"Obedience"

[guiltyofdoubt]

I have read it over and over again on these forums…that God created us to love Him, and to be Obedient. That we must “serve” Him.

Then its said we have free will.

That we can “choose” not to serve Him or be obedient.

But then we are punished. So its not really free will. We didn’t have free will in whether we wanted to exist in the first place. So we are thrust into this situation without choice, created pawns in a game of “Do what I say, or Burn eternally”.

There are good people who sin…but there is such rigidity in Catholicism and what it teaches, that if you don’t follow the prescribed steps exactly, then you are doomed to Hell.

We are essentially dogs. We either heel, or get slapped by the Master with a newspaper, only that slapping goes on forever.

Holiness is supposedly what brings us “true happiness”. If that were so, then why isn’t it so obvious to everyone that they’d want to pursue it?

 

[Oreoracle]

This reminds me of an amusing Youtube video. God and Lucifer were having a discussion wherein God asked Lucifer why he didn’t simply obey him, to which Lucifer replies that he was given free will. God angrily responds “Yeah, but you don’t have to use it!”

So it’s a bit like putting a steak in front of a dog and punishing the dog if he attempts to eat it.

 

[InflatusMaximus]

This reminds me of an amusing Youtube video. God and Lucifer were having a discussion wherein God asked Lucifer why he didn’t simply obey him, to which Lucifer replies that he was given free will. God angrily responds “Yeah, but you don’t have to use it!”

So it’s a bit like putting a steak in front of a dog and punishing the dog if he attempts to eat it.

But to the dog… he could care less whether or not it would be wrong to eat it. He is just a dog.

You just compared sin to steak and humans to dogs, that is too simple in discussing this topic.

lets add a bit.

God doesn’t dangle sin in front of our faces daring us to partake in it that is Satan’s job.

and

God justly punishes those who don’t care about Him.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

God justly punishes those who don’t care about Him.

The case could be made that they justly punish themselves, since they didn’t have to sin.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There are good people who sin…but there is such rigidity in Catholicism and what it teaches, that if you don’t follow the prescribed steps exactly, then you are doomed to Hell.

So I’m wondering why you **freely chose **to be in RCIA, and what are the odds that you’ll finish the program?

 

[Oreoracle]

God doesn’t dangle sin in front of our faces daring us to partake in it that is Satan’s job.

But who made Satan, knowing fully what he would do to humanity?

And I disagree that the steak analogy is too simplistic. Take the sex drive as the “steak”, for example. Why make something so intensely pleasurable a sin? You could say that it’s not sinful in marriage for the sake of procreation, but the sex drive doesn’t discriminate like that. It’s always active, regardless of whether or not you have a spouse.

 

[ffg]

I have read it over and over again on these forums…that God created us to love Him, and to be Obedient. That we must “serve” Him.

Then its said we have free will.

That we can “choose” not to serve Him or be obedient.

But then we are punished. So its not really free will. We didn’t have free will in whether we wanted to exist in the first place. So we are thrust into this situation without choice, created pawns in a game of “Do what I say, or Burn eternally”.

There are good people who sin…but there is such rigidity in Catholicism and what it teaches, that if you don’t follow the prescribed steps exactly, then you are doomed to Hell.

We are essentially dogs. We either heel, or get slapped by the Master with a newspaper, only that slapping goes on forever.

Holiness is supposedly what brings us “true happiness”. If that were so, then why isn’t it so obvious to everyone that they’d want to pursue it?

Great post! Great to see people thinking.

The thing you are missing in your equation is intent - love.

God in and of himself could be fully content, no? I mean, he’s GOD! of course he needs nothing.

So in creating, it would mean that the most satisfied ‘person’ to ever exist WANTED to…

I would say ‘share’ that ‘great content’.

Otherwise, why would He create?.. to be angry and say ‘serve me’! - Why create, then? God is surely logical.

So His intent, must be something that makes sense for a person that has everything.

A person that requires others to serve them, obviously doesn’t have everything, or they wouldn’t need (want) servants.

So we enter the love equation - love does not force, by definition, impossible.

In a way, it is difficult to see that serving God is freedom, but we must be careful to understand freedom in the sense that God wants to give it to us.

If God wants to give it to us, who do we go to for it? God!

He already knows He is God and can provide ALL to you, but he will not force you to love back, that is in fact Him acting Love to YOU.

