Obedience to the Magesterium

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Doctrine is Latin for teaching.The purest form of the Church teaching is in the homily, when a person ordained by the Church preaches on the Word of God present in the proclamation of Scripture, especially the Gospel. Obviously, doctrine also comes in more abstracted forms, Papal documents and Conciliar anathemas and the like, but still, it is preaching the Gospel that is the base for all doctrine. That is what is meant by teaching “ex cathedra.”

I say this to ask how you listen to homilies. If a priest says something you disagree with, do you consider what that might mean for you? Do you take notes so you can report him to the bishop? Has any priest ever changed your mind about some issue? These are the kinds of things you have to ask yourself to figure out what the Church has taught.

Hear what is being said, and take it into your heart where God will guide you. “Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart.” as Luke says. We do this like she does, reflecting on what might be hard or confusing.

This may not be easy. To take capital punishment as an example, there are different ways to understand evaluate what has been said. Mr Voris uses a hard edge, we know what has been taught and we must keep to it. But others find more mercy in their own hearts. They see the church allowing civil authorities to kill some prisoners, but not allowing clergy to participate. What does that say to us? There is something not quite right about killing, it should be left to others. Pope Francis comes from Argentina in the era of the Mothers of the Plaza Mayo, of mothers grieving for their children killed by the state. Perhaps this has enabled him to hear from God that the state is not allowed to kill anyone any more. Our conscience, the place where we meet God, is the place where we reflect. We may see that what seems like contradiction is actually an affirmation of the discomfort the Church has always felt wih capital punishment. Someone else, like Mr Voris, may hear somehing different in his heart. Some day, if we hear what Popes say, God will guide us to unity on this question, and we will affirm that no mother should be forced to grieve because the state has executed her child.

I do not know if that makes sense to anyone but me. The question you ask is hard. Hearing and pondering are all we can do sometimes.
 
Nestorius was not the living Magisterium of his time. Some Christians then, and now, say he was right, that he was following the true Tradition.

Catholics today reject Nestorius not because of a layman who challenged him; lay challengers have been wrong as well as right, even if they happen to be “brave”.

We trust the magisterium to guide us as to which path was, and is, correct. The magisterium determined Nestorius was wrong.
 
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Michael Vor… 😲

Please listen to someone a little more, no, strike that… less confrontational. Less defiant. Less self-appointed.

The Holy Father normally acts in concert with the College of Cardinals. I don’t think that happened in this case(?) If so, the dust has not settled yet.

Anyway, if we are not a lawmaker, president, governor or executioner, it does not, as a practical matter, apply to us.

Let the Cardinals do the heavy lifting. They decide, they teach, we (supposedly) listen.
 
I have completely stopped watching Church Militant. It is very dangerous. It is condemned by Mr Voris’ Archdiocese and Archbishop. He constantly targets honourable clergy for being too ‘unorthodox’. I personally believe that there can be ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ interpretation of Church doctrine. For example, some clergy choose to express Church doctrine by being kind and warm towards people who support moral evils while at the same time condemning such evils. Some decide to openly condemn moral evils rather than focus on welcoming and being kind. I personally think that condemning moral evils is the best option. However, some bishops and priests who take a softer perspective are still adhering to Church doctrine, however they try to welcome people to the Church without condemning. I don’t agree with this perspective (as I think it waters down what is doctrine and what is not) but it is still in agreement with Church doctrine.

I do have a problem with people like Fr James Martin who certainly deviate from Church teaching, and also people like Michael Voris who obsess over ‘unorthodox’ clergy. All clergy need to be respected. Mr Voris criticises people like Cdl Wuerl and Cdl Dolan who are outstanding defenders of the faith. Not good.

We must all pledge complete loyalty to our ordinary, all bishops and of course the Supreme Pontiff. I know that if a bishop was to dissent from doctrine then they would be put right or removed from their position. I will always trust and stay loyal to the Church, because they decide who follows doctrine and who does not. If they do not follow doctrine, then they are removed from office as a bishop. No active bishop is a dissenter. Therefore, nobody can criticise bishops because they are our shepherds.

Christ, you are in all the Church stands for.
 
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We should be obedient to Jesus Christ and his word. We should test the spirts to see if what we are taught is in accordance with the word of God.
 
You should question anyone in authority because humans are fallible. Blind obedience to authority is why sexual abuse was allowed to run rampant in the Catholic Church. A powerless laity strengthens corruption among the clergy. No person is above God!
 
