Obama won Catholic vote, regular churchgoers chose Romney [CC]

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*Originally Posted by Fr. Vincent Serpa
All people have an obligation to inform their consciences regarding the moral choices they make in life. For Catholics to deliberately refuse to inform their consciences with the teachings of the Church or if they deliberately disobey the moral teaching of the Church, they can sin mortally if the choice is a serious one. But if people sincerely follow their consciences, whether their consciences are well informed or through not fault of their own they are not, they do not sin by acting on them. *

I’ve seen this quoted several times by people who voted for Obama and/or talk against Romney, but they only mention the second part, blue. I wonder why that is? Why do we look past the red to get to the blue?
 
My common sense tells me that not all wrongs can be controlled through legislation and some should be left to the conscience of those who commit.
Well then why not legalize everything that some feel is okay then. Prostitution, euthanasia, human & animal relations, bigamy, human sacrifice, etc can all be legalized and the conscience of the person involved can be the judge as to whether it is right for them or not.

Your statement even goes as far as saying that murder should not be legal because people still commit murder even though it is illegal. Societies make laws because of God’s law, natural law. Life is first and foremost a God given right by His law. Until we as a people of this planet earth realize life exists inside the womb this legalized murder will continue, in the name of relative truth.
 
Listening to the O’Reilly Factor last night it said that 70% of latinos voted for Obama and since most latinos are Catholics has me really upset at Catholics who voted for Obama. As my signature line used to say, no sincere (informed) Catholic can ever vote for Obama. If I was a Priest in a Latino parish, I might be tempted to say that those who voted for Obama to not bother coming up to communion and of course if that were to happen then I would probably have my faculties removed before Communion!
 
Noted.

Your source is mistaken.

The source claims:

But as can be clearly seen by a brief search of the legislation text for the quotes, the source is wrong.

Here is the text of the bill so you can check for yourself.
ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet90/sbgroups/sb/900SB0230LV.html
hmm… the bill you cite is from the 90th General Assembly, which was in session 1997-1998. The Washington Post fact check article concerned the years 2001-2003.

I don’t know what to make of the issue, because I don’t feel I have accurate information. I think Obama was in the state legislature during the 90th General Assembly, however I am unsure how he voted on SB 230 or his rationale.

As for the WaPo article, I think we would need to look at the text of the legislation from the years it discusses.
 
This statistic is hardly surprising. The less informed the Catholic conscience, the more one is living in mortal sin, the easier it was to vote for a president who too is neck deep in mortal sin.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr. Vincent Serpa
All people have an obligation to inform their consciences regarding the moral choices they make in life. For Catholics to deliberately refuse to inform their consciences with the teachings of the Church or if they deliberately disobey the moral teaching of the Church, they can sin mortally if the choice is a serious one
. But if people sincerely follow their consciences, whether their consciences are well informed or through not fault of their own they are not, they do not sin by acting on them.

I’ve seen this quoted several times by people who voted for Obama and/or talk against Romney, but they only mention the second part, blue. I wonder why that is? Why do we look past the red to get to the blue?
Same idea we spoke about yesterday. When you leave a hole to be punched., the hole punchers will punch a hole. This is what many of us have witnessed here, be it ignorance, intent, I have no idea.

I’ve spoke to many young adults who are Catholic and many well educated at Catholic Schools. They became concerned with there own world, their own pressing issue of medical coverage.

The Rep, party dropped the ball in this area. and relegated them to the “who cares” catagory. Not very Catholic either btw.
 
As for the Catholic vote, an exit poll showing a 48% and 50% split in the presidential vote is essentially a tie. Exit polls aren’t precise and can be wildly off. They are a quick means to try to analyze how people voted, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in them. Even more carefully conducted polls can vary sharply with one another, so it is good to weigh a large number of polls rather than relying upon just one.

A good distinction, however, is on those who attend Mass weekly and those who do not. The CNN exit poll shows a wide disparity in the presidential vote according to those who attend weekly and those who do not. The size of the difference, I think, lends credibility to the claim that frequency of Mass attendance is an important division in “the Catholic vote.”
 
Fr. Vincent Serpa:
But if people sincerely follow their consciences, whether their consciences are well informed or through not fault of their own they are not, they do not sin by acting on them.
:confused:

My conscience tells me what is right and wrong.
My conscience tells me that killing the unborn is wrong.
My conscience tells me that to be complicit in the killing of the unborn is wrong.

Yet, I am not culpable if I cast my vote in favour of a particular individual and in possession of full knowledge that the individual has control of the machinery or leads a policy which implements the killing of the unborn? Seriously :confused:
Fr. Serpa said we do not sin if we vote according to our conscience. In the scenario you paint, someone would be voting contrary to their conscience.
 