Thus true freedom comes with the act to choose to love God.

It’s backwards because we think of freedom as choice between A and B, but if we think about it, we don’t necessarily HAVE freedom due to simple choices, we just have choices.

True Freedom on the other hand is greater than just a choice, it’s sharing with God. What does God share with us?..

LIFE!

 

[ffg]

But who made Satan, knowing fully what he would do to humanity?

And I disagree that the steak analogy is too simplistic. Take the sex drive as the “steak”, for example. Why make something so intensely pleasurable a sin? You could say that it’s not sinful in marriage for the sake of procreation, but the sex drive doesn’t discriminate like that. It’s always active, regardless of whether or not you have a spouse.

I used to have my signature say something to the effect -

'The existance of Satan PROVES the LOVE of God because God allows Satan to exist after creating Lucifer.

God does not go back on his word in creation or instruction.’

Creation on the other hand? doesn’t always choose God.

We could then evaluate why God doesn’t go back on his word, but we would probably want to start with - what God creates has to be good, because God is perfect.

Creation then is the source of ‘bad’ (evil, no good, wrong, etc.)

 

[eschator83]

Welcome to both Ccom and RCIA. I think God encourages us to develop and use both the reasoning ability and the conscience He has given us, and both of these will naturally lead us to questioning and sometimes to doubt.
I think it would be arrogant to expect that we should be able to understand and to personally verify everything the Church teaches, so I try to patiently keep trying. What group or person would I (and you) possibly trust more than the Church?
I often rethink the words of a Bishop who persistently protested the concept of Papal infallibity, which deeply troubles me as well:
Once the decision (on infallibity) had been made (Vatican Council I), to tarry in the opposition party would have been inconsistent with my whole past. I would have set my own infallibilty in the place of the infallibility of the Church.
I have much hope God will forgive a few doubts if we persistently repent them, seek to understand His Truth, and do much good.
We will keep you in our prayers. I encourage you to read as much as you about several converts: GK Chesterton, Cardinal John Newman, CS Lewis (restored Anglican), Scott Hahn.

 

[guiltyofdoubt]

So I’m wondering why you **freely chose **to be in RCIA, and what are the odds that you’ll finish the program?

Oh…I’ll finish.

I compare it to having Multiple Personality Disorder.

There are questions and thoughts I pose on this board that I don’t in real life…mainly out of embarrassment.

But the answers I get from you hardline Catholics reflect indoctrination very well. They don’t answer my questions, or even make me feel like I will ever find in MY HEART the answers you all apparently have in your hearts.

To me, its akin to this: If I ask a 5 year old that TRULY BELIEVES in Santa, and all that comes with him, what would happen at Christmas if the child wad bad (misbehaved), then the child would say…AND FULLY BELIEVE…that they would not get gifts from Santa.

Eventually, that child will grow up and question Santa, and from there start doubting.

The difference of course, is that with Religion, the reverse can come to happen. My brain is working on the logic…and indeed the fairness…of it all more and more as I get older.

Part of me wants to TRULY believe, especially as fate brings me closer to death with every passing day, yet certain sin remains attractive…overwhelmingly so. I get that devout Catholics will then advise I say the Hail Mary, or another prayer, or whatever.

The FACT is that God made sex feel good, and I have yet to feel negatively about it, EXCEPT in light of the teachings of Christianity.

Other religions do not necessarily make sexuality such a taboo. Human pleasure is part of life. We all experience life in different ways and have different things that bring us pleasure. But Catholicism (Christianity) teaches there is ONE way…be a robot for God. Be Obedient. Do what He commands. Or you will surely pay FOREVER.

It rings of blackmail. And maybe that’s just the way it is. Maybe that’s truly the way God is, and how He wants it…since as scripture say, our ways are not His ways. I was raised with a much more benevolent ideal of God than what I have garnered from my foray into Catholicism in the last 8 months.

It saddens me that I should feel guilty now, when I never did before, because of what I’ve been taught at RCIA, and in the Church. I guess that’s the way the Church wants it. They tend to say “guilt is what tells you that you are sinning and what you are doing is wrong, and against God”. Well, that guilt didn’t exist BEFORE the Church made me feel guilty.

