured and raped prisoners with just about every encounter with village people they came onto. They did things that US Soldiers would go to jail for. However, the US Marines attached were seen by Vietnamese villagers and those people turned against the US occupation very quickly.
I’m sorry you have this romanticized notion of how the Vietnam War was fought, but the fact is, where there is injustice, immorality is also present.
There is a vast difference between the professional soldiers we have today, compared to the draftees of the Vietnam War era.
Jim
I served in the Marines with those who were given the option of jail or Marines. They regretfully chose the Marines and yes, brought their criminal mentality with them.
Fine, but I have the experience, you don’t.
Those who were let given pardons in exchange for going into the military, had their records cleared.
In Vietnam, they were not as rare as you would like to convince yourself of.
Most soldiers served honorably, but the fact of the Vietnam War was that the US Soldier was frustrated with the way the war was being handled by the government.
They were also frustrated by Vietnamese helping the VC, while the US was trying to keep them free. Many took their frustration out on those people. Again, read about the My Lai Massacre. The only difference with My Lai is, there was a journalist there who reported it, but it was not an isolated case.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
Two guys who served with me in Okinawa, had served with Korean ROK Marines in Vietnam. One was an officer the other an enlisted-man. The ROK Marines tortured and raped prisoners with just about every encounter with village people they came onto. They did things that US Soldiers would go to jail for. However, the US Marines attached were seen by Vietnamese villagers and those people turned against the US occupation very quickly.
I’m sorry you have this romanticized notion of how the Vietnam War was fought, but the fact is, where there is injustice, immorality is also present.
There is a vast difference between the professional soldiers we have today, compared to the draftees of the Vietnam War era.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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The Winter Soldier Investigation was true.
Kerry didn’t testify about My Lai, I never said he did, but only brought it up to show that such events happened in Vietnam and was not isolated.
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
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Yeah but he wasn’t alone in doing such things in Vietnam, but he had the guts to admit it.
As I said earlier, there are things I don’t like about John Kerry, and I voted against him every
election. In fact I wanted Bill Weld for Senator when the two ran for the seat.
But it doesn’t disqualify him from becoming Secretary of State.
Jim
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LisaA
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Well I hope you never run into any brother Marines after the way you have characterized them. Amazing you know about these “many” Marines who were drafted “out of prison” but I can’t find the slightest evidence of this. I still do not believe you. The majority of troops in Vietnam weren’t even draftees, much less draftees out of prison. The stereotype of the brutal American troops has followed the Vietnam Vets for decades but is not true. The Winter Soldier project was found to be lacking in credibility, some of those testifying were not even IN Vietnam.
Again I do not deny that there were brutal acts during Vietnam, some justified, some not. But the point is not to refight the war but to point to Kerry’s actions and how it reveals his lack of character. Please re-read the testimony. It said these were not isolated incidents but daily occurrances carried out with the full support of the officers in the field. Again, this testimony was debunked. He used this opportunity to disparage his brothers in arms, not to help innocent Vietnamese who were being brutalized, but simply to forward his political aspirations.
The problem is that we have long memories and the attempt to play “war hero” during the 04 Convention in order to gloss over his trampling on the troops was IMO disgusting but not out of character. He is a smarmy opportunist but again, he’s a politician so the shoe fits. We’re stuck with him but as one pundit put it, perhaps he can bore our enemies into submission.
Lisa
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JimR-OCDS
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LisaA
Just get off your white horse and realize that not everyone who served in Vietnam, did so honorably.
Heck, read about Sen Bob Kerrey’s account on the Thanh Phong raid.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_incident_on_Hill_192
Yes, not every US soldier committed rape and murder in Vietnam, I never said that.
However, John Kerry’s account was from the Winter Soldier Investigation, where Vietman Vets testified on what they saw.
Jim
I characterized all Marines? Gesh.
