Obama won Catholic vote, regular churchgoers chose Romney [CC]

[livnlern]

I saw a news report, which said that, while Hispanic people are generally pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, 71% of Hispanics voted for Obama. Obviously the Church failed to reach this group. This is because we have had a weak, do-nothing Church that is afraid to preach the truth about sin and the political issues of the day.

I don’t think our Church is at all weak or do-nothing. Here’s an article about the Vatican’s response to the push for gay marriage:
wibw.com/home/nationalnews/headlines/Vatican-Digs-in-After-Gay-Marriage-Advances-178663381.html

“One might say the church, at least on this front, has been defeated,” L’Osservatore Romano wrote. “But that’s not the case.”

The article insisted that Catholics were putting up a valiant fight to uphold church teaching in the face of “politically correct ideologies invading every culture of the world” that are backed by institutions like the United Nations, which last year passed a non-binding resolution condemning anti-gay discrimination."

Can the Church do more? Yes, I think we need to hear more about current issues from the pulpit and how to deal with them. The Church was slow to advise people on voting responsibility. In the 2008 election, nothing was said beforehand about voting pro-life. I think the issue of social justice promised by the Dems kept many priests and bishops from reminding us about pro-life issues.They didn’t speak out until the HHS mandate came about before this election.

 

[Lapey]

We have our Church, which is above either political party. We are a part of God’s kingdom, which is above ALL things.

That is how your conscience leads you, and you must follow your conscience. As I’ve stated that all are not equal intellectually, or spiritually. We are always growing. We are where the Holy Spirit has us in each moment. It is according to His purpose. We cannot explicitly speak against another person’s conscience.
We have language that is in the middle of this debate. The Bishops were aware of the arguments of the verbiage, and revisited the voter’s guide prior to this election. After their assembly of Bishops, in the US, the guide was released without any changes.

Does an assembly of Bishops have access to the Vatican, either directly to the Holy Father, or one of his representatives?

Is it possible that the assembly released the voter’s guide without changes, because of the influence in consciences a change would have made and thereby been against the teaching on consciences? To have stated it was a misinterpretation, either way, would have given influence over consciences, one way or the other.

There is some credibility to that line of thought when we consider the clarity of statements received. How many Bishops are there in America? How many spoke publicly, one way or the other on the election? Of those that did speak, how many actually named candidates?

I am Christian, and a member of the Catholic Church, and I believe in all it teaches. To me there is nothing to apologize for because of that, for either of us. I to act Catholic, but sometimes have others who look at me for other reasons and question my Catholicity.

We are both Catholic. While our consciences may not be the same on all issues, they are the same on the issues infallibly instructed to each of us. Also, our consciences may lead us down different paths of achievement.

He who is for you, cannot be against you.

I believe the statement I bolded is the just of the difference in our opinions. You seem to believe that our consciences are infallible and we must follow them even if they are against Church direction and teaching. This is not the truth. We must learn, discern and conform; or we are in error. Yes, we must conform to the truth spoken by the Church.

Have the bishops here in the USA been in 100% agreement or have all been publically vocal? No. Have they revamped the voter’s guide, no. Personally I don’t think it needed to be updated. Did anyone of them call out a candidate by name? No, and no one would expect that, do you? This part of the discussion is why I am so hard on the members of the clergy, we have not been clear enough, not have we been forceful enough preaching and teaching truth.

We have not done a good job as a Church for the last 50 or so years about stating the authoritative role of Mother Church. Catholics are bound to follow Church teachings, this is accomplished by learning and discerning and conforming. It is not accomplished by following a conscience which is in indifference to the authority.

 

[Lochias]

Because Obama has NO role whatsoever in the murder of unborn babies. He is as respectable and lovable as Blessed Mother Teresa.

http://play.esea.net/global/media_p...loads/7/75222/2072040-not_sure_if_serious.jpg

 

[BroomWagon]

The Church belongs to all of us members, so I’m not sure what your problem with that is. If you don’t like what Catholics do, there are lots of other places to worship…

Where do you get this from the Bible or Magisterium? I don’t need made up points and please do not use bullying language with me, “If you don’t like what Cathollics do.”

