Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[jcrichton]

Perhaps we can agree on “possess-eternal-life”. You and I know from Scripture we can possess eternal life, and we can turn away from it (from Him!).

The issue is whether he’s saying — “Yes you are saved but you really should turn away from wickedness”…

…or if he’s saying — “You should turn away from wickedness and back to Jesus that you not BE FOUND unsaved, and perish!” (2Pet3:14, James2:26-28, etc!)

Because Paul conspicuously uses words in 1Cor3 like “strife” and “jealousy”, because those very words block a person from salvation in Gal5:19-21, it really has to mean that they should turn back to salvation. Doesn’t it?

Hi!

Yes, Believers, through/in Jesus, possess Eternal Life:

25 Jesus said: ‘I am the resurrection. If anyone believes in me, even though he dies he will live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’

(St. John 11:25-26)
…but, as proven by Scriptures, Believers can fail to abide in Christ even when they make valiant efforts to “defend” the Faith; error can creep in and Believers can push past or fall short of abiding in Christ… St. Paul had to remind them and correct them… he challenged them: ‘Was it Paul that was crucified?’

It is not the error or the failure but the persistence in the error or failure or the obstinacy of claiming error/failure soundness/good.

Sin separates us from God; refusal to correct sin binds us to a life of unrighteousness. St. Paul is cautioning that they are headed into a state of unrighteousness–one from which they may not be able to recover.

No, not at all. Salvation is TWO-FOLD — we are saved now

, we who have Jesus and walk in Him (1Jn5:11-13). And we are BEING saved we who abide in Him 1Cor1:18. “Sōzō” really is in present-passive-participle in 1Cor1:18, “we who are BEING SAVED”!
…and you keep saying you’re not Catholic! (Sorry, could not help it.) This is fully Catholic: Salvation has been gained by Jesus and we are being saved (made holy) through Jesus.

Yes; yet — the battle is for our very (eternal) lives! If we TURN BACK to wickedness, though we are called “immature/milk-eaters”, no way we expect to still waltz through them pearly gates!

Correct… St. Paul puts it as a battle against spiritual principalities and powers–our spiritual survival is at issue.

Salvation is not a process; it was completed long ago:

“IT IS FINISHED!”

It is finished; literally, “tetelestai”, I have CANCELED the debt, it’s a DONE DEAL.

…and, it is a place in which (in Whom!) we must abide!

He who has Jesus has eternal life, you may KNOW. 1Jn5:11-13
BUT — he who goes too far and ceases to abide in the teaching, (no longer) has Jesus. 2Jn1:7-9.
Yes, in Jesus. That’s why God’s Gift of Salvation is never removed while man may still not Inherit the Kingdom through his own willfulness.

Jcrichton, you and I do understand Scripture alike; I have no doubt

you and I are brothers, forever – as are most others here. We shall exult in His presence, as true family, forever!

:grouphug:
It is Christ’s Prayer:

20 I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. 21 May they all be one. Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me.

(St. John 17:20-21)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…welcome back! I thought you took a wrong turn on your way to your favorite coffee house… and then just kept going… :coffeeread:

I think I tried to follow the pizza-delivery-guy, and got lost!

…let’s see; as far as I understand it, Catholics and non-Catholics hold different meanings… we do not believe in “Saved” as something that takes place but as something that is found in Jesus; we are Saved by and in Him; this Salvation is our Hope but not a currency that we own;

But it is a position that we own — “he who has Jesus has eternal life …you may know…” Has it now, present, full certainty…

(That it is something we definitely do possess now, does not mean that we do not have to be diligent to possess it [Him!] tomorrow, and the next day!)

Fellowship is living our lives in Christ… through the Church, His Body, and the Sacraments…

Fellowship is an interaction between two people. Jesus said, “Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me.” (Jn17:3)

Sacraments are fine — even Protestants enjoy sacraments; Scripture seems to teach them as the manifestation (evidence?) of salvation…

a Believer who refuses to repent from sin or who lives a life of sin is not in fellowship with Christ… a Believer can fail/sin; a Believer can reject Christ; if a Believer sins, he/she can regain Grace (be put right with God) through Confession; a Believer that rejects Christ ceases to be a Believer.

