Obama- urges court, Gay Marriage ban

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This argument has already been tried in earlier cases, and the court has rejected it. If I were you I would not rely on an argument that the court has previously turned down. You will note that none of the lawyers arguing before the Supreme Court used this argument, and they were correct to avoid it.

rossum
As I said, then truly justice IS blind.

Remember this Easter season, Pontius Pilate did find Jesus innocent, but because of the people, he felt he was forced to have Jesus crucified. Truly, in the wake of public sentiment, and perhaps its own warped reasoning power due to the socialization process over many years that robs even godly men of good portions of their heritage and faith, the court has turned a deaf ear to the key factor that makes sense. God instituted marriage, not man (CCC 1608). The court is guilty, and those who support such a decision are guilty, of a grave offense against both God and man. This issue will be revisited over an over again until the definition of marriage is reinstated, because, like the abortion issue, people of faith will not allow this desecration to stand, so long as this country remains free, If the court has in the past rejected the true definition of marriage, then let it reverse itself now and remove its shame.

PS-- There are plenty of arguments it could use to cover itself so as not to appear “religious,” if that’s what’s bothering it. Sadly, we have divorced faith from politics and law far too much and far too often in this country. A government and a legal system devoid of faith has a hollow ring to it. At the very least, it could respect the faith of people, even if it itself is faithless.
 
This argument has already been tried in earlier cases, and the court has rejected it. If I were you I would not rely on an argument that the court has previously turned down. You will note that none of the lawyers arguing before the Supreme Court used this argument, and they were correct to avoid it.

rossum
Like the “separate but equal” claim the AG tried using? It worked in Brown, but didn’t work in this case as evidenced by the beating the AG got from SCOTUS by both sides.
 
Since you’ve said this before, I’ll go ahead and say this again as well:
Ah yes yes, but there are reasons for forbidding these other types of marriage…

First cousins and other blood relatives-possibility for mutations in the genes if they reproduce

People and animals- animals cannot consent to the union or any sexual acts that might come about afterwards

Multiple people- this one is probably next after gay marriage, simply because people are free and my religion should not be pressed on anyone else simply because my holy book says their way of life is immoral.

In the marriage of a homosexual couple, each party can consent, and there is no chance for genetic mutations because the two cannot reproduce.

So you have effectively compared apples to oranges in your argument above, these other types of marriage are against the law for logical reasons, not just because my religion disagrees with them.
First cousins and other blood relatives-possibility for mutations in the genes if they reproduce?

Aids was created by homosexuality.
 
Aids was created by homosexuality.
False. AIDS was caused by SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) passing from chimpanzees and mangabeys to humans. Probably from eating undercooked meat, or by getting blood into an open cut. See here.

Whatever website you got that from is lying to you. Why do you believe websites that lie to you?

rossum
 
Krauthammer: Making it Unconstitutional to Deny Gay Marriage Will Lead to an Assault on Religion

Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University in New York refused to allow gay couples to live in married student housing. In 2001 the New York Supreme Court forced the university to allow gay couples to live in married student housing even though gay marriage was not legal at the time:

libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=65
Krauthammer is right. If the SCOTUS decides that to deny gay marriage is unconstitutional, there WILL be an assault on religion. There will be no way to avoid it. If a Catholic, or a Baptist or other religiously oriented university has housing for married couples, it will be sued for not accepting homosexual couples. It’s going to get ugly.
 
The best construction I can put on this statement is that the AIDS epidemic may have been caused largely by homosexual practice. Is that what you meant?
Even if he meant that, he would be wrong. The majority of AIDS cases in the world are in Africa, and the great majority of African cases are due to heterosexual transmission.

America is not the world.

rossum
 
Even if he meant that, he would be wrong. The majority of AIDS cases in the world are in Africa, and the great majority of African cases are due to heterosexual transmission.

America is not the world.

rossum
America is not the world, indeed. But activist gays all over the world look to the U.S. and this president to help with their agenda to legalize gay ‘marriage’ across borders.

As for AIDS demographics of the country that holds the most attention to the interested in the subject, following are two links to undeniable information that men who have sex with men started the epidemic in the 80’s in the U.S., and continues to be the demographic for thirty years since 1981 most afflicted with AIDS.

A TIMELINE OF AIDS

1981

On June 5, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) publish a Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), describing cases of a rare lung infection, Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP), in five young, previously healthy, gay men in Los Angeles. All the men have other unusual infections as well, indicating that their immune systems are not working; two have already died by the time the report is published. This edition of the MMWR marks the first official reporting of what will become known as the AIDS epidemic.