Now where is it written “The Church Belongs to ALL OF US members”.

Paul writes we are the Body of Christ. The Church belongs to Christ.

To rephrase your quote: “If you don’t like what the Catholic Church stands for, there are lots of other places to worship”.

Now, I will wait for your links and backup. If you do not have them, I in the meantime will find where Paul said this.

Above all, THE CHURCH BELONGS TO CHRIST, CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.

If you have to ask this, man.

 

[BroomWagon]

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.- 1 Corinthians 12:27

We are a part of the body of Christ.

Not that the Church belongs to us, it belongs to Christ.

 

[BroomWagon]

http://play.esea.net/global/media_p...loads/7/75222/2072040-not_sure_if_serious.jpg

And Charles Manson was not involved in those murders in California, he actually was not present at those murders. But he was convicted of them indeed.

 

[Pitcharan]

http://play.esea.net/global/media_p...loads/7/75222/2072040-not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Democratically elected Lawmakers are as guilty or as blameless as Moses the Lawgiver, with respect to the Laws they make.

Those who commit sins are alone answerable to God and not those who decriminalized it, just as Moses was in no way accountable for indiscriminate divorce.

 

[Lapey]

We can only speculate on what the outcomes would have been if the repeals were limited to protect religious liberty, and remove any coverages for abortion.

Do you think that there is a medium which both sides could agree on the desire to provide healthcare to all citizens of the US?

This is where you and I are on the same page. Health care is a right to everyone and a duty to everyone to provide it. This should be universally done. for the most part it is with Medicaid and other programs. What cannot happen and what is happening, is to take down the private HC industry to accomplish it.

We were known to have the best health care system in the world and we are making universal changes to it that will affect everyone, some will be better off; but the majority will have less in the end. This, my friend is redistribution and through out history our Church through Her leaders have adamantly opposed.

We were so close, now we are heading in the wrong direction.

 

[BackToTheRock]

** you said “pluralistic”. Remember that.**

Please elaborate.

 

[BroomWagon]

This is where you and I are on the same page. Health care is a right to everyone and a duty to everyone to provide it. This should be universally done. for the most part it is with Medicaid and other programs. What cannot happen and what is happening, is to take down the private HC industry to accomplish it.

We were known to have the best health care system in the world and we are making universal changes to it that will affect everyone, some will be better off; but the majority will have less in the end. This, my friend is redistribution and through out history our Church through Her leaders have adamantly opposed.

We were so close, now we are heading in the wrong direction.

Real experience, someone from England I know hurt their knee, 24 week waiting list. This is the truth, they were able to get some sort of private consultation or leapfrog the list, I will have to look it up but this is what is headed our way.

 

[BroomWagon]

Please elaborate.

Pluralistic society, exactly as said, Whites, Asians, African Americans, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, just what it says on the tin.

 

[Lapey]

Shows one to be about as pro choice as Ted Kennedy? There was a Republican that claimed to be more pro choice than Ted Kennedy, once.

Now again, what would be the opinion on healthcare for everyone in the US, if it excluded abortion, or contraceptives; which affect religious liberties?

First statement here has been made before and it has nothing to do with anything but to muddy the waters.

Second staement, I agree, healthcare for every person, citizen or not. abortion, contraception and any other issue against Church teaching excluded.

 

[Lapey]

I don’t get it, I really don’t. There are some people at the church I work at that voted for Obama. How could a Catholic vote for someone who supports partial-birth abortion? How? It makes me sick to my stomach to think that a Catholic would betray God like that. :bighanky:

I have the same disease!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Second staement, I agree, healthcare for every person, citizen or not. abortion, contraception and any other issue against Church teaching excluded.

I’ve wondered why Catholics don’t approach a company for group rate quotes?

 

[Lapey]

Good spin for an election, but poor choice of wording for a post election, in my honest opinion. No one, even supporters of pro choice, view abortion as a sacrament. It’s the easy to see through examples like that that cause others to feel emboldened and entrench themselves into a position of wrongness. In short, it hurts more than it helps, again in my honest opinion.