If by “confession” you mean “repentance”, then again we agree perfectly. AND – “repentance” is a walk, we walk not in sin. Yes we occasionally sin; and all sin breaks fellowship with Christ. Yet we who walk not in sin, given time (and not very much!) we are convicted of our sin and repent, desperately careful of His presence in us, which sin does end. A Christian is one for whom Jesus’ presence is more vital than the air that he or she breathes…

I concur that there’s but one Name by which we are saved; I also concur that Rom 1:19-20 is sufficient verdict on God’s Revelation to all. I also believe that even those who have never ever heard of Yahweh God or Jesus Christ (not those feign ignorance) can be Saved through the Holy Spirit’s Intercedence.

…wouldn’t that make God the worst of tyrants, forcing those who reject Him to remain in His Control?

Yes! Look at what OSAS does to God’s character!

1. Antinomianism – insults God’s holiness, makes Him hypocritical against sin!
2. Eternal Security – violates “love”, imposes barriers to leaving!
3. RT (Predestined Salvation) – violates “love”, charges God with sin, makes Him a fraud and false judge!

Not only do all three repeat what satan told Eve ("don’t worry you won’t really die!") – all three insult God and impugn His character! Does anyone really think God is not angered? (Matt12:25-31)


…I think here lies “perspective;” to many the prodigal son is not dead and does not cease being a “son” because they view it in God’s eye: His Mercy and Love is never removed from man–God is patiently awaiting the return of the sinner.

Yet, a sinner is not alive–he/she is dead Spiritually.

This is a pure act of the Holy Spirit; He searches the depths of our heart, mind, and Spirit; He is able and willing to Pray for us and to lift (rescue) us from our weakness… yet, as with the “good thief” on the cross, intention must be mustered… in a split second before death our Spirit can cry out and the Holy Spirit can secure our Communion with God!

…but that is, sorry for the pun, a Hail Mary–we are not Called to rely on miraculous chances!

As I said above, we who walk not in sin but in Jesus, filled with the Spirit, do not long linger in sin; we occasionally stumble, but our “walk” promptly convicts us and we throw ourselves back at His feet imploring Him to forgive us and to empower us against sin the next time…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…understanding that “carnally-saved” is someone who while engaged in sin purports to have Fellowship (Salvation) with Christ… it is a void claim… we cannot be simply listeners of the Word, we must engage the Word!

Yes – exactly! Although that does deviate from previous discussions, and commentary by people like USCCB…

(As I warned in a separate post, if we learn something from Scripture that deviates from what our parents taught, or leaders taught, or other authorities taught — it is NOT a license to charge in and start fights! What will we have lost if we try to encourage each other on a message board, only to cause “disputes factions and dissensions” in bodies of Christ?)

I think here is another issue of vocabulary… to many “being holy” is striving to do/be “good” or a “place” where they can judge the failures of others (the Pharisee and the Publican at the Temple). Rather, being Holy means being in Fellowship with Christ: ‘…if you Love Me, Obey My Commandments…’

100% exactly! :yup: :yyeess:

We focus not on “being holy”, but rather on growing close to HIM that His holiness indwells us! It’s all a “focus-thing”!

One Major Commandment is: ‘…abide in Me, that I may Abide in you…’

The word “that”, really is implied – isn’t it?

Our Lifeline is not knowing or engaging satan; our Lifeline is that Water that flows from that Fountain… we are to engage Christ; we are to engage the Holy Spirit!

And then there is no room in us for evil, or for satan; for “as a man thinks within himself so is he” — let us not think of satan, but rather “Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” Philip4:8

…and yes, that Holiness that proceeds from God deepens/grows as we abide in Christ and allow Him to Abide in us!

That’s the whole issue!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

See?, we are closer than our vocabulary leads us to believe… that’s exactly how we, Catholics, view Salvation… our Salvation (Eternal Life), God’s Gift, is patent (remains) but we must, as Christ Commands, persevere till the end… we must Stand (abide in Christ);

Always my deepest desire is to teach people the intimate communion between two very real people, that salvation is. Yes we “persevere”, we are “diligent to show ourselves approved”, we are “diligent to make our calling and election bebaios-steadfast” — but in all of that, the whole thing is “draw near to God”. It’s HIS power by which we overcome, it’s HIS righteousness by which we are cleansed, it’s HIS salvation by which we live.

