Obama won Catholic vote, regular churchgoers chose Romney [CC]

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Thank you so much for this but, man, I wish you would’ve posted this before the election. There were so many people, Democrat, Independent and Republican, who thought it was ‘honorable’ to either skip voting or vote for the Independent candidate. All this did was allow the current administration, who is adamantly Pro-Murder, renew their place in the White House.
Ridgerunner’s recent posts show dramatically that there is and has been a clear difference between the parties on pro-life issues. That information has been out there for years now. It’s unmistakeable. The Democratic Party has turned itself into the party of death, in its positive embrace and support of intrinsic evils. The GOP does not support intrinsic evils and has taken a great many pro-life initiatives.

The information has been out there. But half of all Catholics either don’t get it or don’t care about it. And I don’t understand that. I really don’t.
 
We can only speculate on what the outcomes would have been if the repeals were limited to protect religious liberty, and remove any coverages for abortion.

Do you think that there is a medium which both sides could agree on the desire to provide healthcare to all citizens of the US?
Yes, but the left will have to budge on it’s position of considering abortion a sacrament.

Oh, another problem I have. The biggest complaint that people I have talked to have with ObamaCare is mandated coverage. Not the mandate itself, but what is actually covered. Most people I know want to pick and choose what kind of coverage they need. What if people want only catastrophic care? HSA’s? etc.?

Obama does little to provide more competition and choice in this arena.
 
It would be nice if everyone in the U.S. had entirely adequate healthcare. No question about it. It would be nice, as well, if everyone in the U.S. had a 2013 Mercedes Benz.
One contributes to a dignity of life and the other is excessive.
The real question is what it would take to provide a reasonable degree of access to what is, in truth, a scarce resource. There are lot of promising answers to that, but none is in Obamacare.

Obamacare does not provide complete healthcare, nor does it protect conscience. First of all, it gives incredible power to the executive (Obama, Sebelius) to determine virtually everything. To imagine that he will not use it to promote abortion, contraceptives, other violations of conscience, is simply wishful thinking. He has already demonstrated that. He admits that 20 million will have no coverage. The CBO estimates 30 million. Obamacare takes 700 billion out of Medicare. Not all Medicare recipients are poor, but many are. Obamacare dumps 17 million additional people onto Medicaid, which is already overcrowded with the result that doctors limit the number of Medicaid people they will see already.

All Obamacare is, is a device to force one segment of the middle class to subsidize another segment of the middle class which, in itself, might be illusory because premiums for both are going up a lot due to mandates.

So, with Obamacare and Obama, we got total disruption in healthcare, abandonment of many of the elderly, 20 or 30 million not covered, and the president with plenery and unobstructed power to fund abortions as much as he wants to.

Failure, total and complete.
Let’s stop talking Obamacare and speak of American healthcare for all. There are models in the world today, but it costs money. Can we see past the money and seek it on the merits of giving a dignity of life to all?

Republicans don’t address the other issues in ways that are desirable to the majority of citizens. That’s a reality. I believe some evidence can be seen in the issue of immigration in relation to the way Hispanics voted.

I believe Americans are not as far right, or as far left, as the few who make the decisions. We are choosing the closest, with neither making an acceptable delivery because of the extremes.

You make some good points with the posts on Bush vs. Obama, but remember Bush never said he was more pro choice than Ted Kennedy and change the view as his political aspirations changed. Then one still has the question referencing Bush, ‘why wasn’t it brought before the supreme court, if that is the most effective way to combat abortion?’ He still allowed RU486 to be sold to the US by the Chinese, even after the product had tainted problems that cost several women their life. It appears to be politically motivated, but I cannot say for sure why. Instead of going on and on, I’ll summarize by saying, some things were done, but the motivations can be questioned; e.g. money vs result, or an appearance of accomplishment without a full commitment to keep an issue ‘alive’. Then back to my original point, we were talking about Romney and not Bush.

I didn’t vote for either one, and am not sorry for it. I think both sides are too far out, and promoting that outside the medium that needs be addressed to reach the most favorable response. I am pro life, supporter of DOMA, and for religious liberties. I also believe if other countries can do it, we can find a way to provide healthcare to all our citizens. I believe government can provide social assistance in conjunction with our private charities. I believe Social Security is not an entitlement, but a promised future return. I believe the wealthy can pay an equal percentage to what others pay. I believe this country was built by immigrants and cannot limit immigration based on one’s ability to pay.

This would be a time to discuss the other issues, if we truly want them set aside, with some confidence, for non negotiable issues prior to the next election. Through example, isn’t this when people can prove the priorities of issues through concessions of the other issues?
 
“We first must change the culture and then the culture will shape our politicians and laws,” she told EWTN News.

