Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[GratefulFred]

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

She cites John 14: 13-14 “And whatever [forgiveness for example] you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything [forgiveness for example] of me in my name, I will do it.”

She avoids discussing John 20: 21-23 - [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

But I also read these passages:

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18: 15-17 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

Matthew 18: 32-35 "His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”

---

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

 

[MysticalSelah]

She avoids discussing John 20: 21-23 - [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Why does she avoid discussing this verse? I would personally ask her what her thoughts on it are. It’s a hard verse to ignore.

Here are some quotes from the Early Church Fathers as well:

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

There are more here: catholic.com/tract/confession

You can find more of the same here too: stsophiaukrainian.cc/resources/ecfonconfession/

Let her know that these were the very early Christians, many of whom were disciples of the apostles themselves.

 

[pablope]

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

She cites John 14: 13-14 “And whatever [forgiveness for example] you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything [forgiveness for example] of me in my name, I will do it.”

She avoids discussing John 20: 21-23 - [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

But I also read these passages:

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18: 15-17 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

Matthew 18: 32-35 "His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”

---

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

Have her read 1john9 first:

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The passage states, we have to confess our sins to be forgiven.

Then direct her to this passages: Heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

So…ask her if she has stopped sinning or does she still commit sin?

Heb 10:

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

As the passage says, we need to persevere to the end. So I would ask your friend if she can confidently and absolutely say she has not sinned and if she can persevere to the end without sinning?

 

[jcrichton]

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

She cites John 14: 13-14 “And whatever [forgiveness for example] you ask in my name…”

She avoids John 20: 21-23 -

But I also read these passages:

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18: 15-17 “If your brother* sins [against you],… If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

Matthew 18: 32-35 "His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant!..

---

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

Hi!, Fred!

…your friend has converted to one of those “sola” creeds… as you’ve pointed out she refuses to engage whatever Scriptures would short-circuit her new found faith base.

…could you imagine Jesus being a charlatan or a simpleton?

…well according to your friend (and those who believe as she) He is… since only a charlatan and a simpleton would insist on Founding a Church and Delegating to her the Authority to Forgive sins or not and to Bind things or not:

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

(St. Matthew 16:18-19)

20:23 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
’ (St. John 20:23)
What did the Apostles Believe? Did they think Jesus was talking just to hear Himself speak or did they think it was some mumbo jumbo figure of speech thing?

Did the Apostles Believe that they should go around loosening and binding sins/things/people as their whims dictated?:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(1 St. John 1:6-10)

1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 St. John 2:1-2)
…so the Apostles Believe that Jesus is the expiation for their sins… but not just theirs but of the whole world… so do they Believe that anyone can just quote Scriptures and claim Jesus cleansed all their sins (BC through AD)?

Did you catch the term “fellowship?”

It is in Fellowship with Christ that this works… which means that we go back to Christ’s Delegation of Authority… do the Apostles think that all Believers have the power to send sinners away crystal clean?:

14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

(St. James 5:14-16)
…so it is in Christ’s Fellowship that things take place… and it is through the intercession of the Priests that the Sacraments gain function!

Note the order of things: sick, call the Priest, anoint, Absolve sins… St. James hammers in: Confess your sins…

St. James does not state: ‘let Christ, Who Is God, Heal and Absolve…’ nor does he state: ‘Confess your sins to Christ.’

…as for the “clause” in “Our Father,” she misses the point: “forgive us as we forgive” which to me means that God will use our own measure to dispense His Mercy.

…and I concur with you, I’ve not notice the Church emphasizing that we must forgive others to receive God’s Absolution… yet, I think that that is one of those unwritten…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

Hi, Fred! Would you find value in a response from a non-Catholic?

Whether or not she accepts “having a priest forgive her sins”, I really hope she agrees that, even in Catholicism, it is GOD who ultimately forgives our sins.

The danger in going too far into the “Christ-died-for-sins-once-for-all”, is if one decays into permissiveness (Antinomianism/Gnosticism). Whether we confess to a priest, or to God, or to God through a priest, implied in 1Jn1:9 is “repentance”.

Shall we be forgiven our sins if we keep committing the same sin? There would be no repentance in that. See Heb10:26-29, 1Cor10:12-13 (really 1-13), and others…

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

She cites John 14: 13-14 “And whatever [forgiveness for example] you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything [forgiveness for example] of me in my name, I will do it.”