I am not one to ever say “I know it all”. I am open to possibilities of all sorts. However, that also means I DOUBT possibilities of all sorts, as I don’t know what is truly right. I know what many of you have FAITH in what is right…but I also know that 80% of the planet (roughly) thinks a different way. I guess I keep hoping that I will somehow suddenly get the Faith that you have, and maybe it won’t happen until I finish RCIA. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite for saying “I Believe”, when I have doubts. All I know is that I entered into joining the Catholic Church for an entirely different reason…and was hoping it would clarify some things for me, but in fact I feel clouded in my thoughts than ever.

 

[InflatusMaximus]

But who made Satan, knowing fully what he would do to humanity?

And I disagree that the steak analogy is too simplistic. Take the sex drive as the “steak”, for example. Why make something so intensely pleasurable a sin? You could say that it’s not sinful in marriage for the sake of procreation, but the sex drive doesn’t discriminate like that. It’s always active, regardless of whether or not you have a spouse.

Again I have to disagree. You are making it too simple. He makes things as pleasurable as they are but it is we humanity that must discern whether this pleasure is good or bad for us. A hammer is good for a house roof when it needs to be fixed but the same hammer is not very good for us when used to murder people by bludgeoning.

You point to the sex drive as “always” active regardless of whether you have a spouse. But you must recognize you are both a spiritual and natural being simultaneously. Your nature and spiritual essences are at odds with each other sometimes.

You are correct in the questioning the mystery of God’s plan. But others have done that too. Including Job who suffered tremendously throughout his later life. Job exclaims to God that he wants to know why God has made him to suffer and God basically retorts "who are you (Job) to question how I (God) conduct My business. (paraphrased)

The beginning of Wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Knowing you are created and He is creator. Until you get to that fundamental revelation you will continue to question why He does what He does.

Your position could be harmful for your eternal soul and I will pray for you.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Reportedly said by Thomas Aquinas on his deathbed:

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”

 

[guiltyofdoubt]

Again I have to disagree. You are making it too simple. He makes things as pleasurable as they are but it is we humanity that must discern whether this pleasure is good or bad for us. A hammer is good for a house roof when it needs to be fixed but the same hammer is not very good for us when used to murder people by bludgeoning.

You point to the sex drive as “always” active regardless of whether you have a spouse. But you must recognize you are both a spiritual and natural being simultaneously. Your nature and spiritual essences are at odds with each other sometimes.

You are correct in the questioning the mystery of God’s plan. But others have done that too. Including Job who suffered tremendously throughout his later life. Job exclaims to God that he wants to know why God has made him to suffer and God basically retorts "who are you (Job) to question how I (God) conduct My business. (paraphrased)

The beginning of Wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Knowing you are created and He is creator. Until you get to that fundamental revelation you will continue to question why He does what He does.

Your position could be harmful for your eternal soul and I will pray for you.

This makes me go back to the beginning of our lives then…I mean conception.

I fully adhere to the Catholic ideal that Abortion is murder, because what is growing inside the mother is a separate Human Life that will not physically stop growing until Earthly death.

But do we have “Free Will” to be conceived? NO. Of course not.

Is it a gift? Life, I mean. I’m not so sure. Not if we can be persuaded by Satan to “give in” to human pleasures that would cause us to burn for ETERNITY. Its not like a prison sentence that ends at some point, and every Grave Sin is treated with the same Eternal Sentence. I don’t feel separated from God when I masturbate, for example. In fact, I THANK God that our bodies are made in such a manner. I THANK God that I find women - His creation - so attractive! Yet the Church say that those feelings will sentence me to Hell for ETERNITY, and DO separate me willingly from God. NO! Its very hard to accept, and to wrap my mind around.

If I dishonor my Parents, that gains the same Eternal damnation as a mass murderer?

Hey…I know…God’s ways are not Our ways. But God gave us reason, and these things seem completely unreasonable. Our minds that God gave us can really cause us to think ourselves into doubt.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

Why do parents -and society agreeing with them and cooperating generally- insist that their children obey them? Is it selfishness on the parents’ part? Not normally. Children clearly benefit from their parents more than, in material terms especially, parents benefit from their children.

Now we ask children to obey for many reasons. Gratitude is one of them: the usual, rational and natural response to giving and being cared for and loved freely. But even then it is still good and better for even ungrateful children to obey their parents: it is still objectively better for them to do so for their own sake.