On June 5, the Associated Press and the Los Angeles Times report on the MMWR. On June 6, the San Francisco Chronicle covers the story. Within days, doctors from across the U.S. flood CDC with reports of similar cases.

In addition to reports of cases of PCP and other opportunistic infections among gay men, CDC also receives reports of a cluster of cases of a rare, and unusually aggressive, cancer, Kaposi’s Sarcoma, among a group of gay men in New York and California. In response, on June 8, CDC establishes a Task Force on Kaposi’s Sarcoma and Opportunistic Infections (KSOI) to identify risk factors and to develop a case definition for national surveillance.

On July 3, the New York Times reports on cases of Kaposi’s Sarcoma affecting 41 gay men in New York and California.

By year-end, there is a cumulative total of 270 reported cases of severe immune deficiency among gay men, and 121 of those individuals have died.

2011

HIV in the United States: At A Glance

Fast Facts

More than 1.1 million people in the United States are living with HIV infection, and almost 1 in 5 (18.1%) are unaware of their infection

Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM1) particularly young black/African American MSM, are most seriously affected by HIV.
 
Dude. X-Files. 🙂

I think gay marriage is a political issue, to be decided by the people. And it will be legalized (or not) through the political process - as is proper in our system of government.

I bear no ill-will to homosexuals, and many of my close friends, whom I love, are gay. And honestly, if I had the opportunity, I’d probably vote to legalize gay marriage (I already did so for civil unions, at least).

The fact is, marriage as a civil institution is a contractual bond. Yes, it has more social and religious meanings (and a variety of those, at that). But ultimately, the state’s interest in promoting marriage is furthering the happiness of each citizen. That being so, I see no reason to deny homosexuals happiness.

But, I’m still trying to sort it all out. It’s a complicated issue!
Seakelp, that is exactly what my Sister said when we discussed same sex marriage, but it is a BIG! mistake to be ‘for’ same sex marriage.

In the past people have rejected homosexuals in an effort to reject homosexuality and now in our generation people are embracing homosexuality in an effort to embrace homosexuals.

Do you see what people are doing? It’s good that you wish to embrace homosexuals and help them, but it’s wrong to encourage their distructive behaviours of homosexuality.

And as Catholic’s it is our duty to help those who are on a destructive path that leads them away from Christ and into the hands of the Devil, if you truly love those homosexuals you know Seakelp, please join me in opposing same sex marriage and the acts of homosexuality, because you are not helping anyone by encouraging that kind of behaviour you are lieing to homosexuals in order to make them feel better, homosexuals need the truth of their disordered and immoral desires of homosexuality and ways to deal with the truth in a healthy and constructive manner, not lie’s, a homosexual’s cross is heavy enough as it is wouldn’t you agree Seakelp? so why make it heavier by lieing to them? that would be cruel, you know better as a Catholic seakelp so it would be very wrong for you to intentionaly lie to them and lead them away from Christ through encouraging same sex marriage or acts of homosexuality.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
"josh987654321:
I wont force my morals onto them by forcing them not to enter a homosexual union, but I get upset when they try and force their morals onto us by trying to claim marriage.
How many Catholic churches have been prosecuted for failing to marry a divorced couple? You can get back to me when you have an example to show me. I am not being naive, I am merely observing what is currently happening in a parallel example of the difference between civil and Catholic marriage.
Catholic’s don’t live in the Church Rossum, Im not talking about the church, Im talking about the many aspects of a Catholic’s life such as their jobs etc.
You should know by now that I do not agree.
So why do you not agree that adoption agencies should make the discrimination between homosexual unions and hetrosexual unions? I think every child has a right to a mom and a dad, why do you think that they deserve less? or that anything else isn’t less? how can a mom and a dad be the same as two mom’s or two dad’s? sometimes a child may not have the opportunity to be raised by a mom and a dad but that does not make it equivilent and that Ignorance pisses me off when people try to say that it is equivilant, it is being raised crippled without a mom and a dad, and full credits to those who can be raised crippled and rise above it, but many cannot rise above their raising’s and it is wrong to intentionally cripple a child.
How does that apply to children that are up for adoption? By definition, children that are up for adoption are lacking one or both parents, or have parents who are unable to look after them. Having two same-sex parents is better than having no parents.
But having a mom and a dad is better than having same sex parents, that is a discrimination that all adoption agencies should be making, it would be foolish for an adoption agency not to make that discrimination wouldn’t you agree Rossum?

