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oldcelt
Guest
Ain’t that the truth.
Obama won Catholic vote, regular churchgoers chose Romney [CC]
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
We were discussing Fr. Serpa’s response to the question, 'Is it wrong for a Catholic to vote for Obama?’
You state that you believe it to be a ‘typo.’
Fr. Serpa responded to another post entitled, ’ Are half the Catholic voters bound for hell?’
His response indicated it was a similar question, and gave the same answer that we are discussing.
You point out to me that the statement makes no grammatical sense, and highlighted parts in red (as shown below).
We lose grammatical sense if we leave out the word ‘whether’. ‘Whether’ indicates there are two, or more, qualifiers. The first qualifier is the first part highlighted in red, ‘their consciences are well informed,’ The second qualifier is the second part you highlighted in red, ‘through not fault of their own they are not.’ Whether their consciences are well informed OR through not fault of their own they are not, they do not sin by acting on them.
- We have an obligation to inform our consciences regarding moral choices we make in life.
- If we deliberately disobey the moral teaching of the Church, we can sin mortally.
- BUT if people sincerely follow their consciences, whether their consciences are well informed or through not fault of their own they are not, they do not sin by acting on them.
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seekerz
Guest
My comment was not about Obama. That said, what is wrong with his statement? Maybe he’s just smart enough to champion the people whom some would rather exclude and ignore. Good for him.
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Carlan
Guest
Dear Prodigal Son, Thank you so much for your truly Christian post, and for not resorting to the judging of others, as many are doing in this political thread… Peace, Carlan
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SeekingHisMercy
Guest
I would answer simply by directing you to the Catechism and asking you to review what the visible Church is. As Catholics, there are things we must believe and responsibilities we have. That “institutional” Church you respect my need for reliance on is the one that Jesus Christ Himself founded and yes, you are correct that I need to rely on it. Jesus only founded one Church. I believe He’s the Saviour. If I believe that, I have no other logical, reasonable choice that to assent to His Church. That’s the hope I have.We are the Church (the mystical body of Christ), there is no other. I respect your need to rely on the authority for the institutional Church for your own faith formation. Remember, when 2 or more are gathered in his name, we have Church (Matt).
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Tampa_Dave
Guest
I sympathize with your medical situation and sincerely hope you get a proper diagnosis, suitable care (sounds like Medicaid is appropriate), and Social Security Disability Insurance (if applicable). I’m unsure of your reference to “grant” money that you use for groceries. I can only assume you are using college grants to pay for your living expenses and tuition, though I was unaware one could receive grants for part-time attendance. You can save considerable money by attending a local community college and staying at home with your parents. Community colleges usually have work-study programs that would allow you to receive direct assistance while attending classes (tutoring, working in an administrative capacity, etc.). Perhaps you can receive vocational training via the community college route or other trade school that is consistent with your health condition, as opposed to a traditional degree one might receive at a four-year institution.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Cheer up! God has seen your plight and that of many others like you and His Kingdom is advancing rapidly. *Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the Lord. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord * (Ps 31:24; 27:14)
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lonelypetunia
Guest
Very Augustinian…Cultural change = conversion of hearts and minds.
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Carlan
Guest
More of the posters in the political forums should ponder the quote from Prodigal Son1,
“If you can’t force people to help the poor through taxation , how can we force people to be pro-life…ect through legislation?”
Thanks Seekerz for posting that Quote!
Peace to all, Carlan
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BroomWagon
Guest
By defunding the Federal Government Shoving Abortion on People, That’s how! Now why don’t you quote me? ProdigalSon1 and many people turn a total blind eye to the truth and to the news and use this as some sort of moral perch to justify themselves with. Sickening!
By the Federal Government not funding the Largest Abortion provider in the USA,** that’s how. By defunding it by the State and by the rights of states, that’s how.**
By denying the truth and spreading misconceptions, one really works for the Pro Death Agenda, "that’s how they do it!"
Pass the buck off if you must but people are basically supporting abortion on demand and really insult people who actually have some gall doing something about it. The Federal Government and the Democrats do all to force abortion on people, their fat cat friends Planned Parenthood are a big revenue maker forcing abortions on people. Prodigal Son abandons addressing these facts totally with some pompous self-centered ideology to avoid responsibility and obviously, it is beneficial to the abortion industry.