The Bishop Accountability website is focused on those clergy who are suspected of sexual abuse and similar bad acts like covering it up, embezzling money to fund illicit sexual activity, etc.
It is not focused on the Magisterium’s promulgation of Catholic doctrine.

There’s no doctrinal issue regarding sexual abuse, priests breaking their vows to have sex, priests stealing money from the collection, etc. These are clear-cut wrong acts, and there is no teaching from the Magisterium that such acts are permissible.
 
And Faithful Shepherds just happens to be run by LifeSite (logo at bottom), aka Voris.

Yep, not biased at all.
 
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In the 1800s the Old Catholic movement taught Sola Traditio, that the hierarchy is not necessary to interpret Tradition, each person can. This movement broke off into multiple groups today, each of which claims the True interpretation of Tradition, though they all contradict each other. Distrust of the living Magisterium is the ONLY thing they seem to agree on.

The old movement assumed only popes who died before 1800 are authoritative. The new Sola Traditio movement, including 1P5, CM, Lepanto, Rorate, etc, assumes only popes dead before 1960 are authoritative.

As time goes on, the new Sola Traditio movements will lead to contradictory conclusions as well. The only thing they will agree on, along with fundamentalists and secularists, is distrust of the living Magisterium.
 
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Vico said:
Related to, but it applies also outside that scope for it states: “These doctrines require the assent of theological faith by all members of the faithful.”
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It’s still a CDF document, a commentary on an official profession of faith. When someone who isn’t taking an oath of office starts digging into the document, one might get the impression that they are being held to a particularly high standard.

The answer to the OP is so complicated and nuanced, clergy don’t even bother trying to teach it. In fact, it should be pretty obvious by all the disagreements over doctrine in the Church that the clergy don’t even agree about it.

The only thing bishops seem to have agreed upon is LG n.25. It’s very brief, and hasn’t been unfolded very well since then. Although, then Cardinal Ratzinger sure tried under JPll.
 
When the Pope speaks infallibly, he is not just making some doctrine up, he is declaring something that was already believed to be a dogma of the Catholic Church.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
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Vico:
Related to, but it applies also outside that scope for it states: “These doctrines require the assent of theological faith by all members of the faithful.”
Click to expand...
It’s still a CDF document, a commentary on an official profession of faith. When someone who isn’t taking an oath of office starts digging into the document, one might get the impression that they are being held to a particularly high standard.

The answer to the OP is so complicated and nuanced, clergy don’t even bother trying to teach it. In fact, it should be pretty obvious by all the disagreements over doctrine in the Church that the clergy don’t even agree about it.

The only thing bishops seem to have agreed upon is LG n.25. It’s very brief, and hasn’t been unfolded very well since then. Although, then Cardinal Ratzinger sure tried under JPll.
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There is corresponding canon law for it, regardless of agreement by individuals.
 
If it contradicts the early councils or scripture it should be rejected. If it’s a new revelation it should be rejected. If it contradicts the word of God in any way it is of the devil.
 
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glencor63 said:
We should be obedient to Jesus Christ and his word. We should test the spirts to see if what we are taught is in accordance with the word of God.
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How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? You don’t…except it was canonized by the Magisterium. Omit the Magisterium, then you have no NT or a very different selection of books.
Even if Sola Scriptura supporters use the same Bible they come to multiple contradictory conclusions. That’s why Sola Scriptura and Sola Traditio are both wrong. The Catholic Church rests on all 3 elements, Bible, Tradition, and living Magisterium. The Word of God is a Person - Christ.
 
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Anything purporting to be a new revelation which contradicts scripture is to be condemned. Jesus is the head of the Church, every church. He is God, the second person of the Trinity. The Church is not above God. This erroneous belief that the authority of the magisterium supercedes that of Jesus Christ is the main reason I’m discerning leaving the Catholic Church. The magisterium has forgotten who is the master.
 
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The Church has gone against Jesus in many things. I never noticed before, but now it’s very clear. I wish I’d discerned Catholicism more carefully. My conversion was a terrible mistake!
 
The Magisterium isn’t above Bible and Tradition, it communicates what is in them. How do you know Matthew, for instance, is in the NT, and that the Gospel of Mary is not? Some Bible scholars today say the Magisterium was wrong to exclude Gospel of Thomas; some Protestant churches are now adding books to the familiar 27, and dropping certain Pauline epistles. Are they wrong?
 
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