Because the Marines stopped drafting by 1970. However, when they gave pardon to cons if they “enlisted,” their records were wiped clean. Also, I served with a Marine from NYC, who was arrested for breaking into a liqueur store. When he appeared in court, his father, a former SS Officer in the German Army, pleaded with the judge to let him off, if his son enlisted in the Marines, which is what happened. This Marne was on my gun team and we sat many hours at night talking about how we ended up in the Marines.
I’m not asking you to believe me.
Just get off your white horse and realize that not everyone who served in Vietnam, did so honorably.
Heck, read about Sen Bob Kerrey’s account on the Thanh Phong raid.
Read about the incident on Hill 192, which the movie Casualties of War was made after;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_incident_on_Hill_192
Yes, not every US soldier committed rape and murder in Vietnam, I never said that.
However, John Kerry’s account was from the Winter Soldier Investigation, where Vietman Vets testified on what they saw.
Jim
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LisaA
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Jim quit the strawman approach. Again, I’ve stated repeatedly that I am fully aware atrocities took place during the Vietnam (and all other ) War. The point being:
*John Kerry used made up and unsubstantiated testimony that was later debunked to further his political career
*John Kerry claimed such attrocities were daily acts and supported by the officers when this was also unsubstantiated and later debunked
*John Kerry was for the war (both Iraq and Vietnam) before he was against it before he was for it again…IOW his philosophies seemed to change with the political winds.
*John Kerry tried to distance himself from the medal throwing incident and emerge as a war hero at the 2004 Convention. IOW changing his persona to augment his political aspirations once again.
IMO there is a pattern of behavior that prevents my having the slightest bit of respect for the man. I think his testimony and his subsequent narrative about the Vietnam War and the troops was damaging to those troops and our country’s collective psyche. I may not have served in Vietnam but I’ve worked with Vietnam Vets, encountered them while volunteering for a troop support group and I’m getting married to one. They acknowledge horros like My Lai but they are totally in disagreement that such acts were commonplace. Further they were universally treated with disdain and disgust upon returning from Vietnam…not because of what THEY did during the war but because of the false narrative promoted by the likes of John Kerry.
Again, I’m not interested in refighting the war Jim, I’m just interested in the truth about Kerry and whether or not he will represent our country with honor. Nothing in his past gives me much hope of that…but the 2012 election didn’t give me much hope in any case. I think our country is going to suffer greatly because of whom we the people elected. Kerry is but a blip on the ever declining radar.
Lisa
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JimR-OCDS
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LisaA
The White Soldier Investigation, never proved that the Vietnam Vets who testified, lied, despite accusations by other Vets they had.
Personally, I think it was more denial from vets, which is what we’re seeing here in this thread.
On Iraq, he was wrong to support the war and he flipped flopped, which is par for the course on John Kerry, when he campaigns.
Fact is, despite his flaws, he’s also done some very good things.
Vietnam Vets were disrespected for sure, but John Kerry had nothing to do with it. That disrespect happened before his anti-war positions. In fact, he was still serving when much of the disrespect was being thrown at home coming servicemen.
If it wasn’t Kerry but another democrat, you’re agenda wouldn’t be any different.
I myself have to remember this, especially if Hilary Clinton decides to run for president in 2016.
God Bless
Jim
It was never debunked, but those who made accusations against him. Those who accused him did so with a political agenda.
The White Soldier Investigation, never proved that the Vietnam Vets who testified, lied, despite accusations by other Vets they had.
Personally, I think it was more denial from vets, which is what we’re seeing here in this thread.
Again, he never said they were daily, but again, he was using the information from the Winter Soldier Investigation, which were the stories of Vets who testified.
John Kerry became a Navy Officer and served in Vietnam. He turned against the war, which many other Vets including myself, did.
On Iraq, he was wrong to support the war and he flipped flopped, which is par for the course on John Kerry, when he campaigns.
He never distanced himself from the medal throwing, but cleared the facts behind it, in that they were not his medals that he threw. But this is rehashed information which was already posted on.
