Obama vs Romney, who are you voting for and why?

[Lapey]

Sounds to me like you are inferring that I and maybe a few others here obstinately refuse
to examine our and form our conscience in line with the Church. Wrong judgment sir.

I will just post a bit of what the Bishops have to say,

A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism,
if the voter’s intent is to support that position.In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil.
At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity. Peace, Carlan
USCCB

We all to a certain extent obstinately refuse to examine our own consciences, so to say otherwise is a wrong judgment.

Some keep quoting things that support the choice to vote for a pro abortion candidate (not to mention the other non-negotiables), but the whole point is, that there is more than this to the statements of the Church’s leaders. Formal cooperation is most definitely bad, but even if we do not vote for these evil reasons, we cooperate, although it may be informal and non material; it is cooperation. That is why we are called to employ a life time of forming our consciences to match the teachings of the Church.

The other issues as you put it do not equal that of abortion, same sex union, etc. The plight of the poor does not equal the plight of the unborn. With that statement made, Romney does not promise inattentiveness to the plight of the poor, he intends to free up the job market and put people where they belong, at work so they can in dignity provide for themselves. This is in line with Catholic social teachings.

 

[rlg94086]

Nope. But I won’t give Mitt a pass simply because Obama is the alternative. I will not be played for a fool.

Well, if you are voting for Obama…

 

[johnnyjones]

Troll alert!

I hear that.

 

[Lapey]

I never said anything about Obama’s evolution. Either you are confusing me with someone else here or you are putting words into my mouth.

I think the record is clear on both Obama and Romney: they are both pro-murder (albeit to varying degrees).

I will not vote for Romney simply because less babies will be murdered under his presidency than under Obama’s. I like to sleep well at night.

I’ll give you that; I apologize for lumping you with the media.

I also agree that Romney’s statements about abortion in the cases of rape and incest are unacceptable, but you have to say that his views are a big step in the right direction.

I won’t give you the last statement though, I will most definitely vote for whichever candidate that promises to kill fewer unborn children. I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Very good, and may I suggest to you , Matthew:25-45 a bit long to post here but a good one to ponder concerning your vote. Peace, Carlan

Oh, yes, no need to remind me. I’ve heard that verse at mass and in my bible studies. I absolutely take that chapter to heart.

I don’t really want to list all the organizations I volunteer for and contribute to because that would be bragging.

If you check Gov Romney’s charitable contribution and charitable works record, you’ll see he absolutely takes that chapter to heart as well.

Gov Romney not only donates money generously, he also donates his time generously.

Romney/Ryan are my idea of a great team to lead our country.

 

[Lapey]

only they and not aaron or moses.

God’s decree not man’s. Men are not the judges.

Aaron and Moses did their duty, Eziekiel 3:17-21

17 "Son of man, I have appointed you a sentinel for the house of Israel.j When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.

18 If I say to the wicked, You shall surely die—and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade the wicked from their evil conduct in order to save their lives—then they shall die for their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their blood.

19If, however, you warn the wicked and they still do not turn from their wickedness and evil conduct, they shall die for their sin, but you shall save your life.

20But if the just turn away from their right conduct and do evil when I place a stumbling block before them, then they shall die. Even if you warned them about their sin, they shall still die, and the just deeds that they performed will not be remembered on their behalf. I will, however, hold you responsible for their blood.

21 If, on the other hand, you warn the just to avoid sin, and they do not sin, they will surely live because of the warning, and you in turn shall save your own life."

I never said man has a right to judge, however, scripture tells us God has demanded us to share the truth. If I choose not to share, I too shall die.

 

[rlg94086]

Oh, yes, no need to remind me. I’ve heard that verse at mass and in my bible studies. I absolutely take that chapter to heart.

I don’t really want to list all the organizations I volunteer for and contribute to because that would be bragging.

If you check Gov Romney’s charitable contribution and charitable works record, you’ll see he absolutely takes that chapter to heart as well.

Gov Romney not only donates money generously, he also donates his time generously.

Romney/Ryan are my idea of a great team to lead our country.

Yep. Compared to Obama/Biden, it’s a no-brainer.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I offered up an end to poverty in America as a “proportionate reason,” but it was shot down. Perhaps, a cure to cancer…

CMatt25, would you consider a cure for cancer as a fair trade-off for the right to kill innocent humans? Is that a good proportionate reason? Al? Are you still sticking with the "well, Romney won’t do anything different than the proven pro-abortion president?

Don’t you understand? There is no trade-off, no embellishment or even basic structure that trumps the foundation of the economy, of the society, and of the government: people. When you destroy people, you destroy the society. And when you destroy future adults, you destroy the future society at the base.

There can be no poor people, no rich people, no unjust people, no oppressed people no healthy people, no people with cancer, no people with genetic defects IF THERE ARE NO PEOPLE.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yep. Compared to Obama/Biden, it’s a no-brainer.

The poor have really suffered under this administration. Have you seen the increased numbers going on foodstamps and other welfare payments because they can’t find jobs? It’s a terrible indignity. Our national debt is so high partly due to the decrease in taxes collected.

Jobs will increase our tax revenue and help our country get back some financial stability

 

[rlg94086]

Don’t you understand? There is no trade-off, no embellishment or even basic structure that trumps the foundation of the economy, of the society, and of the government: people. When you destroy people, you destroy the society. And when you destroy future adults, you destroy the future society at the base.