Eating out of the grabage might be better than nothing at all, but it is not equivilant to eating what we normally do. (analogy is extreme but relevant none the less)
Home-schooling.
So your fine with the nature of homosexuality being taught in detail the same as hetrosexuality is, in sex education classes in schools Rossum?
There are many points. Does every childless couple adopt? How many married sixty-year-old couples with no young children of their own have adopted?
What’s the point to marriage if it’s just the word? don’t you think they want all of the things from marriage that hetrosexual couples stand to recieve through marriage such as a family? and how naive must you be to think that homosexual couples want ‘marriage’ and don’t want to adopt or go through surrogacy? they are trying to imitate a hetrosexual union, how can you not see that Rossum?

So yes you are naive to think that they just want the word ‘marriage’ you are very naive to think that.
False. I cannot think of one gay couple that I know who have adopted children. There are heterosexual married couples I know who have no children. People are a lot more diverse in their motivations than you seem to be allowing.
Because they want to be treated equally to a hetrosexual union, therefore they can try and obtain all of the things that a hetrosexual union stands to recieve through marriage, which includes children, either adopted or through surrogacy for homosexuals, very rare would they not be aiming for that, of course they want to imitate a hetrosexual union through marriage, and what do hetrosexual unions through marriage normally do? they procreate and raise children as a family.

This is madness, because in an effort to embrace homosexuals, people are embracing homosexuality, so please continue to embrace homosexuals but please stop this madness of embracing homosexuality.

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
America is not the world, indeed.
We are agreed.
But activist gays all over the world look to the U.S. and this president to help with their agenda to legalize gay ‘marriage’ across borders.
I very much doubt that. Norway, the Netherlands and Canada, to mention just three, are all further advanced than the USA. In terms of the political treatment of homosexuality America is a follower, not a leader.
You are starting far too late. The timeline of AIDS dates back well before that. See Timeline of AIDS:

1959
  • X-ray showing infection with Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia.
    The first known case of HIV in a human occurs in a person who died in the Congo, later confirmed as having HIV infection from his preserved blood samples. The authors of the study did not sequence a full virus from his samples, writing that “attempts to amplify HIV-1 fragments of >300 base pairs (bp) were unsuccessful … However, after numerous attempts, four shorter sequences were obtained”; these represented small portions of two of the six genes of the complete HIV genome.
  • June 28, in New York City, Ardouin Antonio, a 49-year-old Jamaican-American shipping clerk dies of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, a disease closely associated with AIDS. Gordon Hennigar, who performed the postmortem examination of the man’s body, found “the first reported instance of unassociated Pneumocystis carinii disease in an adult” to be so unusual that he preserved Ardouin’s lungs for later study. The case was published in two medical journals at the time, and Hennigar has been quoted in numerous publications saying that he believes Ardouin probably had AIDS.
rossum
 
Catholic’s don’t live in the Church Rossum, Im not talking about the church, Im talking about the many aspects of a Catholic’s life such as their jobs etc.
Would you accept shops that had signs saying “Catholics not served here”? That is effectively what you are asking for. When a person is running a business they do not get a religious exemption from the relevant laws that all businesses have to follow.
So why do you not agree that adoption agencies should make the discrimination between homosexual unions and hetrosexual unions? I think every child has a right to a mom and a dad, why do you think that they deserve less?
It is less a matter of what they deserve, but a matter of what is available. There are always more children available for adoption than there are ideal nice prosperous middle-class couples willing to adopt them. I repeat my point that a nice prosperous middle-class same sex couple is better than staying in the orphanage.
sometimes a child may not have the opportunity to be raised by a mom and a dad but that does not make it equivilent and that Ignorance pisses me off when people try to say that it is equivilant, it is being raised crippled without a mom and a dad, and full credits to those who can be raised crippled and rise above it, but many cannot rise above their raising’s and it is wrong to intentionally cripple a child.
I assume that you do not propose removing children from single parents. Given that, then you are allowing “crippled” for those children. Do you have any evidence that a same sex couple is any worse for the child than a single parent?