She avoids discussing John 20: 21-23 - [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

As a non-Catholic, I perceive Catholics would agree that “the sins we forgive are forgiven”, if that happens in agreement with Scriptural repentance-of-the-sinner. Does anyone disagree with that?

“Repentance”, is a 180 degree reversal. It does not fit with “asking forgiveness today, then repeating the same sin tomorrow and asking forgiveness again, then repeating the same sin the next day…”

But I also read these passages:

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

This is offenses committed against us. We were born with nothing; we die the same. Shall we hold offenses against those who have harmed us, when God has forgiven each of US so much?

Matthew 18: 15-17 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

For the church, to tolerate an unrepentant repeat-offender would sow dissension and sinfulness to others…

Matthew 18: 32-35 "His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”

See two paragraphs back. Add to this Matt25 — “Inasmuch as you do this to the least of My brothers, you do it to Me.”

You and I belong to JESUS. Therefore, no one can do harm to us; they can only harm JESUS. We can forgive someone in that we let go of them and give them to Christ; if they repent some day He will forgive them, if they don’t He will judge them. This frees us from holding the ANGER in our hearts – which would allow our enemies to keep hurting us (no one deserves that power!), and like an acid would slowly erode our own hearts.

You are not your own; you are bought with a price. This world will be done away with, store not treasure HERE, but store treasure to delight in before Jesus.

…And MY greatest treasure to cherish forever before Jesus, Fred, would be you as a brother. Brothers and sisters in Christ are the treasure I can take with me!

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

Two kinds of forgiveness – for those who are truly sorry for hurting us, we are bound to forgive unconditionally. For those who are NOT sorry, it is as above – release them to Jesus, and let HIM deal with them. We are not accountants of others’ sins! He is so much better at that, than we are…

 

[Gadgeteer]

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).

pablope:

Then direct her to this passages: Heb 10:

(citation Heb10:26-27)

So…ask her if she has stopped sinning or does she still commit sin?

Heb 10:

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

As the passage says, we need to persevere to the end. So I would ask your friend if she can confidently and absolutely say she has not sinned and if she can persevere to the end without sinning?

jcrichton:

What did the Apostles Believe? Did they think Jesus was talking just to hear Himself speak or did they think it was some mumbo jumbo figure of speech thing?

Did the Apostles Believe that they should go around loosening and binding sins/things/people as their whims dictated?:
(citation 1 St. John 1:6-10)
(citation 1 St. John 2:1-2)

…so the Apostles Believe that Jesus is the expiation for their sins… but not just theirs but of the whole world… so do they Believe that anyone can just quote Scriptures and claim Jesus cleansed all their sins (BC through AD)?

Did you catch the term “fellowship?”

It is in Fellowship with Christ that this works… which means that we go back to Christ’s Delegation of Authority… do the Apostles think that all Believers have the power to send sinners away crystal clean?:

(citation St. James 5:14-16)
…so it is in Christ’s Fellowship that things take place… and it is through the intercession of the Priests that the Sacraments gain function!

Fred, notice that the others here (Catholic) have said the same thing that I (non-Catholic) said. Christianity at its core is fellowship with Christ – a true union between two people. We cannot be “unrepentantly-in-Christ”, for He indwells the believer, and will not participate in sin.

The word I missed previous post is “absolve”; we have the power to absolve those who hurt us – if they repent of course we do. If they do NOT repent of their harm it would be silly to absolve them; here the “second forgiveness” plays, we simply release them to God.

Heb6:36 was correctly cited; we persevere in Christ, because the only OTHER location in the Universe is “in sin”. We are either in Christ (walking in repentance, striving BY HIS POWER not to sin), or we are in sin (Rom6). Jesus’ and the Spirit’s power overcome our sin – the closer we draw to Him, the farther we are from sin.