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BroomWagon
Guest
I’ll ponder that quote to the trash can where it belongs!
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slate
Guest
Why respond so abrasively? Isn’t it enough to say you disagree? Is it really so unfathomable that some aspects of morality should not be forced upon an individual by law? I have no doubt you feel strongly about abortion, but so do many people with varying views. Even the Republican party could not get away from partial abortions due to mainstream national thought. Maybe people need to come to their own conclusions about abortion independent of government before any significant change is made.
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Carlan
Guest
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BroomWagon
Guest
Excuse me, you still don’t get it, the Federal Government funds and forces abortions on people. Don’t give me this pie in the sky, if you give someone a gun who kills someone, you may well be responsible partially for a murder if they kill someone. If I buy alcohol for teens which I have been asked to do before, they get in a car wreck and killed, I have responsibility.
ProdigalSon1 and you too are espousing a sick philosophy that helps fill the coffers of abortionist and so is pro-abortion.
Don’t give me this “I have no doubt you feel strongly about abortion”, it’s a simple matter that progress has been made against funding it, the likes of Obama and the Democrats fight tooth and nail against this.
ProdigalSon1 will not even address in the slightest about Federal Government funding abortion so it is the same old broken record, convincing people. Hey, just take federal funding out of it, those who say nothing has been done, a grotesque ignominious lie and so on, really aid in the abortion industry the same way.
Yes, ignorance is not cordial as well. Willful ignorance likewise is abrasive.
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BroomWagon
Guest
Is this invincible ignorance? This is sickening too.
The government funds it, those who dismiss a vote for Romney in fact support government funding of abortion and in turn abortion itself.
Yeah, if it is independent of government, why are some people dissing prolife votes when this means an end to organizations like Planned Parenthood with 83% of their clinics in poor neighborhoods.
No, you are okay with the government funding it.
That doesn’t sound like being “independent of government”, see this is the thing, these views run with this ignorance.
If you believe being INDEPENDENT OF GOVERNMENT, then why in the world are you for a Government that fights to force it on the people of states.
This is beyond contempt.
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BroomWagon
Guest
Those who preached this see saw against Romney votes, really in fact, supported Government funding of abortion, if you want the government to be out of abortion and independent of it, why would you be preaching against votes for a Candidate that would defund planned parenthood.
So in essence, those making this ridiculous argument are really pro-abortion and enabled abortion.
So in essence, those making this ridiculous argument are really pro-abortion and enabled abortion.
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BroomWagon
Guest
Okay, take your hundred dollars to that revenue maker, the biggest abortion provider of the United States, Planned Parenthood, but don;'t make me or my tax dolars support it.
If you want abortion to be independent of government, then why would one warrant off votes to someone who would defund the biggest abortion provider in the United States Planned Parenthood subsidized by the USA? I have a right not to be a part of this.
You say “independent of government” but this is a total falsehood to use a nice nonabrasive word.
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di_in_cville
Guest
It seems to me that many social justice Catholics rationalized their vote for Obama in the following way: neither Romney nor Obama would change anything about abortion, so those positions canceled each other out. (But, I would argue that Obama is promoting it much more with taxpayer dollars and support of Planned Parenthood, but that’s part of my analysis and not the Catholic Obama voters).
So in their minds, that boils the distinction down to the issue of care for the poor, and this is where I think the social justice Catholics argue from a flawed premise. They happily vote for Obama because of the perception that large government programs are next to Godliness. Somehow the larger the nanny state, the more hands working on behalf of Christ. Never mind that the face of government is this huge, loveless, virulently secular entity. Never mind that many of our tax dollars are used to fund things we as Christians oppose. Never mind that the very people we are purporting to help (but in my opinion we are too lazy to get our own hands dirty doing it, which is why we’d rather throw money at it so we can forget about it) become permanently trapped generation after generation in the same cycle of learned helplessness and dependency. Never mind that the welfare state actually facilitates the disintegration of the 2 parent family. Never mind that funneling that much money to a central authority invites power corruption and waste. Never mind that the US government is $16 trillion in debt and climbing, and will collapse under it’s own weight if we continue as we have.