You appear to be looking for reasons to keep children away from same sex couples, but the reasons you are advancing also apply to single parents, and to mixed sex couples who are bad parents.
Eating out of the grabage might be better than nothing at all, but it is not equivilant to eating what we normally do. (analogy is extreme but relevant none the less)
So, being raised by a single parent is like eating out of the garbage? You will forgive me if I find this argument distasteful.
So your fine with the nature of homosexuality being taught in detail the same as hetrosexuality is, in sex education classes in schools Rossum?
In principle, yes. In practice probably less detail is needed in class because only a minority will need it. The detail should be available easily for the minority who need it.
don’t you think they want all of the things from marriage that hetrosexual couples stand to recieve through marriage such as a family?
In some cases yes, and in other cases no. There are childless heterosexual couples who are childless through choice. Similarly with homosexual couples. You appear to be trying to force all marriages into a single pattern. That is an error. People are different and the marriages they form are also different.
Because they want to be treated equally to a hetrosexual union
Correct. Do you have a problem with equality in law?

rossum
 
Would you accept shops that had signs saying “Catholics not served here”? That is effectively what you are asking for. When a person is running a business they do not get a religious exemption from the relevant laws that all businesses have to follow.
I see your point.
It is less a matter of what they deserve, but a matter of what is available. There are always more children available for adoption than there are ideal nice prosperous middle-class couples willing to adopt them. I repeat my point that a nice prosperous middle-class same sex couple is better than staying in the orphanage.
Okay, I see what you mean, Im not sure the best way to do it after it is supposed to be done, but it’s good that you agree with me that it’s only right to discriminate between homosexal couples and hetrosexual couples when adopting out, because if there is an equallity there, than some orphans would be adopted out to homosexual couples while hetrosexual couples may be waiting which would be very wrong as hetrosexual couples in marriage is the ultimate environment to raise a child, as for the rest like I said Im not sure, id like the aim to be for every child to be raised with a mom and a dad, anything else should only be done if absolutly nessecary, but homosexual couples when it comes to surrogacy is definatly wrong wouldn’t you agree?
I assume that you do not propose removing children from single parents. Given that, then you are allowing “crippled” for those children. Do you have any evidence that a same sex couple is any worse for the child than a single parent?
No, I would not remove those children, but yes they are crippled without a mom and dad, but you must understand that single parenting was not intended to be such, I doubt that single parents intentionaly set it up that way for their children, however with homosexual couples, it is intentionaly set up that way, which is wrong I think.
You appear to be looking for reasons to keep children away from same sex couples, but the reasons you are advancing also apply to single parents, and to mixed sex couples who are bad parents.
Yea, you are right, I am looking for ways to keep children away from same sex couples, as those couples are percieving that their actions are not perverse, disorderd or immoral, and in doing so the children that they raise will perseve the same thing, than what kind of view will those children have on what desires are disordered, perverse or immoral desires to act on? what is a child supposed to say to themselves about the acts of homosexuality being apparently normal? it won’t add up, how are they supposed to live their lives? what kind of example will be set when it comes to acting on sexual desires?
So, being raised by a single parent is like eating out of the garbage? You will forgive me if I find this argument distasteful.
I apologise, I said that the analogy was extreme, it was all I could think of, I don’t at all think that being raised by a single parent is like eating out of the garbage and I completely understand your distaste, I only meant, as in it’s not as good as a mom and a dad.
In principle, yes. In practice probably less detail is needed in class because only a minority will need it. The detail should be available easily for the minority who need it.
I disagree, what detail do you think they need? how would you determine what kind of perverse acts of homosexuality would be included? we all know how it is supposed to be done as hetrosexuality dictates, however the act of homosexuality is a miss use, how can you teach that?
In some cases yes, and in other cases no. There are childless heterosexual couples who are childless through choice. Similarly with homosexual couples. You appear to be trying to force all marriages into a single pattern. That is an error. People are different and the marriages they form are also different.
I agree, but the idea of marriage is family, majority of it is family based in raising children, therefore homosexual couples through marriage are also going to try and be family based in raising children, and what happens when they can no longer mimic a hetrosexual marriage through children? I believe they will either have to adopt or go through surrogacy, which will be intentionaly crippling a child through their own desire to be viewed as a family after they have marriage.
Correct. Do you have a problem with equality in law?
I do have a problem with equality when they try to equate things that are not equal, cetain aspects as you have said are equal, but in regards to marriage and family they are not equal.

Like I said, it’s a good thing to embrace homosexuals, but we shouldn’t be embracing homosexuality, what part of the acts of homosexuality do you think should be embraced and viewed as natural or normal Rossum?