It is as Proverbs 6 says — “COMMIT your ways to the Lord, and (then!) He will direct your steps.” We truly move out of the driver’s seat, and let Him drive (Gal2:20). But then that car doesn’t really have tires, it has our own feet. He drives, AND we have to pick up our feet and move them in the direction He leads.

in that Fellowship (abiding) we cannot judge ourselves as accomplished or God forever “captured” and our “Salvation” guaranteed–we can and are able to fail/fall short through our own temerity or willful disobedience (rejection of God/giving into temptation).

And here is the wickedness of OSAS — all three views by definition breed a level of — complacency — of comfort, of slothfulness. We are NOT to be sluggish but imitators of those who by faith and patience inherit the promises…

Only when we realize that “salvation can become forfeit”, can we guard against laziness and engage the diligence required of us! Only then can we balance “there is no fear in love” (1Jn4:16-20), against “do not be conceited but FEAR – for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you!” (Rom11:18-23)

…again, our vocabulary may differ but we are on the same plane… anyone who claims Fellowship with the Son must Be in Fellowship with the Father (that takes out those who seek to pit the Son against the Father); yet, this fellowship must be constantly maintained… the Believer can fail/fall short of Salvation by willfully engaging sin and rejecting God’s Authority. It is interesting how the Apostles Preached Salvation in Christ not “Salvation guaranteed and experienced.”

Salvation is guaranteed from GOD’S side — “His gifts and calling are irrevocable”.

…but from our side, we can become faithless and fall away. It is not GOD who has forsaken us (Heb13:5), we can forsake Him.

Sin is deceitful; it strives not to divert us all at once, but only by small degrees. If we fail in diligence, we get turned from the path only little by little; until suddenly we realize we’re in the thicket and the path is nowhere in sight!

I love these passages that warn that we can fail; that we can fall short; that we can falter; that we must stay on guard even against our own personal belief/understanding… that we must rely on the Father and on the Son… that, in the Holy Spirit, our Hope is Sealed as an Inheritance!

Diligence. What Human marriage works without BOTH committed to communication and interaction?

Neither can we prevail with God, if we never “enter within the veil”!

…but here’s a little something people seem to overlook:
8 Watch yourselves, or all our work will be lost and not get the reward it deserves. (2 St. Peter 1:8)

Note that Calvinists read that and think “Watch yourself that you not lose SHINY CROWNS/REWARDS (you can’t lose salvation itself)…”

Col3:25 calls it “the reward of the inheritance”. Calvinists/RT’s seem to think that there is some kind of sin-level that God PERMITS, that will lose us REWARDS but we still get to waltz through them pearly gates!

That’s not it at all! ALL sin separates us from God, he who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins is blind and short-sighted and will NOT enter the gates of eternity! Let us not be him, that’s Peter’s warning!

…there’s an engagement of holiness (work of Salvation) in which we (Believers/those who are in Fellowship with Christ) are all involved–and do you see both the loss of Salvation and the Hidden Salvation?

“Hidden Salvation”?

 

[PJM]

I have a non-Catholic friend (a former Catholic) who asserts that Christ died for our sins once and for all and thus there is no need to confess our sins to a Priest (also a sinner). Christ paid the price for our sins in His Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection, and so there no need for time in Purgatory which is not mentioned in the Bible according to her.

She cites the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew Chapter 6 “forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”

Matthew 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18: 15-17.’** If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."**

One of the several reasons why I am very glad to be Catholic is the Sacrament of Reconciliation found in John 20:21-23 above. But I have to admit, I am not aware of the Church emphasizing the additional ‘requirement’ to forgive others to fully receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If we fail to forgive others, have we made a good Confession and can receive Holy Eucharist worthily?

God would say yes to your last question BUT leaves it to you & your Confessor.

You may wish to share this TRUTH with your friend:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

The Bible is not “OUR"S” ; it’s GOD"S own teachings; and there is always a risk in culling just the parts that appeal to OUR OWN sense of righteousness.

John 20: 19-23 quotes above by you was NOT a Jesus innovation or a Jesus invention. It IS BASED upon OT Tradition & practice.

2 John 8-9 “Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son”

John.15: 16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you

Exodus 28:1
Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest’ s office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make good the damage itself which he hath done, and shall add the fifth part besides, delivering it to the priest, who shall pray for him, offering the ram, and it shall be forgiven him.

So it seems prudent to ask WHY Jesus [GOD] choose to continue & even perfect this use of His PRIEST.