It’s all “fellowship in Christ”.
“Father, eternal life is knowing You, and Me (Jesus).” Jn17:3
“Our FELLOWSHIP is with the Father and His Son.” 1Jn1:3
“He who has the Son has eternal life; …you may know!” 1Jn5:11-13

 

[Todd977]

The sacraments are ordinarily necessary but not absolutely necessary, including the sacrament of confession. They are gifts from God to help us in our weakness. With respect to serious sins that Christians commit, i.e. sins after baptism, a sinner’s act of perfect contrition, i.e., contrition motivated by love of God, is sufficient to obtain forgiveness of sins. However, if the sinner’s contrition is imperfect, i.e., contrition motivated by some reason other than the love God, then it is not sufficient to obtain forgiveness of sins. Since we are not the best judge of the quality of our own contrition, there is a possibility that we might presume that our contrition is perfect when it is actually only imperfect. Such a presumption that our sins are forgiven when they are not could have dire eternal consequences. So, God gave us the gift of the sacrament of confession as a safeguard against presumption and entrusted his ministers of reconciliation with the authority to forgive sins in God’s name, even if the sinner’s contrition is not perfect.

Purgatory, too, is a gift from God. It allows the effects of Christ’s death on the cross to make us perfectly holy, if we die in God’s friendship but not perfectly holy at time of our death. There may be some soul’s who leave this life perfectly holy but for the rest of us, who die in God’s friendship but have not yet attained “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord,” there will be a final sanctification, which Catholic’s call Purgatory, before we see God.

 

[animalis]

It is meritorious that you understand that the bible is understood as a coherent whole. We cannot take a verse in consideration without the Magisterium. We cannot possibly think they are wrong in faith and morals, or else we sin.

“The Cross of Christ is the firm point in the midst of the world’s changes and upheavals.” (Homily, Benedict XVI, 10-9-11) When offenses contradict our inner peace the cross is the only object worth obtaining unless we neglect heaven. Just because a soul goes to confession and has forgiveness, does not mean it will have the strength to continue to receive any of the sacraments. Hence, it is important to forgive others and further to “Be perfect” (Mt 5:48).

The world is imperfect but we are called not to be of the world and be perfect in the Cross of Christ. Par excellence, the Cross is found by the seeker who goes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Fred! Would you find value in a response from a non-Catholic?

Whether or not she accepts “having a priest forgive her sins”, I really hope she agrees that, even in Catholicism, it is GOD who ultimately forgives our sins.

The danger in going too far into the “Christ-died-for-sins-once-for-all”, is if one decays into permissiveness (Antinomianism/Gnosticism). Whether we confess to a priest, or to God, or to God through a priest, implied in 1Jn1:9 is “repentance”.

Shall we be forgiven our sins if we keep committing the same sin? There would be no repentance in that. See Heb10:26-29, 1Cor10:12-13 (really 1-13), and others…

“Repentance”, is a 180 degree reversal. It does not fit with “asking forgiveness today, then repeating the same sin tomorrow and asking forgiveness again, then repeating the same sin the next day…”

Hi!

…it is the reason why some go to the deep end/s… Luther wrote (it is claimed as an opinion in a “personal correspondence”–though I suggest it reflects his frame of mind) that he could commit adultery ten thousand times in a day with no consequence to his Eternal Status since Jesus already paid the price for all sin… his emphasis was not “Repentance” but “done and done!”

I’ve encounter "Christians (both Catholics and non-Catholics) that actually believe that abusing drugs and other destructive and immoral acts do not in the least hurt their Status (Grace: Salvation)–with the Catholics, they seem to imply that even if they do not sincerely Repent but simply avail themselves of the Sacrament of Confession… they’re in the clear!

…yeah, forget Apostolic Teaching… just go with the flow…

As a non-Catholic, I perceive Catholics would agree that “the sins we forgive are forgiven”, if that happens in agreement with Scriptural repentance-of-the-sinner.

Does anyone disagree with that?
The Church clearly Teaches that it is in agreement with Scriptures and Apostolic Teaching (Church Doctrine).

You and I belong to JESUS. Therefore, no one can do harm to us; they can only harm JESUS. We can forgive someone in that we let go of them and give them to Christ;

if they repent some day He will forgive them, if they don’t He will judge them. This frees us from holding the ANGER in our hearts – which would allow our enemies to keep hurting us (no one deserves that power!), and like an acid would slowly erode our own hearts.

You are not your own; you are bought with a price. This world will be done away with, store not treasure HERE, but store treasure to delight in before Jesus.
I concur with you that if we allow the transgressions against us to fester and foment in our heart it erodes our physical and spiritual wellbeing… it is the understanding of the Apostles:

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak ye the truth every man with his neighbour; for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry, and sin not. Let not the sun go down upon your anger. 27 Give not place to the devil…

29 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ.