So we come to a point where disobedience can be a kind of stupidity as it gains little or nothing and costs so much, even everything. A refusal to obey a stop sign or a red light costs you your life. Does this make stop signs and traffic signals bad, evil or selfish? Surely not.

Liberty is the freedom to do what is right, just and best. As our understanding increases and our knowledge is perfected, the path becomes narrower and clearer; however, this is what we wanted the whole time. Doubt, confusion and uncertainty are not pleasant. Suffering is not enjoyable; but being ignorant of the reason or cause of the suffering is even more painful. A reasonable man finds himself unhappy and he can’t figure out why. He knows he should be more or less happy and grateful in life but he notwithstanding finds himself slipping into a kind of malaise and unhappiness. Why? He has a job and a career and a house and good money and lots of friends and family. So what gives? If he lives in a society that prizes and honours success in material things and self-indulgence then the cause of his unhappiness is likely that he is realizing satisfying himself alone is not the highest good, that love and charity is better, and he is likely lonely and wants someone to share in his life and his successes and joys (and trials and tribulations). He likely wants a family. But if he doesn’t know or understand this, he might end up at a psychiatrist’s office and popping pills to dim his wits and pacify his restlessness for a while. A pill making for him a substitute for a wife, a family and children.

 

[spiderweb]

I have read it over and over again on these forums…that God created us to love Him, and to be Obedient. That we must “serve” Him.

Then its said we have free will.

That we can “choose” not to serve Him or be obedient.

But then we are punished. So its not really free will. We didn’t have free will in whether we wanted to exist in the first place. So we are thrust into this situation without choice, created pawns in a game of “Do what I say, or Burn eternally”.

There are good people who sin…but there is such rigidity in Catholicism and what it teaches, that if you don’t follow the prescribed steps exactly, then you are doomed to Hell.

We are essentially dogs. We either heel, or get slapped by the Master with a newspaper, only that slapping goes on forever.

Holiness is supposedly what brings us “true happiness”. If that were so, then why isn’t it so obvious to everyone that they’d want to pursue it?

It seems to me that you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. It is not a Master/Slave relationship, rather it is a Father/Son or Daughter relationship. We have free will to choose whether we will love God (the Creator) or love something else (the created including ourselves) more.

If we do not love God, than I think it would be a greater punishment to be with him for eternity. Think of someone who you just can’t stand to be around for whatever reason and then imagine yourself having to be with this person forever every second of the day. Very sinful people are generally very uncomfortable being around very holy people. This is true here on earth, how much more would a very sinful person not want to be in the prescence of the infinitely holy God.

As created beings our true fulfillment comes from living out what we were created for. A clock that doesn’t keep the right time does not fullfill it’s purpose. A person that does not love God also does not fulfill it’s purpose or reason for existence. God created us to be happy with him in heaven and the only way to fullfill that purpose is to love him. In loving him we will obey him. There are people in everyones life that we are willing to go out of our way to please them even if it causes some sort of sacrifice on our part. Is it too much of God to ask us to do the same for him?

In human society we have government laws, state laws, parents make laws for their children, etc. Primarily these laws are for the good of the people and for their protection and wellbeing. The same goes for Gods laws. His laws are for our own wellbeing and protection. Even if we don’t understand or even if we disagree with them, nevertheless they are there for our wellbeing and protection. Example: a 5 year old child doesn’t understand why his parents tell him not to take candy from strangers, but as he gets older and matures he understands these laws were for his own protection even if he disagreed with them as a child because he wanted the candy. In serving and obeying God’s laws we are simply doing what is best for us. It would obviously be better if we did it out of love and understanding, nevertheless simply by "dumb obedience’ we are still fullfilling the reason for which we were made. A parent would like the child to understand all the reasons, but even if they don’t the parent is happy and satisfied that they just obey for the childs own wellbeing.

Jesus was willing to suffer excruciating pain and death for no other reason than to prove his love for us and to repair the break in the relationship of God and man. There is no Master that would be willing to do that for a slave or dog. That is a very wrong perception of God.

As for the rigidity in the Catholic Church, that really should be a different topic that you should expand on and explain what you mean when you say that.