NOTE: in the passage you quoted [Jn 20:19-23] that Jesus [GOD’ proclaims TWICE: “Peace be with you”… that is the beauty hidden in this practice. ONLY Sacramental Confession offers an ASSURED and in God’s TRUTH; PEACE. Were this not GOD"S singular truth, it would NOT appear in the bible as GOD"S Inspired WORDS and DESIRE. …The ONLY other God approved [as the EXCEPTION, not the NORM} for sin forgiveness is a literally PERFECT Act of Contrition; Which GOD alone can and will Judge.

To be PERFECT it was have

1. TRUE contrition [true sorrow based not on a fear of hell] BUT only on a LOVE of and for God
2. And it must have a FIRM commitment to avoid with God’s help and acceptance of His grace to not commit that sin again

NOTHING else and noting less will be accepted by God who will, because as GOD He must pass Judgment upon each Soul based NOT on what we choose, for any reason to accept, live and practice; RATHER it will be on what GOD makes possible for each Soul
to Know, accept and live.

Your friends attitude is very often an excuse to try to justify immoral living; so without TRUE repentance and conversion; God cannot, not just will not, forgive such.

Heb 6: 4-8
Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,[CATHOLIC BAPTISM] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [JESUS-GOD HIMSELF IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,[CONFIRMED IN THE FAITH WHICH CREATES A PERSONAL COVENANT BETWEEN THE CONFIRMED AND THE HS] [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word [HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO GOD;S truths [SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE] of God and the powers of the age to come, [6]** if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.** [7] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. [8] But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

We ALSO pray in the Lords Prayer: "THY [NOT MINE] WILL BE DONE: Amen

God Bless you both

Patrick

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

Yes, Believers, through/in Jesus, possess Eternal Life:

And that’s all I mean by “saved”.

…but, as proven by Scriptures, Believers can fail to abide in Christ even when they make valiant efforts to “defend” the Faith; error can creep in and Believers can push past or fall short of abiding in Christ… St. Paul had to remind them and correct them… he challenged them: ‘Was it Paul that was crucified?’

It is not the error or the failure but the persistence in the error or failure or the obstinacy of claiming error/failure soundness/good.

The entire issue is that we either abide in Christ, or we abide in sin. Unbelief and disobedience are identically “walking in sin”. Perhaps the best word for sin, is “rebellion”…

Sin separates us from God; refusal to correct sin binds us to a life of unrighteousness. St. Paul is cautioning that they are headed into a state of unrighteousness–one from which they may not be able to recover.

How can some groups (like Calvinists), correctly acknowledge that the saved can and do sin, but refuse to accept “sin brings death” (do not be deceived beloved brethren – Jms1:14-16)?

What good is a doctrine, if followers must keep re-inking their “NOT REALLY” stamp???

No, not at all. Salvation is TWO-FOLD — we are saved now, we who have Jesus and walk in Him (1Jn5:11-13). And we are BEING saved we who abide in Him 1Cor1:18. “Sōzō” really is in present-passive-participle in 1Cor1:18, “we who are BEING SAVED”!

…and you keep saying you’re not Catholic! (Sorry, could not help it.)

All is forgiven. As I’ve said, if you compare me to, say, Calvinism — I’m a WHOLE lot closer to Catholic in understanding than to RT…

This is fully Catholic: Salvation has been gained by Jesus and we are being saved (made holy) through Jesus.

It’s all “abiding in Him”. How can we take “Do not be conceited but FEAR; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you! Behold then the kindness and severity of God – to those who fell, severity; to you kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else you also will be cut off! And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again…”

(“Hey, RC, James W, John G, John P, anyone – do you have any more stamp-pad ink? This one’s a little low…”)

Yes; yet — the battle is for our very (eternal) lives! If we TURN BACK to wickedness, though we are called “immature/milk-eaters”, no way we expect to still waltz through them pearly gates!

Correct… St. Paul puts it as a battle against spiritual principalities and powers–our spiritual survival is at issue.

That is what Paul said in Eph6. Yet, it’s not so much of a battle (not our own muscle and sweat and struggle), as it is to immerse ourselves deeper and deeper into Him. “Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world…”

Yes, in Jesus. That’s why God’s Gift of Salvation is never removed while man may still not Inherit the Kingdom through his own willfulness.

From God’s side He is eternally faithful; from our side not so much. Sooooo many passages use words like, “diligence” – and “endure” — and “KEEP yourselves in His love”!

Jcrichton, you and I do understand Scripture alike; I have no doubt you and I are brothers, forever – as are most others here. We shall exult in His presence, as true family, forever!