(Ephesians 4:25-32)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

The sacraments are ordinarily necessary but not absolutely necessary, including the sacrament of confession. They are gifts from God to help us in our weakness. With respect to serious sins that Christians commit, i.e. sins after baptism, a sinner’s act of perfect contrition, i.e., contrition motivated by love of God, is sufficient to obtain forgiveness of sins. However, if the sinner’s contrition is imperfect, i.e., contrition motivated by some reason other than the love God, then it is not sufficient to obtain forgiveness of sins. Since we are not the best judge of the quality of our own contrition…

Hi, Todd. What would be the circumstance where one “would not know if his contrition is because he loves God, or if it’s from some selfish reason”?

…there is a possibility that we might presume that our contrition is perfect when it is actually only imperfect. Such a presumption that our sins are forgiven when they are not could have dire eternal consequences. So, God gave us the gift of the sacrament of confession as a safeguard against presumption and entrusted his ministers of reconciliation with the authority to forgive sins in God’s name, even if the sinner’s contrition is not perfect.

As a non-Catholic, I see no problem with “confession to another”. I think we agree it’s God who forgives sins, so “sacrament-of-confession” would be in addition to confessing directly to God.

Purgatory, too, is a gift from God. It allows the effects of Christ’s death on the cross to make us perfectly holy, if we die in God’s friendship but not perfectly holy at time of our death. There may be some soul’s who leave this life perfectly holy but for the rest of us, who die in God’s friendship but have not yet attained “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord,” there will be a final sanctification, which Catholic’s call Purgatory, before we see God.

Not to be argumentative, but for my own information — how are we sanctified, before death? I read 1Cor6:11:

“…you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Hagiazō — aorist passive indicative. “Done deal”, statement of fact.
(King James, “you are sanctified”.)

For my own information about what you believe — what would we have to do in Purgatory, to “gain additional sanctification”? Aren’t we sanctified by Jesus’ blood, shed on the Cross?

“,it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment”, Heb9:27

Apokeimai — “appointed”, reserved. Where would Purgatory occur?

If you will honor me by allowing me to see through your eyes how you understand these, I will be grateful. Not wanting to fight or argue, but to understand.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…it is the reason why some go to the deep end/s… Luther wrote (it is claimed as an opinion in a “personal correspondence”–though I suggest it reflects his frame of mind) that he could commit adultery ten thousand times in a day with no consequence to his Eternal Status since Jesus already paid the price for all sin… his emphasis was not “Repentance” but “done and done!”

Well, with respect — Luther was an idiot. Rather, he was Scripturally (and spiritually!) ignorant.


Paul perhaps said it best in Rom6:1ff, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live in it?!”

I’ve encounter "Christians (both Catholics and non-Catholics) that actually believe that abusing drugs and other destructive and immoral acts do not in the least hurt their Status (Grace: Salvation)–with the Catholics, they seem to imply that even if they do not sincerely Repent but simply avail themselves of the Sacrament of Confession… they’re in the clear!

You and I (and most here I wager), know better. 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 all say "Those WHO do these things, shall not inherit".

I don’t think “shall-not-inherit” is really negotiable!!!

…yeah, forget Apostolic Teaching… just go with the flow…

As if…

"…the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. " Matt7:13

THAT is where “the flow” is going!

(I’m positive you were thinking of that exact verse!)

The Church clearly Teaches that it is in agreement with Scriptures and Apostolic Teaching (Church Doctrine).

Well, I was more saying “if we forgive someone’s sins, then there is an assumption that the person is repentant before God”.

I concur with you that if we allow the transgressions against us to fester and foment in our heart it erodes our physical and spiritual wellbeing… it is the understanding of the Apostles:

Nicely quoted, once again. You are wise!

 

[pablope]

Hi, Todd. What would be the circumstance where one “would not know if his contrition is because he loves God, or if it’s from some selfish reason”?

 

[Della]

There seems to be more than one issue here, not merely whether or not we “need” to confess our sins to a priest.

Firstly, we do not need to confess our venial sins to a priest to be forgiven, only mortal ones, so that fallacy should be laid to rest.

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

She is misunderstanding what Christ’s redemptive death and resurrection obtained for us. It made it possible for us to be forgiven–it didn’t automatically forgive anyone of anything. We need to seek God’s forgiveness as he offers it to us, not invent our own ways of doing that merely because we don’t things the way God has laid them out.