I think some people are misunderstading what Fr Serpa meant by conscience. I doubt Fr Serpa meant that it would be acceptable to vote for a pro abortion candidate if your conscience thinks it is okay separated from the teachings from the Church

Fr Brian Bransfield said
What does conscience look like? It is that part of me that is bigger than me. Many issues volley for attention: immigration; affordable education; war; neighborhood violence; health care; abortion; the hungry and homeless; the environment; human embryonic stem cell research; the dignity of marriage between one man and one woman as the most commonly recognized institution in history; economic inequality; gas prices; and the beat goes on.

The common misunderstanding is that conscience amounts to “what I think” on an issue. Conscience is not just “what I think,” but it is me “thinking about what is just” and true. It is not a partial appraisal based on the words of a preacher, politician or passions. The inner moral sense is not built on a sum total of what I think, but is a manifestation linked with truth itself regardless of my preferences.

Conscience does not allow a citizen to forget he is first a person. It tells me I am a person, and, as such, I must look at a quandary according to a certain order: How does this act here and now, in and of itself, fit with being human, and not simply lower prices? Conscience insists that human dilemmas are moral concerns long before they are political points of view. Conscience tells me that to be free I must admit the truth that some acts are inescapably evil and no manner of circumstances or intentions can make them somehow good. Conscience bursts all other bubbles: It tells me the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, based not on the truth of circumstances or best intentions, but first and foremost on the truth of things in themselves.

Conscience must be formed, and, as such, it looks in three directions at once: It looks at me, looks at the moral dilemma at hand, and it sees the truth of both without favor. So often the voter makes appeal to only to the first two categories, me and the dilemma. Mere opinion then substitutes for conscience. To make a decision in conscience is to consult the truth of the nature of things in themselves. Conscience begins “outside-in.” The objective reality summons accountability from me and forms the central coordinate of conscience. Conscience must begin with the true good. This starting point ensures that freedom and truth are not enemies.

There is a faculty deep within that I do not create. It is not programmed. This region is more than super ego or social convention. It is however, formed. The moral sense of conscience must be molded, not developed simply by feelings, opinions, circumstance, intentions or movements, but by the deep moral sense in which we participate by being human and capable of reason. Conscience does not simply decide for happy or sad, but for good or evil. Conscience lines up the quandaries in size order and sees the resemblance. Marriage, racism, the environment, hunger, and abortion are not competing events. They are cousins, if not siblings. Conscience refuses to let one of these become an “issue.”

Conscience winces when it hears a candidate claim that he can fix health care, but still agree that a child in the womb can be killed. Conscience knows that if a candidate favors human embryonic stem cell research, which always includes the killing of a human person, then our neighborhoods can never be free of violence – because we just voted for violence. The moral sense knows that if you treat the environment any way you like, sooner or later you will need treatment because of the environment. Conscience realizes that if you support torture you have just paid the deposit for a war twenty years from now.

Conscience sees broadly. It breaks the bubble, brushes back the curtain, pries down the lever, and by the leverage of honest truth can not simply change, but can transform, the world.
 
actually, it wasn’t doctor keep the baby alive…it was provide medical care to a baby born alive. Obama voted against it because it went against the original intent to kill the baby. The other bill would have required a 2nd physician to determine if the baby was viable, or something like that. He did not like either
I am sorry but when pure EVIL as this is public knowledge, there is NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for voting for this man. Just wait until the entire health care bill kicks in. People are going to be in for a very rude awakening. This man is as anti life as they come.
 
Fr. Serpa said we do not sin if we vote according to our conscience. In the scenario you paint, someone would be voting contrary to their conscience.
This is what is required, to follow our conscience, a well formed conscience. With that comes great responsibility to know the Church teachings. When the occasion comes up that our conscience is in disagreement with the teachings, we are required to look into these teachings and learn why there is a difference, then conform to the Church teaching, not disregard the teaching with the excuse that “well I’m not voting because of that, I’m voting because of this.” This is being obstinate against the Church and is the error that Fr. Serpa is talking about. Now if in ignorance or inability to understand because of mental capacity issues you choose, this is different.

This whole idea that we each have the duty to follow our conscience even though it may not conform to Church teaching is scary. I’ve had discussions here with those who say they are liberal and the Church doesn’t accept his liberal views so he doesn’t go to the Catholic Church anymore. This isn’t following a well formed conscience it is following our own hardness of heart and our own ideas, “the road to destruction is wide and many choose it.”