It is Christ’s Prayer:
20 I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. 21 May they all be one. Father, may they be one in us, as you are in me and I am in you, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. (St. John 17:20-21)

JCR, your words are extremely honorable. That is the goal – to see past our differences, into what we have in common. Jesus, His righteousness, eternal life.

Not a lot of others respond to me; so you are a blessing. I pray that others here do read our words. And are not internally debating about “taking-sides”; but rather are encouraged closer in their walk(s) with Jesus, towards exploiting the Spirit inside so His power overcomes stumbling.

In this, we all win.

Every one of us has differences; each perhaps feels he or she understands God’s intent and gospel. There is always much more to learn, especially how to clothe ourselves in His righteousness…

 

[Gadgeteer]

God would say yes to your last question BUT leaves it to you & your Confessor.

PJM, would you be offended if I offer some thoughts on your post?

You may wish to share this TRUTH with your friend:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

The idea of “INTERPRETATION”, is really concern over different meanings of what they wrote. What if a writer spoke clearly enough that only one meaning is possible? That’s my whole approach to errant beliefs, such as Reformed Theology. They cite 1Cor2:14, and say: “See, unregenerated men cannot understand; God must change their hearts FIRST — understanding comes before salvation!”. And I respond with verse 12, one must be saved and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit before and in order to get that understanding. Salvation comes before understanding. Is there any “interpretation”? No; Paul was clear.

They say, “2Cor4:3-4 also puts God-unveiling-their-hearts, BEFORE they are able to turn to Him!” And I respond with 2Cor3:16 — a man turns to God BEFORE the veil over his heart is removed! Is there any “interpretation”? Again no; Paul was clear, RT is wrong.

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

You are completely right. When we read the whole, we see harmony in ALL of the letters. One cannot be “set against another”, they all say the same thing.

The Bible is not “OUR"S” ; it’s GOD"S own teachings; and there is always a risk in culling just the parts that appeal to OUR OWN sense of righteousness.

Well said.

John 20: 19-23 quotes above by you was NOT a Jesus innovation or a Jesus invention. It IS BASED upon OT Tradition & practice.

2 John 8-9 “Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son”

This clearly shows movement is possible; it’s the same as 1Tim4:16 — “(be diligent about) yourselves and your teaching; PERSEVERE; as you do you will save yourselves”…

John.15: 16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you

In context, “I chose you twelve to be disciples”…

Exodus 28:1
Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest’ s office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make good the damage itself which he hath done, and shall add the fifth part besides, delivering it to the priest, who shall pray for him, offering the ram, and it shall be forgiven him.

So it seems prudent to ask WHY Jesus [GOD] choose to continue & even perfect this use of His PRIEST.

NOTE: in the passage you quoted [Jn 20:19-23] that Jesus [GOD’ proclaims TWICE: “Peace be with you”… that is the beauty hidden in this practice. ONLY Sacramental Confession offers an ASSURED and in God’s TRUTH; PEACE. Were this not GOD"S singular truth, it would NOT appear in the bible as GOD"S Inspired WORDS and DESIRE. …The ONLY other God approved [as the EXCEPTION, not the NORM} for sin forgiveness is a literally PERFECT Act of Contrition; Which GOD alone can and will Judge.

Question – not meaning to be argumentative — there’s nothing wrong with talking with (or confessing to) a priest. Do you also perceive that the veil in the temple tore, when Jesus died, to give us direct access to the Almighty?

To be PERFECT it was have

1. TRUE contrition [true sorrow based not on a fear of hell] BUT only on a LOVE of and for God

Again, very well said!

1. And it must have a FIRM commitment to avoid with God’s help and acceptance of His grace to not commit that sin again

[/quote]

 

[Gadgeteer]

NOTHING else and nothing less will be accepted by God who will, because as GOD He must pass Judgment upon each Soul based NOT on what we choose, for any reason to accept, live and practice; RATHER it will be on what GOD makes possible for each Soul to Know, accept and live.

Well, we choose faith; and we choose to pursue His light and holiness, or to pursue sin. Rom2:6-11, John3:20-21, etcetera…

Your friends attitude is very often an excuse to try to justify immoral living; so without TRUE repentance and conversion; God cannot, not just will not, forgive such.