I have car insurance, mandated by the government. Where’s the outrage?

.

As true as your words in the first statement are, your second statement are equally false. Auto insurance is not the same, we can choose not to drive, we can choose not to comply and still drive. Healthcare is a human right; it should be accessible to everyone. We do not choose to get cancer or have a heart attack.

If you want others, like me to agree with your statements, don’t make straw man arguments.

 

[BackToTheRock]

The Bishops have made it clear how we should vote, vote is authority, this socieity is ours, Christians and Protestants, Atheists too,** you said “pluralistic”. Remember that.**

The Bishops have made it clear how we should vote? Interesting. This is precisely what 501c3 organizations are *not *allowed to do. From the IRS website in regards to 501 c3 status: “On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.” According to this document, old.usccb.org/ogc/groupruling.pdf, the USCCB is a 501 c3.

It’s because I love the Church as much as anyone else here that I’m concerned that the Bishops have given the impression that they’ve been telling the flock how to vote. They might want to address this at their annual meeting.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The recommendations for providing counseling to those with chronic conditions come from the MEDICAL COMMUNITY via research and consensus. Those are international recommendations: “stop smoking”, “lose weight”, “eat healthy”…for two main reasons: because doctors have a DUTY to guide people regarding keeping healthy and because the care of chronic conditions is predicted to escalate to the point where, it will become a development issue in many countries: harming the workforce and the economy.

So no, the guidelines being enforced by Medicare/Medicaid are not some conspiracy to eventually cull the chronically ill - an increasingly younger population - but to encourage doctors, and by extension, their patients - to be responsible - both personally and financially.

I read of a recent study indicating that “well care” does not have a significant impact on health outcomes. Why, even if it did, is reimbursement for chronic patients reduced?

And does anybody truly believe that recording healthy directives AND THE RESPONSES to those AND the “advanced directive” (living will) advice and response, somehow makes a person stop smoking or eating twinkies? Has it made Obama stop smoking?

I recently read a well-researched masters’ thesis involving overweight teenage girls. The writer did independent research of a significant number of teenage girls, their medical records, etc. The conclusion was that being told to lose weight in a medical context, particularly when the advice was not solicited by the patient who was there for other reasons, only makes them defensive and to see overweight as “normal for me”. The researcher did conclude that significant, ongoing counseling and “coaching” on an ongoing basis might have had a different result, but that the perfunctory admonitions of physicians who are doing it in order to “punch the card” were worse than useless.

Personally, I think it strains credulity to the breaking point to suppose that a president who expressed that it mighrt not be “worthwhile” to give hip replacements to people who would statistically outlive the replacement, and who has set up a system that will almost certainly lead to rationing, will not utilize overwhelming statistics on an individual who does not follow medical advice to limit or eliminate consequential treatment for that person.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I’ve wondered why Catholics don’t approach a company for group rate quotes?

That’s because it’s illegal in many locales. Also, the mandates are the issue.

One has to own a legit business, and have some sort of employment agreement in place in order to have a group policy IIRC.

For example, I can’t form an independent group with my neighbors and go buy a group plan at Excellus.

This is why people are up in arms about ObamaCare. It does not address common sense issues that people face.

 

[Lapey]

What kind of charity are you expressing when you refuse to accept the possibility that Mitt Romney can change? Would you accuse Abby Johnson who was a PP Manager of not being against abortion because at one time in the past she was in favor it?

Admit it, you hate republicans and the Republican party.

Another great example if my memory serves me, The Roe in Roe v Wade, is now an advocate for the pro-life side against abortion. She has made statements about being used as a pawn in the whole situation, not really understanding what she was involved in.

I used to be a pro-choice guy years ago. I felt that it was not my duty to tell someone else what to do with their body, Lord forgive my ignorance!!!

Don’t think I can be more pro-life than I am now, thank you Lord for teaching me in my ignorance!!!

 

[Lapey]

Can you show me where the Church is stating the a Catholic that voted for a particular candidate ‘betrayed God’? Does God not have the power over all things to prevent such ‘betrayals’?

That would mean free will is not true…help!