I don’t agree, because too many poorly catechized people identify “legal” with “moral”, and because too many people like “nuns on the bus” are willing to support abortion-minded politicians publicly for the sake of their organizations’ public funding. Someday,I agree, the newer priests, nuns and bishops who actually promote the teachings of the Church will make a difference. In the meantime, millions upon millions of innocent unborn children will die because some refuse to oppose it politically. We, as Catholics, should hang our heads in shame before our Evangelical and Fundamentalist brothers who, despite their ignorance of the full Truth, are at least willing to see the obvious and act on it.

And what are the chances of a “change of culture” anyway, when abortion-promoting politicians are excused for the immorality of their positions, and prolife politicians are misrepresented as being no better? The culture will not change when the voices of prolife leaders are sneered at or silenced.
Shouldn’t we follow Christ’s teachings? He taught us to seek a conversion of hearts and never preached on the legislation of moralities. He didn’t seem to be bothered with percentages of accomplishing.
 
I don’t get it, I really don’t. There are some people at the church I work at that voted for Obama. How could a Catholic vote for someone who supports partial-birth abortion? How? It makes me sick to my stomach to think that a Catholic would betray God like that. :bighanky:
 
catholicleague.org/some-thoughts-on-the-catholic-vote/
Catholics are a quarter of the electorate, and they voted for Obama over Romney by the same margin as the total electorate, 50%-48%. Contrary to what many pundits are saying, this suggests that the bishops’ campaign for religious liberty, waged against the Health and Human Services mandate, actually paid off: Obama got 54% of the Catholic vote in 2008 to McCain’s 45%.
Some commentators talk about the Catholic vote as if it were monolithic, and others say it doesn’t exist. It would be more accurate to say there are four Catholic votes: practicing and non-practicing; white and Latino.
Among practicing Catholics, Obama received 42% to Romney’s 57%; among non-practicing Catholics, Obama picked up 56% while Romney got 42%.
White Catholics gave Obama 40% of their votes while Romney earned 59%; Latino Catholics gave Obama 71% of their votes while Romney earned 27%.
From previous survey research published by the Pew Forum, we know that practicing Latino Catholics are less likely to support the Democrats than are non-practicing Latinos.
What this shows is that the more practicing a Catholic is, of any ethnic background, the less likely he is to support the more secular of the candidates.
 
Yes, but the left will have to budge on it’s position of considering abortion a sacrament.

Oh, another problem I have. The biggest complaint that people I have talked to have with ObamaCare is mandated coverage. Not the mandate itself, but what is actually covered. Most people I know want to pick and choose what kind of coverage they need. What if people want only catastrophic care? HSA’s? etc.?

Obama does little to provide more competition and choice in this arena.
Good spin for an election, but poor choice of wording for a post election, in my honest opinion. No one, even supporters of pro choice, view abortion as a sacrament. It’s the easy to see through examples like that that cause others to feel emboldened and entrench themselves into a position of wrongness. In short, it hurts more than it helps, again in my honest opinion.

I have car insurance, mandated by the government. Where’s the outrage?

Looking at England, France, or Canada, as an example, we see people receiving care in catastrophic events. It’s spun in the US for political interests.

I work in EMS, in a rural county in Florida. When something very urgent happens, we often opt to call for a helicopter to expedite delivery of the patient to the hospital. Those ‘life flights’ now cost between $33,000. and $37,000. The reason costs are so high is because not everyone pays, so those that do end up absorbing the costs for those that don’t. Is that the competition we need in the ‘industry’?

The same goes for hospital stays, treatments, and medications. So the insurance companies charge more and more. Everyone is making money off the system we have now. Is their right to profit, more important than a person’s chance at quality care?

Specialized medical practices can turn people away, according to whether they can pay or not. Not so? County hospitals cannot turn people away? Correct! They must provide stabilization only. Necessary life saving treatments do not fall under that guideline. Also, the patient’s choices are limited on who they can see, based on their ability to pay.

Money? Life? Money? Life? Should be an easy decision for pro life people.
 
You make some good points with the posts on Bush vs. Obama, but remember Bush never said he was more pro choice than Ted Kennedy and change the view as his political aspirations changed.
What kind of charity are you expressing when you refuse to accept the possibility that Mitt Romney can change? Would you accuse Abby Johnson who was a PP Manager of not being against abortion because at one time in the past she was in favor it?

Admit it, you hate republicans and the Republican party.
 
I don’t get it, I really don’t. There are some people at the church I work at that voted for Obama. How could a Catholic vote for someone who supports partial-birth abortion? How? It makes me sick to my stomach to think that a Catholic would betray God like that. :bighanky:
Can you show me where the Church is stating the a Catholic that voted for a particular candidate ‘betrayed God’? Does God not have the power over all things to prevent such ‘betrayals’?
 