If one must ignore one sentence of a statement to accept the next, then the statement is on no use, it becomes a lie, not from the author but the one who repeats it in error. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition along with the Magisterium are misquoted by Catholics every time we discuss these issues. Until we, as Catholics conform to the Church, who sitting at the Head is Jesus Christ, we will continue to be split 50/50.

Truth is absolute, and absolutely Jesus is the Truth.
 
I think some people are misunderstading what Fr Serpa meant by conscience. I doubt Fr Serpa meant that it would be acceptable to vote for a pro abortion candidate if your conscience thinks it is okay separated from the teachings from the Church

Fr Brian Bransfield said
Exactly…I can take parts of anything, even scripture to allow me to continue in my sinful ways with a good heart if I like, doesn’t make me right or just. It makes me seem foolish.😦
 
Well then why not legalize everything that some feel is okay then. Prostitution, euthanasia, human & animal relations, bigamy, human sacrifice, etc can all be legalized and the conscience of the person involved can be the judge as to whether it is right for them or not.

Your statement even goes as far as saying that murder should not be legal because people still commit murder even though it is illegal. Societies make laws because of God’s law, natural law. Life is first and foremost a God given right by His law. Until we as a people of this planet earth realize life exists inside the womb this legalized murder will continue, in the name of relative truth.
Legalizing all wrongs is contrary to common sense. It is senseless. You are making up your own wild statements and attributing them to me.

Abortion is no doubt evil and there is no need to keep repeating it as though no one knows about it. But whether or not to have a baby is to be left to the mother’s conscience. You have NO RIGHT to be anyone’s conscience keeper in this regard. It is between them and God and not even the state may intervene.
 
Legalizing all wrongs is contrary to common sense. It is senseless. You are making up your own wild statements and attributing them to me.

Abortion is no doubt evil and there is no need to keep repeating it as though no one knows about it. But whether or not to have a baby is to be left to the mother’s conscience. You have NO RIGHT to be anyone’s conscience keeper in this regard. It is between them and God and not even the state may intervene.
I agree this is not a right, it is a God given duty to defend the life of the child. You can defend the mother’s right to take the life of the child; I will try my best to take her right to choose to kill her child. You can paint me as the extremist but you would be wrong in God’s eyes, and nothing else matters.

If what you put forth is true then why stop there? I have three children, now my economic situation makes it impossible to feed all three, which one do I kill? They are my kids, and if you are consistent then it is my choice, right?

The only difference here is my living children can speak up for themselves, the unborn cannot. What is alike is that they are both life and are both God’s creation and must have us as a society FIGHT for them.

Again, you fight for the mother’s right to be selfish; I will fight for the child’s right to live. If this gets me labeled as extreme, I’ll take that label.
 
My common sense tells me that not all wrongs can be controlled through legislation and some should be left to the conscience of those who commit.
Yes you are right. Not all wrongs can be controlled through legislation. Adultery which is morally wrong is not illegal.

However abortion is murder and murder is illegal. Before Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal. So this wrong of abortion was at some time illegal.
 
Murder is not a personal choice–why should abortion be a personal choice!

We don’t care about the consciences of murderers–we prosecute them and put them in jail–why should abortion be different?

If slavery is indeed wrong and unnegotiable are you going to tell me that killing the unborn IS negotiable?

When you have to explain such elementary things of right and wrong it shows just how far America has gone down the moral abyss!

I believe that there are SOME American Catholics who would vote for abortion even if their bishops told them point blank to their face that it was a mortal sin to do so and if they remained unrepentant about doing so til their deaths that they would go to Hell!

A majority of Catholics in the way they vote are indeed Cafeteria Catholics!

Lord have mercy on us!
 
Yes you are right. Not all wrongs can be controlled through legislation. Adultery which is morally wrong is not illegal.

However abortion is murder and murder is illegal. Before Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal. So this wrong of abortion was at some time illegal.
Legal does NOT mean it is lawful. It only means that it is impractical to legally ban it though it is wrong. All evil cannot have legislations. There can be NO legal action possible against atheists. Elected people’s representatives have an unalienable right to legislate as deemed fit after much deliberation, discussion and debates. That does not mean they are legalizing some wrongs; they are merely letting people be their own judges for certain wrongs.
 
Voted for a “president” who supports and advocates… and votes to kill babies. :mad:
How do you know that they are in mortal sin? Do you understand what conditions need to be met to meet that threshold?
 
No… catholic in name only. They do not practice thier faith IMO.
This voting statistic is shocking!

But…once you are baptized, you are Catholic forever, are you not? (I have read this dozens of times on this site, is it correct?).

So these people who are baptized and call themselves Catholic are, indeed, “real” Catholics, aren’t they?
 
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