Heb 6: 4-8
Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,[CATHOLIC BAPTISM] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [JESUS-GOD HIMSELF IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,[CONFIRMED IN THE FAITH WHICH CREATES A PERSONAL COVENANT BETWEEN THE CONFIRMED AND THE HS] [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word [HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO GOD;S truths [SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE] of God and the powers of the age to come, [6]** if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.** [7] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. [8] But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

Although I do not associate those sacraments with that passage, you and I are close in understanding.

Don’t miss verses 11-12 — “And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”

Diligence in Him really is our choice, constantly.

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

Nice — “Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me.” Jn17:3

We ALSO pray in the Lords Prayer: "THY [NOT MINE] WILL BE DONE: Amen

God Bless you both

Patrick

Yes, Patrick, His will. Not ours – until we grow so close to Him that His will becomes ours.

Psalm 37:4 “Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart”, carries as its secret — that if we delight in Him, our desires will be His desires. And James’ writing is served, “You have not because you ask not; or you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions.”

James continues, “draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”
And then, our desires will align with His.

 

[PJM]

PJM, would you be offended if I offer some thoughts on your post?

Not in the least bit

The idea of “INTERPRETATION”, is really concern over different meanings of what they wrote. What if a writer spoke clearly enough that only one meaning is possible? That’s my whole approach to errant beliefs, such as Reformed Theology. They cite 1Cor2:14, and say: “See, unregenerated men cannot understand; God must change their hearts FIRST — understanding comes before salvation!”. And I respond with verse 12, one must be saved and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit before and in order to get that understanding. Salvation comes before understanding. Is there any “interpretation”? No; Paul was clear.

HERE is the Douay Bible on verse #14
“[14] “The sensual man”: The sensual man is either he who is taken up with sensual pleasures, with carnal and worldly affections; or he who measureth divine mysteries by natural reason, sense, and human wisdom only. Now such a man has little or no notion of the things of God. Whereas the spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion, takes not human sense for his guide: but submits his judgment to the decisions of the church, which he is commanded to hear and obey. For Christ hath promised to remain to the end of the world with his church, and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of truth”

What you have here is which cam first? the egg or the chicken?

Certainly a soul must be disposed to receive God’s WORDS in order to rightly understand them. But to claim that salvation must come first:shrug: I [ME here] don’t think so.

They say, “2Cor4:3-4 also puts God-unveiling-their-hearts, BEFORE they are able to turn to Him!” And I respond with 2Cor3:16 — a man turns to God BEFORE the veil over his heart is removed! Is there any “interpretation”? Again no; Paul was clear, RT is wrong

The lack of the Authors intent, “clarity” , seems to me not to be the true issue. Rather the issue is over coming ones prideful prejudices and choosing an understanding that appeals to their OWN wishes, and desired faith outcome instruction.

You are completely right. When we read the whole, we see harmony in ALL of the letters. One cannot be “set against another”, they all say the same thing.

Well said.

This clearly shows movement is possible; it’s the same as 1Tim4:16 — “(be diligent about) yourselves and your teaching; PERSEVERE; as you do you will save yourselves”…

AMEN!.

In context, “I chose you twelve to be disciples”…

Question – not meaning to be argumentative — there’s nothing wrong with talking with (or confessing to) a priest. Do you also perceive that the veil in the temple tore, when Jesus died, to give us direct access to the Almighty?

YES I do, BUT only in the way, the manner taught and desired by Jesus Christ, who as GOD founded just one set of Faith beliefs and through JUST His Catholic Church, if one seeks the FULLNESS of that truth [singular per defined issue].

Again, very well said!

Thank you and continued Blessings,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Well, we choose faith; and we choose to pursue His light and holiness, or to pursue sin. Rom2:6-11, John3:20-21, etcetera…

Although I do not associate those sacraments with that passage, you and I are close in understanding.

Don’t miss verses 11-12 — “And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”

Diligence in Him really is our choice, constantly.

Nice — “Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me.” Jn17:3

Yes, Patrick, His will. Not ours – until we grow so close to Him that His will becomes ours.

Psalm 37:4 “Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart”, carries as its secret — that if we delight in Him, our desires will be His desires. And James’ writing is served, “You have not because you ask not; or you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions.”

James continues, “draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”
And then, our desires will align with His.