As for our beliefs that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, there are ones she certainly does believe that are not there, either. Such as the Christ’s hypostatic union as fully God and fully man, or the nature of the Trinity, etc. These beliefs were hammered out in Church councils centuries after the last Apostle died and before the NT had been formally approved. So, really basing beliefs on what is explicitly stated in the Bible is another fallacy she needs to be disabused of.

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

She cites John 14: 13-14 “And whatever [forgiveness for example] you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything [forgiveness for example] of me in my name, I will do it.”

She avoids discussing John 20: 21-23 - [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

But I also read these passages:

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18: 15-17 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

Matthew 18: 32-35 "His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”

---

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

Well, she quotes verses and then reads into them what she wants to believe. That’s one of the dangers of sola scriptura. As for us having to forgive others before God will forgive us, certainly we are to do so as an act of our will, even if we don’t feel like or have any desire to do it. I’m not sure if a confessor has the authority to make forgiving one’s offender a condition for him granting absolution. After all, we go to confession to confess our own sins, not discuss the sins other may have committed against us.

 

[jcrichton]

Well, with respect — Luther was an idiot. Rather, he was Scripturally (and spiritually!) ignorant.


Paul perhaps said it best in Rom6:1ff, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live in it?!”

Hi!

…I’m not anti-scholar/theologian… but I’ve noticed that even these “elite” fall short of the Grace of Humility… they allow the thirst for Knowledge and the self-adulation (pat on the back) dissolve their ability to discern God’s Revelation (Inspiration and Guidance from the Holy Spirit) from eisegesis.

How much more clearer could St. Paul have been?

You and I (and most here I wager), know better. 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 all say "Those WHO do these things, shall not inherit".

I don’t think “shall-not-inherit” is really negotiable!!!
…and there’s not a single excuse (passages such as these are often turned around to mean that the Apostles are addressing the non-Believers/sinners)–yet, the Apostles are specifically addressing us, all the Believers (St. John 17:15-20):

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

(1 Corinthians 6:1-3)

"…the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. " Matt7:13

THAT is where “the flow” is going!

(I’m positive you were thinking of that exact verse!)
Correct… I’ve often coupled that passage with the maxim: ‘going to hell in a hand-woven basket;’ it’s quite an interesting visual!

Well, I was more saying "if we forgive someone’s sins, then there is an assumption

that the person is repentant before God".
…I just wanted to touch all bases… since Catholic Theology does operate from a Priest viewpoint.

Nicely quoted, once again. You are wise!

Thank you for your generous and kind words.

…this is what I mean about loving Scriptures… they pop in my mind as I read/listen… and I seek to present them as effectively as possible–for me it’s like speaking/writing in a poetic syntax… though using the Word, as I Believe the Holy Spirit Guides us!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

As with King David before…it is convicting oneself of sin, not ifs and buts or rationalizing sin…that we have sinned and want to confess.

The “application-of-that-work-of-Christ”, is the issue. (More below…)
Scott Hahn:

But that distinction is going to be crucial from the beginning of our time today until the end that Christ has accomplished our redemption. It’s over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential. We don’t have a binary deity, the Father and the Son We have a trinitery deity, a family a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “I come to baptize with fire and spirit.” And so, when the Spirit comes at Pentecost, tongues of fire appear, and whenever the Holy Spirit appears, there is Holy Fire. When we are taken up into the Spirit, there we are consumed with a passionate, burning love, the furnace of Christ’s heart, the reality of the Holy Spirit, the fiery love of God.

Scott quotes Matt3:11, but misses verse 12. John speaks of “three baptisms” (immersions) — first, baptism of water for repentance; second baptism in the Spirit. And third verse 12 explains that the “baptism-of-fire”, is burning the chaff with unquenchable fire. The grain (us saved saints!) will be gathered, but the wicked (chaff!) will be cast into Gehenna the fiery lake.

So, after reading the explanations on the 3 states of way…would you mind sharing where you fall in the three states?

Thank you for asking! Like Scott, I acknowledge that Jesus finished our redemption, sufficient and complete from the Cross. Verses like 1Cor6:11 portray washing (regeneration), and sanctification, and justification, as “completed past events”. Where my understanding harmonizes with Catholic understanding, is that all of these reflect a position in which we must abide — rather, in WHOM we must abide.

Can a saved person die, incompletely sanctified? Consider the man in Heb10:29 – he once was sanctified by Jesus’ blood, but now scorns that precious blood; he tramples Jesus whom he once cherished, and insults the Spirit whom he once embraced.