I believe the wealthy can pay an equal percentage to what others pay.
Why do you believe in a tax reduction for the rich alone? To get to the same percentage as “others”, you would have to reduce the tax rates of the rich. Somehow I doubt you really meant to say this.
 
Can you show me where the Church is stating the a Catholic that voted for a particular candidate ‘betrayed God’? Does God not have the power over all things to prevent such ‘betrayals’?
You have said elsewhere that you did not vote for Obama. But half of all Catholics apparently did. Whether voting for one who supports intrinsic evil is a betrayal of God or not, is I suppose, a subjective matter, at least from an individual’s standpoint. Objectively, though, it supports the evil advocated by the person one votes for.
 
What kind of charity are you expressing when you refuse to accept the possibility that Mitt Romney can change? Would you accuse Abby Johnson who was a PP Manager of not being against abortion because at one time in the past she was in favor it?

Admit it, you hate republicans and the Republican party.
Realistic discernment of a politician, the same as why our Church does not support a particular politician over another.

The last sentence and much worse is so freely cast about on these forums, judging, condemning, inflaming, etc. That’s what I am trying to get people to recognize. Politics is not a reason to leave Christian charity and love aside. We are obligated through Him.

I don’t trust either party to deliver us. One is no better than the other. It appears some think so highly of their party that one is not allowed to criticize it. 🤷

We are not going to find solutions if we cannot get off the far right, or far left. There is a middle ground that could unite the majority. I believe that politically.
 
Shouldn’t we follow Christ’s teachings? He taught us to seek a conversion of hearts and never preached on the legislation of moralities. He didn’t seem to be bothered with percentages of accomplishing.
Jesus had no reason, at the time, to speak of American politics or that of any other era except to the extent that, to a degree, the high priests were political animals.

But He did set up the Church, which has always sought both conversion of hearts and moral government.
 
Why do you believe in a tax reduction for the rich alone? To get to the same percentage as “others”, you would have to reduce the tax rates of the rich. Somehow I doubt you really meant to say this.
Not so, the wealthy pay a less percentage of the average citizen. Didn’t Romney’s tax forms show he paid less than the average American? So as not to appear partisan, as some jump to say, I’m sure Obama’s tax returns would show the same.

Didn’t Buffet say he pays less percentage than his secretary?
 
We are not going to find solutions if we cannot get off the far right, or far left. There is a middle ground that could unite the majority. I believe that politically.
What is the “middle ground” on abortion?
 
There is a Buddhist saying…The hand that points to the moon, is not itself the moon. And so it is with the Church. You may find absolute truth within the institutional church to the exclusion of other wisdom traditions however many have a much larger God that is capable of loving all of his creation in all of its diversity. We must all take care to avoid dualistic thinking that “accuses” anyone that does not hold such fundamentalist perspectives…in the accusing, is sin.
What I said is that if you’re Catholic, you can’t go picking and choosing what you believe. We actually have a responsibility to challenge our brothers and sisters in love (and to be challenged on our own) regarding the Faith. And when you call me “fundamentalist” in my perspectives, you accuse me. Fundamentalism has nothing to with Catholicism and is an invention based on a series of “fundamentals” that Protestants hold to. I’m a Catholic.

I don’t need Buddhism to inform my Catholic Faith.There’s only one Truth and that is Jesus Christ. He only founded One Church and when its members participate in it, implicit in that free-will decision to participate is the assent to believe all that it teaches.
 
Can you show me where the Church is stating the a Catholic that voted for a particular candidate ‘betrayed God’? Does God not have the power over all things to prevent such ‘betrayals’?
She can’t do it anymore than you can show her where the Church says murder is “betraying God”. Requiring her to come up with a statement like that is cynical.
 
You have said elsewhere that you did not vote for Obama. But half of all Catholics apparently did. Whether voting for one who supports intrinsic evil is a betrayal of God or not, is I suppose, a subjective matter, at least from an individual’s standpoint. Objectively, though, it supports the evil advocated by the person one votes for.
Ok, here we are again. It does not necessarily represent a support of evil. Not according to documents written by Cardinal Ratzinge, the Faithful Citizenship Voter’s Guide, and others. I have a lot of posts in this thread that question the language, and why it was not changed. Those posts are overlooked for some reason.
 
She can’t do it anymore than you can show her where the Church says murder is “betraying God”. Requiring her to come up with a statement like that is cynical.
I assure you, I did not mean it to be cynical. I do not believe anyone deliberately voted to ‘betray God’.
 
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