I don’t care whether you have respect for the man or not. That doesn’t negate his ability to serve as Secretary of State, which he will do, despite your dislike of the man.
Fact is, despite his flaws, he’s also done some very good things.
Hist testimony helped bring the war to an end. By the time he testified before Congress on the Vietnam War, the country was pretty much against the war. It’s how Nixon got elected, by promising to end the war.
Yeah I know. I had to land at Travis Air Force Base when I came home from Okinawa, because of the violence against returning Vets at the commercial airports.
Vietnam Vets were disrespected for sure, but John Kerry had nothing to do with it. That disrespect happened before his anti-war positions. In fact, he was still serving when much of the disrespect was being thrown at home coming servicemen.
You’re not interested in the truth, but whatever will damage public opinion toward John Kerry’s nomination by Obama.
If it wasn’t Kerry but another democrat, you’re agenda wouldn’t be any different.
Well that’s evident…
Put your trust in God, not politicians, regardless of their party affiliation and be sure not to participate in bearing false witness against people, even when their politicians you don’t like.
I myself have to remember this, especially if Hilary Clinton decides to run for president in 2016.
God Bless
Jim
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estesbob
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Amen!
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LisaA
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JimLisaA
Again, he never said they were daily, but again, he was using the information from the Winter Soldier Investigation, which were the stories of Vets who testified.
John Kerry became a Navy Officer and served in Vietnam. He turned against the war, which many other Vets including myself, did.
On Iraq, he was wrong to support the war and he flipped flopped, which is par for the course on John Kerry, when he campaigns.
He never distanced himself from the medal throwing, but cleared the facts behind it, in that they were not his medals that he threw. But this is rehashed information which was already posted on.
I don’t care whether you have respect for the man or not. That doesn’t negate his ability to serve as Secretary of State, which he will do, despite your dislike of the man.
Fact is, despite his flaws, he’s also done some very good things.
Hist testimony helped bring the war to an end. By the time he testified before Congress on the Vietnam War, the country was pretty much against the war. It’s how Nixon got elected, by promising to end the war.
Yeah I know. I had to land at Travis Air Force Base when I came home from Okinawa, because of the violence against returning Vets at the commercial airports.
Vietnam Vets were disrespected for sure, but John Kerry had nothing to do with it. That disrespect happened before his anti-war positions. In fact, he was still serving when much of the disrespect was being thrown at home coming servicemen.
You’re not interested in the truth, but whatever will damage public opinion toward John Kerry’s nomination by Obama.
If it wasn’t Kerry but another democrat, you’re agenda wouldn’t be any different.
Well that’s evident…
Put your trust in God, not politicians, regardless of their party affiliation and be sure not to participate in bearing false witness against people, even when their politicians you don’t like.
I myself have to remember this, especially if Hilary Clinton decides to run for president in 2016.
God Bless
Jim
You didn’t read the clip from Kerry apparently:
These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
He didn’t characterize the acts as the sad but realistic aspect of war, rather that the Vietnam troop was “reminiscent of Ghengis Khan.” I think his and other such overblown testimony had a LOT to do with the characterization of Vietnam vets as “baby killers.”
And no I do not place my faith in princes or politicians. But I do differentiate between those whom I believe care more about America than they do about their political careers…a rare characteristic on either side of the aisle but it does exist. Someone like the late Christopher Stevens was the kind of man I’d like to see as Secretary of State but thanks to the current resident in that slot, he won’t have the opportunity.
And I’m not quite the partisan hack you believe me to be. I am every bit as much against Chuck Hagel as John Kerry. I look at the individual and his/her position and accomplishments. I don’t just look for an R or a D behind their name.
Oh I’d LOVE to hear about Kerry’s accomplishments. Like most Senators, he’s simply 'famous for being famous." I would like to see the entire lot of them ride off into the sunset. A pox on both their Houses!