Holiness is basicly conforming our own will to the will of God. What he wants, becomes what we want. As the scriptures say “we must die to ourselves”. This is very difficult for most people to do. We want to say “let my will be done”. Instead of saying “God let your will be done.” This can only be accomplished by using our own free will and saying “God I love you so much that I am willing to do anything for you, even suffering and dieing for you if it comes to that.” This is extremely difficult for many people to understand, let alone actually do. Nevertheless this is the way to true joy and happiness for eternity in fulfilling what we were created as (son or daughter of God) and for (to spend eternity in his divine family).

 

[ThinkingSapien]

But then we are punished. So its not really free will.

As used in these forums free will only refers to the ability to make a decision, not the consequences of that decision (even if some form of coercion is involved). If some one has knowledge that she will be punished for doing “the right thing” she is still able to use her free will to decide to do it. If you are fully convinced I will if you don’t do what I say you still have free will to decide to not do as I say.

This differs from how you may see the term “free will” used in general conversation, in which it is used to refer to a decision that was made in the absence of possibly coercive elements.

 

[ffg]

Interesting thread, thanks for starting.

One thing to consider as you do your thinking is to understand feelings are fleeting.

Many people who enter marriage, quickly complain of not ‘feeling love’ for their spouse.

It’s because what they think love is, is really not.

Love is not a feeling, it’s action. Many times it doesn’t have a good feeling - Look at Jesus.

Those confident here might be so out of the action they are taking and the graces they see in their lives.

A lot of unbelievers don’t do so because they want / are waiting to see something, when in reality, we will see when we ‘do’.

If we wait, God waits, if we move, God moves us.

Oh and I surely wouldn’t compare the logic of a 5 year old to the logic of an adult, it’s nowhere near the same (even with a ‘but flipped’ assumption).

We are all still learning and journey-ing. We are all sinners and hope for mercy.

 

[JM3]

But do we have “Free Will” to be conceived? NO. Of course not.

How can you have free will before you exist? (Is this a logical fallacy?)

Does the free will of your parents have any place in your reasoning?

CCC 1853…The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will

 

[guiltyofdoubt]

How can you have free will before you exist? (Is this a logical fallacy?)

Does the free will of your parents have any place in your reasoning?

CCC 1853…The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will

That’s my point…you cannot.

You come into this world through no fault of your own.

The world is “fallen” through no fault of your own.

You live a life here with billions of other people, and the majority are not Christian. Maybe in your community they are, but not globally.

So how are we to know The Truth?

If you are a Christian of Faith, then in your heart you believe. But Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, it is said. So perhaps we all don’t have that gift?

Just saying “I Believe” doesn’t make it so in your heart, and I can honestly say I would find it impossible not to look at beautiful women lustfully.

And that is Adultery…just looking with that perspective…let alone masturbation or whatever.

If you aren’t like that, God Bless You. Good for you. I “enjoy” being “like that”. What I don’t enjoy is the threat that looms over me because I enjoy something I see as innocuous. But that’s the problem, isn’t it? According to Catholicism, the way “I feel” about something isn’t supposed to matter. The rules are the rules.

A parent may require the child to obey for their safety, but at some point that changes. At some point you are no longer under their authority. The Government requires you obey at the risk of penalty…losing money or freedom. This is so society remains civilized. But the penalties for disobeying the Government vary. You are not imprisoned for life for running a stop sign, as a murderer might be. Such is not the case with the various mortal sins, which reason tells you are not the same in severity, yet we are condemned ETERNALLY for all of them.

As a sinner, I have no problem being with “Holy” people. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable, nor do I want to be separated from God. But I also would like to enjoy my time on Earth, as there is very little of it, and I enjoy my “sins”. I am not killing somebody. i am not stealing another’s property. I am committing if anything, a sin against my own body. I find that kind of sin the most unreasonable of all. Not that my opinion matter sin the slightest to The Church, which is another problem of mine. I don’t like being regarded as simply a slave to what’s supposedly “right”, or a condemned sinner. The Church puts me in that position based on my behavior. It brings me no comfort, and hurts my ability to have faith because of the seeming lack of logic.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As a sinner, I have no problem being with “Holy” people. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable, nor do I want to be separated from God. But I also would like to enjoy my time on Earth, as there is very little of it, and** I enjoy my “sins”**.

Does it not occur to you that Satan is whispering in your ears? “Enjoy me!”

The way for Satan to kill our souls is to convince us that what we are doing against God is “innocuous.” After all, he lied to Adam and Eve. Why should he lie to you?