Do you think they can miss use their body like that and be healthy? I am no doctor but I know that there would definatly be some unhealthy consequences to miss using their bodies like that, so when I said earlier ‘unhealthy’ it is actually unhealthy, can you find me some information Rossum that suggests that the acts of homosexuality is healthy? you said before that hetrosexuality can be unhealthy too, in STD’s/STI’s but this is not in all cases, there are many cases of hetrosexuality that are healthy, can you say the same for homosexuality?

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Even if he meant that, he would be wrong. The majority of AIDS cases in the world are in Africa, and the great majority of African cases are due to heterosexual transmission.

America is not the world.

rossum
Maybe so, and maybe not so, but nevertheless, I was referring to the AIDS epidemic in America. You certainly are defensive about anything related to homosexuality. All the defense in the world will not change God’s word on the matter-- those who are given to the practice of homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

9Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

I did not make it up. If you do not have faith to see and understand the truth of God’s Word, then pray that the Father will give you that gift. It is free for the asking and it has power to overcome every difficulty known to mankind.
 
We are agreed.

I very much doubt that. Norway, the Netherlands and Canada, to mention just three, are all further advanced than the USA. In terms of the political treatment of homosexuality America is a follower, not a leader.
The countries you mentioned may be ahead in having legalized marriage, but it is the U.S. by virtue of its size, power, and political influence in the world that holds much interest to gay advocates in developed and developing countries, who wish to internationalize the most liberal laws providing all possible gay “rights”. Else, why do gay advocates outside the U.S., as an example, keep close tabs of U.S. legislation like the Windsor v U.S. case ?
You are starting far too late. The timeline of AIDS dates back well before that. See Timeline of AIDS:
  • X-ray showing infection with Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia.
    The first known case of HIV in a human occurs in a person who died in the Congo, later confirmed as having HIV infection from his preserved blood samples. The authors of the study did not sequence a full virus from his samples, writing that “attempts to amplify HIV-1 fragments of >300 base pairs (bp) were unsuccessful … However, after numerous attempts, four shorter sequences were obtained”; these represented small portions of two of the six genes of the complete HIV genome.
  • June 28, in New York City, Ardouin Antonio, a 49-year-old Jamaican-American shipping clerk dies of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, a disease closely associated withAIDS. Gordon Hennigar, who performed the postmortem examination of the man’s body, found “the first reported instance of unassociated Pneumocystis carinii disease in an adult” to be so unusual that he preserved Ardouin’s lungs for later study. The case was published in two medical journals at the time, and Hennigar has been quoted in numerous publications saying that he believes Ardouin probably had AIDS.
The line of discussion was not about the first incidence of AIDS / HIV in the world or in the U.S. It was about the sexual behavior of a segment of the population that gave rise to the U.S. epidemic. Nice shift of focus there on your part.
 
Dude. X-Files. 🙂

I think gay marriage is a political issue, to be decided by the people. And it will be legalized (or not) through the political process - as is proper in our system of government.

I bear no ill-will to homosexuals, and many of my close friends, whom I love, are gay. And honestly, if I had the opportunity, I’d probably vote to legalize gay marriage (I already did so for civil unions, at least).

The fact is, marriage as a civil institution is a contractual bond. Yes, it has more social and religious meanings (and a variety of those, at that). But ultimately, the state’s interest in promoting marriage is furthering the happiness of each citizen. That being so, I see no reason to deny homosexuals happiness.

But, I’m still trying to sort it all out. It’s a complicated issue!
It is actually pretty simple. Just listen to what the Church says and do that.

And are you sure it is going to be decided by the people? That’s the whole point of the USSC Prop 8 case. It WAS decided by the people, and a judge said “it shouldn’t be decided by the people.”
 
The line of discussion was not about the first incidence of AIDS / HIV in the world or in the U.S. It was about the sexual behavior of a segment of the population that gave rise to the U.S. epidemic. Nice shift of focus there on your part.
This is sort of a pointless observation. Anal sex has more risk of transmitting HIV than vaginal sex, however, for example, oral sex especially on a woman has less risk of transmission of many STDs than either of the others.

In short, this shows people who insist on having multiple partners must protect themselves. It doesn’t mean people should quit having vaginal sex just because risks are lower for oral. 🤷
 
If in fact the nation decides that sodomy is the equivalent of conjugal relations between man and wife, it will not be an advance in civil rights or in any other way. It will signal a continuing decline in the culture, ending in ultimate collapse. The current general attitudes on the subject seem to take the position of Mad Magazine’s Alfred E. Neuman: “What, me worry?”
 
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