Lisa
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estesbob
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His greatest accomplishment was marrying a rich woman.
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SamH
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It is true in that the “Winter Soldier Investigation” happened - it’s findings were pure fiction. B. G. Burkett documented the fakes and liars in his book Stolen Valor.
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JimR-OCDS
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It was his opinion, which was never proven that those Vets who testified to what they saw was false.
Jim
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LisaA
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Not true Jim. There are a number of those who testified during the “Winter Soldier” production who later recanted, told they were pressuerd to either embellish or make up episodes that didn’t happen at all or not in the way they were portrayed. One example is the filming of troops cutting off the ear of a dead Viet Cong. When questioned they explained that a CBS cameraman had given them a knift and “enticed them” into cutting off the ear for the film. The cameraman admitted giving the troops the knife but denied he’d suggested what they do with it. Another prominent spokesman Steve Pitikin gave detailed testimony regarding how he was “recruited” for the Winter Soldier testimony and coached to make claims that were untrue. Further he testified having attended the medal throwing ceremony and said many of those “veterans” were not, the medals were not from the Vietnam war and many items tossed had been purchased from a local Army Navy store. It was basically a photo-op.
The reality was that (yeah I know it sounds a little crazy) VVAW had been funded and coached by North Vietnamese and communist interests. Kerry’s words were used as anti-American propaganda in a North Vietnamese newspaper. Jane Fonda was yet another funder of the organization. This was not IMO a grass roots organization with true concerns about the troops and what the war was doing to them but a very well orchestrated propaganda war to influence the US to pull out…and we did.
Honestly I’m not continuing to beat this dead horse because I want to refight the Vietnam War but I do think that Kerry’s involvement had much to do with his political ambitions and little to do with concern about how the Vietnam War was being fought. We didn’t lose on the battlefield, we lost in the court of public opinion. I do agree that the war was based on faulty information and with 20 20 hindsight we certainly should not have gotten involved to that extent. But I think the way the war was ended, the way the South Vietnamese were betrayed and left to the mercy (or lack thereof) of the VC was a disgrace. Only now is the reputation of the Vietnam Vet being rehabilitated and thankfully instead of being resentful, most of them are working toward a different response to our returning troops. On that they have succeeded.
Lisa
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JimR-OCDS
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In other words, it’s what YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.
Myself, nothing proves the testimonies of the Veterans as being false, but in fact, lines up with the Marines I served with, who saw similar things.
Jim
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LisaA
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Jim, it’s dueling sources. I also checked Wikipedia and there were flags on the entry with claims it was lacking in credibility, that there were false statements and read at your own peril. Wikipedia is not exactly the Holy Grail Jim, I hope you are aware of that. Just as I didn’t accept all of the words of Jerome Korsi even though I tend to agree with him, I know sometimes he’s not credible. Neither is Wikipedia. There are multiple sources with information and sworn testimony by participants in the Winter Soldier lalapalooza that they were coached, coerced or even pressured to spin the stories a certain way.
The Communist backing of VVAW was well documented. The objective was to turn public opinion against the war, not to save innocent South Vietnamese. Were we truly concerned with them we probably wouldn’t have abandoned them to the VC when we booked it outta there.
Futher the issue isn’t whether or not any atrocities happened during the Vietnam War but to point to Kerry’s associations, his questionable actions with respect to his brother troops in the quest for political glory.
I’m only glad we didn’t have him as President. Hopefully given his lack of energy, accomplishment and anything but further self aggrandizement, he won’t do too much damage to America as SoS.
Lisa
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SamH
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Actually what he documented was the fact that many of those that “testified” had never been in combat or even Vietnam, and many had never been in the army. Given those facts it was his “opinion” they could never have seen what they claimed.
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livingwordunity
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The epitome of hypocrisy is how liberals of the 70’s called Vietnam veterans “baby killers” while liberalized abortion has since killed more babies than the population of California.
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