Does Greece ring a bell? Tell me whether Greece given EVERYTHING it had promised it’s citizens including the poor can in anyway serve as Christ’s hands on earth now? I think it’s quite the opposite actually, and extremely insidious really, because they cannot even honor their government pensions, which their citizen employees paid into their entire lives and now have nothing, much less help the needy who could never pay. Such nanny states actually weaken their citizens to such an extent that they become unable to care for themselves, and when the inevitable natural disaster, economic collapse or belt tightening comes, the citizens are much like helpless children.
So no, I don’t think the socialistic state is next to Godliness. And I would venture to say that we pro-life and social justice Catholics BOTH look to our government to do too much of the work we ourselves need to be doing. We pro-life Catholics want the government to legislate morality (and yes I agree “life” is pure human rights, too, but we’re presently on the losing end if this), and the social justice Catholics want the government to tax everyone and deal with the poor themselves, while we go on our merry lives with the poor and suffering invisible to us. I think this devastating loss might actually be God’s way of saying WE must be Christ’s hands in a very present, real way. We need to be actually preaching and teaching the Good News, and teaching and reaching out to others about the sanctity of life and holiness of marriage. I’m afraid many of our bishops and priests have become timid and do not want to actually say anything controversial or that might offend anyone, and that is leading many of us astray. I also believe that we need to be reaching out to the poor in real, personal, and authentic ways, and show them how to genuinely care for themselves AND walk with Christ. That is something our government WILL NEVER do.
And that brings me to my last point, and this is where I think the social justice Catholics pretty much sold out the entire Church - a vote for Obama allowed him to move forward with the HHS mandate, which if we lose is likely to mean the closing of many of our schools, churches with outreach ministries, charities, hospitals, etc. If the Church determines that they will not violate their conscience in order to comply, we will lose this very visible work of Christ on earth. And hence, reaching out to the community in real, personal ways through our churches will be impossible. We will be moved outside the town square, and the secularists will take our place. So we true believers from both sides should have not have been willing to give Obama a pass for this very issue.
So, if you voted for Obama, no I don’t think voting your conscience really served God’s purposes. But we won’t know for sure will we, until judgement day. But, we might get an inkling as we see what kind of fruit putting Obama back in for another four years yields.
So in their minds, that boils the distinction down to the issue of care for the poor, and this is where I think the social justice Catholics argue from a flawed premise. They happily vote for Obama because of the perception that large government programs are next to Godliness. Somehow the larger the nanny state, the more hands working on behalf of Christ. Never mind that the face of government is this huge, loveless, virulently secular entity. Never mind that many of our tax dollars are used to fund things we as Christians oppose. Never mind that the very people we are purporting to help (but in my opinion we are too lazy to get our own hands dirty doing it, which is why we’d rather throw money at it so we can forget about it) become permanently trapped generation after generation in the same cycle of learned helplessness and dependency. Never mind that the welfare state actually facilitates the disintegration of the 2 parent family. Never mind that funneling that much money to a central authority invites power corruption and waste. Never mind that the US government is $16 trillion in debt and climbing, and will collapse under it’s own weight if we continue as we have.
Does Greece ring a bell? Tell me whether Greece given EVERYTHING it had promised it’s citizens including the poor can in anyway serve as Christ’s hands on earth now? I think it’s quite the opposite actually, and extremely insidious really, because they cannot even honor their government pensions, which their citizen employees paid into their entire lives and now have nothing, much less help the needy who could never pay. Such nanny states actually weaken their citizens to such an extent that they become unable to care for themselves, and when the inevitable natural disaster, economic collapse or belt tightening comes, the citizens are much like helpless children.