Where do people live? There are only two real-estates — in Christ, or in sin. Jesus said (Jn8) “unless you believe …you will die in your sins”. Which sins did Jesus not nail to the Cross? All of them. Yes, all of them provisionally – sins are gone for all of who surrender their sins to Him. (Those who “die in their sins”, do NOT have their sins nailed to His Cross, they are still stained!)

John said (1:1:9) …“He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness”. Here is where “OSAS” is so dangerous – we the saved are not sinless, but we do not WALK in sin. If we sin (1Jn1:8 says we will!), it only shows us we are not as close to Jesus as we should be.

Cleansed from all unrighteousness; not “some”, and not “most” – all. But we still sin; if we die with some sins (or any) unconfessed, are we in trouble? “Repentance” is a walk; when we-saved sin, our Spirit-filled hearts convict us, and we repent – and truly pursue His presence so that we not REPEAT the sin.

 

[Gadgeteer]

So, after reading the explanations on the 3 states of way…would you mind sharing where you fall in the three states?

Purgative Way:

In a word, the distinctive notes of this state are war against those temptations which entice the soul to sin

This reflects what Paul experienced in Romans7. “I try to do right, but I find myself doing the very wrong I do not wish to do. Wretched man that I am, who will save me from this war within my members?” But many do not realize Rom7 cannot be read alone, and it is not a state we’re supposed to inhabit! Romans 7 is part of a SANDWICH formed by chapters 6, 7, and 8!

• Rom6 – explanation of “born-again”, begotten of God
• Rom7 – war between the old sin-nature, and the new begotten spiritual nature
• Rom8 – the SOLUTION to the war! We do not walk after fleshly sinfulness, but after the Spirit

Rom8:12-13 states that if we walk after the flesh we must die; but if we exploit the Spirit’s power to overcome our flesh, we live. For we have received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry “Abba! Father!” (Daddy!) Chapter EIGHT is where we’re supposed to live!
The Unitive Way:

It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of “perfect charity”, because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue. It is called the “unitive” way because it is by love that the soul is united to God, and the more perfect the charity, the closer and more intimate is the union.

“Souls have reached that state”? The book I’ve written is argumentative; but the argument behind the argument is “what exactly IS salvation”?

John says (1:5:11-13) “he who has Jesus has life; he who does not have Jesus does not have eternal life.” And in 1:1:3 “our FELLOWSHIP is with the Father and His Son”.

Many of us fail to realize the import of Gal2:20 — “I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.” Is this a desirable (but not really necessary) goal? Or is it central to this thing we call “Christianity”?

How long does a soul take to realize this “union-nature-of-salvation”, and pursue and reach intimate fellowship with Christ? A year? Twenty? A lifetime? Isn’t it really about as long as it has taken to read this post?

James says (ch4), “Resist the devil and he will flee; submit yourselves to God. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Humble yourselves before God, and He will exalt you.” THIS then is our triumph over sin! Not in fighting the sin, or even dwelling on it – but drawing ever nearer to HIM so that there is no ROOM in us for sin! It’s our faith, but it’s His power! Our abiding in Him, His strength in us!

2Cor13:5 says, “Test yourselves, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith; do you not realize this, Christ is in you, unless you fail the test?” (adokimos are disqualified) How do we test ourselves? We examine our fruit! EXACTLY as Peter said in 1:1:5-11! As Jesus said in Matt7:16-18! And as James said in chapter 2.

Sins do not condemn us to Hell; unbelief does (1Jn5:10). LACK of sins does not save us! When we are “judged according to our deeds”, good deeds either expose a heart that was indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit, or evil deeds expose a heart that did NOT believe, and was NOT indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit.

So that would be “where I fall in the states”; we are united with Christ through His death, and united with Him in resurrection. Our old selves die, and we are new creations (2Cor5:17). AND – we must “put to death our old sinful selves daily, and put on the new righteous spiritual man” (Eph4:22-24, Col3:9-10). As we have received Christ, we must WALK IN Him, Col2:6-8.

What do you think, Pablope? Are you and I really that far apart in understanding?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Rev 21: 27 says nothing unclean shall enter heaven…Purgartory is for futher cleansing before entering heaven

More here…catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/purgatory-holy-fire.html

What I would like to happen here, is for all of us to come to an agreement. Not on whether or not Puragory exists — but rather, if we all would consider the possibility that it may not exist. Therefore, salvation takes on a greater urgency.

"Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION” 2Cor6:2

satan uses straightforward lies. All three views of Once Saved Always Saved are simply reflecting the First Lie that satan told Eve, in the Garden — “Don’t worry, you won’t really die.”

Perhaps the Second Great Lie, is — “Oh go have fun now, you can always repent later.”

…but some people find themselves driving in traffic and realize that oncoming car IS IN THEIR LANE COMING RIGHT AT THEM!!!

And all they have time to say, is “OH!” It may be an oncoming car, a heart-attack (I had a friend who was racing motorcycles, but was DEAD yards before his cycle crossed the finish line!), it may be anything else sudden!

Now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation. Whether Purgatory is God’s plan or not, shall we place Him of such lesser importance that we put Him off until tomorrow? Tomorrow is not guaranteed!

And – in satan’s “Second Great Lie”, do we really have fun WITHOUT Him?

“These things have I told you, that My joy may be in you, and YOUR JOY BE MADE FULL!!!” John15:11

He is our joy, He is our strength and our song (Psalm118:14). Put Him off today to go have the fun of sin, and we discover the bitter end of sin – it isn’t fun! And tomorrow may never come, we may have unwittingly put Him off FOREVER. May it never be!

Now is the time, today is the day. Now begins our eternity! For those who belong to Jesus, there IS no SECOND COMING — for we are already in His presence and the joy of His fellowship NOW, just as much as when He returns PHYSICALLY! It will be no different for us when He comes, we will exult in Him being here physically (and ending all of the corruption and pain in the world), but we CONTINUE with what we have had all along!

(Is it acceptable in the world of Catholicism for someone to say, “amen”?)

 

[Gadgeteer]

There seems to be more than one issue here, not merely whether or not we “need” to confess our sins to a priest.

Firstly, we do not need to confess our venial sins to a priest to be forgiven, only mortal ones, so that fallacy should be laid to rest.

She is misunderstanding what Christ’s redemptive death and resurrection obtained for us. It made it possible for us to be forgiven–it didn’t automatically forgive anyone of anything. We need to seek God’s forgiveness as he offers it to us, not invent our own ways of doing that merely because we don’t things the way God has laid them out.

As for our beliefs that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, there are ones she certainly does believe that are not there, either. Such as the Christ’s hypostatic union as fully God and fully man, or the nature of the Trinity, etc. These beliefs were hammered out in Church councils centuries after the last Apostle died and before the NT had been formally approved. So, really basing beliefs on what is explicitly stated in the Bible is another fallacy she needs to be disabused of.

Hi, Della. I do see these things spelled out in Scripture. Yes, “tri-unity” is a term invented by us; but – “there is only one God”, and “Jesus is God and has always existed” are Scriptural and only a tri-unity fits.

Well, she quotes verses and then reads into them what she wants to believe. That’s one of the dangers of sola scriptura. As for us having to forgive others before God will forgive us, certainly we are to do so as an act of our will, even if we don’t feel like or have any desire to do it. I’m not sure if a confessor has the authority to make forgiving one’s offender a condition for him granting absolution. After all, we go to confession to confess our own sins, not discuss the sins other may have committed against us.

Isn’t our ability to forgive others (even our enemies who do NOT repent of how they have hurt us), really a reflection of how real He is to us? You and I were born with nothing; everything here is “on loan”. Do we need anything from anyone except knowing that Jesus loved us and died for us?

I’m still in awe about Corrie Tenboom’s story (recounted in the movie, “The Hiding Place”). Her parents were taken from her. Her home and all possessions. She watched her sister die of TB. And yet, all she had for others, was LOVE. Even for the Nazis who were committing the outrages.

When Corrie was “accidentally” released, days before women of her class were executed, one woman whispered — “Corrie, I want Him!” Corrie smiled lovingly, and said: “Just ask, He’s always there!”

May I overcome pride and selfishness, and be filled enough with Jesus, to be the same example…

 

[Della]

What I would like to happen here, is for all of us to come to an agreement. Not on whether or not Puragory exists — but rather, if we all would consider the possibility that it may not exist. Therefore, salvation takes on a greater urgency.

"Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION” 2Cor6:2

satan uses straightforward lies. All three views of Once Saved Always Saved are simply reflecting the First Lie that satan told Eve, in the Garden — “Don’t worry, you won’t really die.”

Perhaps the Second Great Lie, is — “Oh go have fun now, you can always repent later.”

…but some people find themselves driving in traffic and realize that oncoming car IS IN THEIR LANE COMING RIGHT AT THEM!!!

And all they have time to say, is “OH!” It may be an oncoming car, a heart-attack (I had a friend who was racing motorcycles, but was DEAD yards before his cycle crossed the finish line!), it may be anything else sudden!

Now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation. Whether Purgatory is God’s plan or not, shall we place Him of such lesser importance that we put Him off until tomorrow? Tomorrow is not guaranteed!

And – in satan’s “Second Great Lie”, do we really have fun WITHOUT Him?

“These things have I told you, that My joy may be in you, and YOUR JOY BE MADE FULL!!!” John15:11

He is our joy, He is our strength and our song (Psalm118:14). Put Him off today to go have the fun of sin, and we discover the bitter end of sin – it isn’t fun! And tomorrow may never come, we may have unwittingly put Him off FOREVER. May it never be!

Now is the time, today is the day. Now begins our eternity! For those who belong to Jesus, there IS no SECOND COMING — for we are already in His presence and the joy of His fellowship NOW, just as much as when He returns PHYSICALLY! It will be no different for us when He comes, we will exult in Him being here physically (and ending all of the corruption and pain in the world), but we CONTINUE with what we have had all along!

(Is it acceptable in the world of Catholicism for someone to say, “amen”?)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, but none of this is evidence for or against anything.

I gave up trading biblical references with others on CAF a long time ago for the simple reason that anyone can interpret any verse/passage/book to mean whatever he wants. So, the answer doesn’t lie there. Sola scriptura is a fallacy–mainly because it is historically unsupportable and secondly, because it cannot lead any two groups of people with different interpretations to any agreement.

I could mention authority to interpret Scripture, but that’s another topic for another thread.

I have to ask you who is harmed by believing in purgatory, when the Church teaches that it is a part of heaven? Did you know that? Purgatory isn’t a second chance at salvation. All who are in purgatory are saved. So, there’s no need for the kind of urgency you declare is needed. Catholics are not taught to strive for purgatory, but to strive and contend for heaven, as St. Paul urged us to do.

All we do/receive–our Sacraments, our prayers, our good Christian work, etc., is all aimed at our salvation and that of others. So do not fear for us and for our beliefs. We’re doing just fine as we are, thank you all the same. :tiphat:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…I’m not anti-scholar/theologian… but I’ve noticed that even these “elite” fall short of the Grace of Humility… they allow the thirst for Knowledge and the self-adulation (pat on the back) dissolve their ability to discern God’s Revelation (Inspiration and Guidance from the Holy Spirit) from eisegesis.

Very true – as I’ve said, it is common especially in RT to hear — "I used to believe as you, but then I matured/learned/was-led-by-the-Spirit…"

And yet they’ll still say things like, “backslidden-but-saved”! Uhm, if I am BACKSLIDDEN, there’s only one place I’ve slidden back INTO, and that is SIN. That is not compatible with being “in Christ”!

How much more clearer could St. Paul have been?

…and there’s not a single excuse (passages such as these are often turned around to mean that the Apostles are addressing the non-Believers/sinners)–yet, the Apostles are specifically addressing us, all the Believers (St. John 17:15-20):

That’s right. John wrote his first letter to combat “Gnosticism”, prevalent at the time; in chapter 3, “no one who practices sin knows Him”!

Correct… I’ve often coupled that passage with the maxim: ‘going to hell in a hand-woven basket;’ it’s quite an interesting visual!

It all gets back to how we define our identity – when Jesus becomes real to us, HE is our worth and validation. Without Him we pursue sensuality, materialism, selfishness; these are the paving-stones on that “wide road”…

…I just wanted to touch all bases… since Catholic Theology does operate from a Priest viewpoint.

Understood.

Thank you for your generous and kind words.

:hug3:

…this is what I mean about loving Scriptures… they pop in my mind as I read/listen… and I seek to present them as effectively as possible–for me it’s like speaking/writing in a poetic syntax… though using the Word, as I Believe the Holy Spirit Guides us!

That’s it! The more we “hide the Word in our hearts”, the more dangerous we become for God, before the world!