There can be no poor people, no rich people, no unjust people, no oppressed people no healthy people, no people with cancer, no people with genetic defects IF THERE ARE NO PEOPLE.

Absolutely. That is why bishops have stated that they can’t see a proportionate reason to vote pro-choice. Some CAF posters have though, but it takes some mental gymnastics to get there…

 

[Lapey]

Don’t you understand? There is no trade-off, no embellishment or even basic structure that trumps the foundation of the economy, of the society, and of the government: people. When you destroy people, you destroy the society. And when you destroy future adults, you destroy the future society at the base.

There can be no poor people, no rich people, no unjust people, no oppressed people no healthy people, no people with cancer, no people with genetic defects IF THERE ARE NO PEOPLE.

I agree with you 100% here. Can you imagine what our economy would be if the millions of children who have been killed in abortion would have been born and would be adults, or on their way to being adults??? Would the person whom God sent to cure cancer already discover that cure? We’ll never know because he or she was an unplanned and un wanted pregnancy…shame.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Aaron and Moses did their duty, Eziekiel 3:17-21

Deacon-
Our we not to admonish our brother if he sins?
Matthew 18:15-17
h “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16* i If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17j If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Luke 17:3
3Be on your guard!* If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

 

[He_Man]

1. The abortion mills as you call them, have been running legally regardless of election outcomes.
2. Abortion is not the SINGLE issue of faith in the this election. If some Catholics wish to focus on abortion to the exclusion of all else, that is their prerogative. Some others, like me, may choose to put BOTH candidates under the faith microscope and take that into account when making a decision.

Either way, the “mills” run. As a Catholic, I am obliged (and happy to) do all in my power to oppose abortion. If I disagree that legal remedies can do much, if anything, to contain the problem, that is my personal stance and I will not force it on anyone else with name-calling or accusations.

Regardless of who wins, there will be poor and downtrodden. However, after four years of the man you endorse, they are much worse off.

Why the inconsistent logic?

 

[SwizzleStick]

Does this… Cardinal Burke… represent THE official position of the Church in this regard?

He left St Louis after protecting as many ‘naughty’ priests as he could… he alienated one of the biggest and best “old school” Catholic communities…

Not to derail the thread, but I cannot let the above go unchallenged. Cardinal Burke is a good and holy man. He upholds the teachings of Holy Mother Church and tried to bring the members of that Catholic community back to the fold. They chose otherwise.

Now, back to the thread.

 

[He_Man]

Maybe you should ask why do I not support Romney…Seriously, I have supported Obama in the past (because I think he really wants to do right by ordinary people), but in 2008 I was wavering on him versus McCain from a Catholic perspective. I felt McCain had the moral high ground on abortion, but he seemed to be overwhelmed by the financial crisis which needed steady hands urgently (remember the suspended campaign). This election however, I’m not even having a niggle of a doubt regarding the moral aspect of the equation. Much as I oppose abortion, it does not constitute the sum total of moral evaluations that I think are pertinent in this case.

He “wants” to do right? So what? I want to dunk a basketball, but can;t any more.

He has failed, regardless of what you believe he wants. That;s the dilemma. This isn;t 2008. We are not dealing with promises and hope and theories. We have a four year track record of him NOT doing right by the poor. And you think he will get it right this time? Or somehow, the same policies will have different results.

I think Hoover and Carter both wanted to do right by people, but they still failed at ACTUALLY doing right by people.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Oh, yes, no need to remind me. I’ve heard that verse at mass and in my bible studies. I absolutely take that chapter to heart.

Yes, you do.

I don’t really want to list all the organizations I volunteer for and contribute to because that would be bragging.

No, it wouldn’t. Don’t have to hide your light under a basket!

If you check Gov Romney’s charitable contribution and charitable works record, you’ll see he absolutely takes that chapter to heart as well.

Is he a Bible believer? Not sure of that myself.

Romney/Ryan are my idea of a great team to lead our country.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The “Cash for Clunkers” program has hurt the poor as well. There are fewer used cars now and they are so much more expensive as the inventory has decreased.

This program has hurt the environment as well. All these perfectly good cars were destroyed and put into landfills. Most of the reusable parts for the resale market were destroyed.

Another program, well-intentioned but with disastrous results. An experienced person would have fore-seen this.

 

[He_Man]

Do Catholics who plan on voting for Obama think it would be good when Catholic organizations and Catholic proferssionals are drummed out of the health care sector for refusing to comply with birth control mandates?

Is this in your mind a separation of Church and State issue?

Do you believe Churches should be confined to not operating in the public sphere if they oppose the government’s morality? No Catholic healthcare or adoption agencies.

They don’t care.

 

[Lapey]

Deacon-
Our we not to admonish our brother if he sins?
Matthew 18:15-17
h “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16* i If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17j If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Luke 17:3
3Be on your guard!* If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Yes, most definitely!

 

[estesbob]

The “Cash for Clunkers” program has hurt the poor as well. There are fewer used cars now and they are so much more expensive as the inventory has decreased.

This program has hurt the environment as well. All these perfectly good cars were destroyed and put into landfills. Most of the reusable parts for the resale market were destroyed.

Another program, well-intentioned but with disastrous results. An experienced person would have fore-seen this.

The only good thing about the cash for clunkers program is it took tens of thousands of obama/ biden bumper stickers off the nation’s highways.