So no, I don’t think the socialistic state is next to Godliness. And I would venture to say that we pro-life and social justice Catholics BOTH look to our government to do too much of the work we ourselves need to be doing. We pro-life Catholics want the government to legislate morality (and yes I agree “life” is pure human rights, too, but we’re presently on the losing end if this), and the social justice Catholics want the government to tax everyone and deal with the poor themselves, while we go on our merry lives with the poor and suffering invisible to us. I think this devastating loss might actually be God’s way of saying WE must be Christ’s hands in a very present, real way. We need to be actually preaching and teaching the Good News, and teaching and reaching out to others about the sanctity of life and holiness of marriage. I’m afraid many of our bishops and priests have become timid and do not want to actually say anything controversial or that might offend anyone, and that is leading many of us astray. I also believe that we need to be reaching out to the poor in real, personal, and authentic ways, and show them how to genuinely care for themselves AND walk with Christ. That is something our government WILL NEVER do.
And that brings me to my last point, and this is where I think the social justice Catholics pretty much sold out the entire Church - a vote for Obama allowed him to move forward with the HHS mandate, which if we lose is likely to mean the closing of many of our schools, churches with outreach ministries, charities, hospitals, etc. If the Church determines that they will not violate their conscience in order to comply, we will lose this very visible work of Christ on earth. And hence, reaching out to the community in real, personal ways through our churches will be impossible. We will be moved outside the town square, and the secularists will take our place. So we true believers from both sides should have not have been willing to give Obama a pass for this very issue.
So, if you voted for Obama, no I don’t think voting your conscience really served God’s purposes. But we won’t know for sure will we, until judgement day. But, we might get an inkling as we see what kind of fruit putting Obama back in for another four years yields.
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dandingo
Guest
I’m in nearly the same situation you are with regards to health. I’m 31 and have been sick since I was 22. No doctor has been able to find a diagnosis for me so obviously, no cure. They had to remove my colon when I was 24 due to an extreme case of Ulcerative Colitis.
Honestly, I’m not sure if I’m able to go on disability, as I’ve refused to. Even at the peak of my illness, when I could barely get out of bed, I absolutely refused to go on disability. My family and a chosen few friends have been a tremendous help. Now, I understand that not everyone has supportive family or friends but I have absolutely no desire to depend on the government unless it was my last and final resort and all other options have been exhausted. Please understand this isn’t a stab at you in any way. I’m just pointing out I have been fortunate enough to have family help me through this, even though they’ve struggled with finances immensely.
I recently got married and live as normal a life as I can but am required to sleep a minimum of 10 hours and am unable to work full time. I’ve started a photography business in order to supplement our income and this way I’m able to contribute something.
All of your speculation about what would’ve happened if Romney was president is exactly that - speculation. No one’s saying that ALL those on gov’t assistance are lazy. I can guarantee that a good amount are, though. I can guarantee that there is nowhere near 47,000,000 people that require food stamps. Not even close. Not only that, but he was going to cut taxes for everyone, not just the rich. Crime rates would rise how? Because the crime rates in Obama’s home town, Chicago, are low? They’re the highest in the country precisely because of his policies. Gun control only hurts the law-abiding citizen. Criminals will still find guns. It also sounds like you’re justifying your vote for Obama and his fervent support of abortion by saying that they would rise under Obama. There is absolutely no evidence to support that! You also say ‘in this democratic nation’, which is false. We are not a democratic nation. We are a Republic and, yes, there is a huge difference.
I’ll definitely be praying for you. I genuinely mean that, too. I can empathize with suffering on a completely different level now that I have been through so much. But, to be honest, I wouldn’t take any of it back. I don’t know where I’d be if this hadn’t happened to me. It’s made me the man I am today and I thank God for that.
God bless!
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slate
Guest
No woman is forced to have an abortion. Having an abortion is a choice (where applicable), it is not done against the mother’s will.
Ultimately, unless under extreme duress, people are responsible for their own actions. I do not blame gun companies for atrocities committed with guns. I do not blame liquor stores for drunk driving.
Yes, this is the Obama administration’s prerogative as a pro-choice organization. Did you expect something different?
I assume you mean the fungible money provided to PP, even though it’s not meant to be fungible. As I see it, the root problem isn’t the money / availability of an abortion but rather the inability of individuals to view the abortion process as wrong.
Willful ignorance is better known as stupidity, and stupidity is abrasive. Who do you think is willfully ignorant? Or, maybe you mean to say someone has an opinion that is different than your own.
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