Thank you

 

[Gadgeteer]

Not in the least bit

:hug1:

HERE is the Douay Bible on verse #14
“[14] “The sensual man”: The sensual man is either he who is taken up with sensual pleasures, with carnal and worldly affections; or he who measureth divine mysteries by natural reason, sense, and human wisdom only. Now such a man has little or no notion of the things of God. Whereas the spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion, takes not human sense for his guide: but submits his judgment to the decisions of the church, which he is commanded to hear and obey. For Christ hath promised to remain to the end of the world with his church, and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of truth”

What you have here is which came first? the egg or the chicken?

One reason I’ve posted here, is to give other members “ammunition” when speaking to groups like Calvinists. “Egg-or-chicken” is the whole issue with Calvinism. They perceive that man is not just totally depraved, but totally unable to turn to God or even desire righteousness (no response to the violation this does with verses like Luke8:13!). Thus, “God must give them new hearts first, He must zap them with regeneration! Only then will they turn to Him and believe and be saved!”

So 1Cor2:14 is really the only verse that (they think) boldly declares an unregenerated man cannot believe and be saved. But — in verse 12 one must receive the Spirit in order to get the very spiritual-things that “natural” men do not understand.

Question – exactly how does a non-seeking, God-refusing, sin-focused person receive the Spirit? He can’t! “Receive”, is fully believing to salvation. So your Calvinist friend must insist that an "unturned sin-obsessed-person receives the Spirit" (no Calvinist believes that), or he has to accept that the verse does not teach “regeneration-before-belief”. His only other option is to flat ignore verses 12-14 (really, 9-15).

Certainly a soul must be disposed to receive God’s WORDS in order to rightly understand them. But to claim that salvation must come first:shrug: I [ME here] don’t think so.

And now you can very solidly convict your Calvinist friend. There is nothing of “you-believe/I-believe”, Paul plainly said “We receive the Spirit (believe-to-salvation) and THEN are taught spiritual things”.

Calvinists have no defense for this, no denial, no argument. No interpretation.

The lack of the Authors intent, “clarity” , seems to me not to be the true issue. Rather the issue is over coming one’s prideful prejudices and choosing an understanding that appeals to their OWN wishes, and desired faith outcome instruction.

That’s correct. But in discussions with “those who contradict” (Titus1:9), you and I have to be versed enough so that there is nothing of our own opinion, we simply give them what the Apostle(s) wrote. In 2Cor4:3-4, with 2:3:16, turning-to-God comes squarely before “veil-obscuring-their-hearts” — and that means Calvinists misunderstand that verse too.

In the book I wrote, I list fifty-five verses that Calvinists think promote “Sovereign Predestined Salvation” (and monergistic regeneration before anyone turns to or seeks God and His righteousness) — every last one of them is ruined against Calvinistic understanding usually by immediate context…

AMEN!.

Scripture is clear; God is sovereign, and we are responsible. Do you know about Rom1:16? A.T.Robertson (Greek scholar and Bible commentator) defers to Lightfoot, “faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal”. “The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith.”

Question – not meaning to be argumentative — there’s nothing wrong with talking with (or confessing to) a priest. Do you also perceive that the veil in the temple tore, when Jesus died, to give us direct access to the Almighty?

YES I do, BUT only in the way, the manner taught and desired by Jesus Christ, who as GOD founded just one set of Faith beliefs and through JUST His Catholic Church, if one seeks the FULLNESS of that truth [singular per defined issue].

Because you and I agree that we have “direct access to God”, we have sufficient agreement to not argue this; we both will pursue Him and fellowship with Him, and Jesus will return and you and I will be part of his family, forever.

Thank you and continued Blessings,

Patrick

And to you.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Scripture is clear; God is sovereign, and we are responsible. Do you know about Rom1:16? A.T.Robertson (Greek scholar and Bible commentator) defers to Lightfoot, “faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal”. “The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith.”

Another of the “Fifty-Five Secondaries” that RT’s think promotes “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”, is Eph2:8. Thinking the word “THAT” refers to “that-faith” (faith therefore being a gift from God — making Paul’s words mean, “For by grace THROUGH GRACE have you been saved”). But clearly “that”, refers to the whole salvation experience, “by-grace-through-faith-have-you-been-saved”. Salvation is a gift, the decision to receive it is wholly our choice.

On Eph2:8 Robertson says, "Grace is God’s part, faith is ours."

Faith is our choice. It is by the outcome of OUR FAITH that we receive salvation, 1Pet1:9. Many times Jesus said “your faith has made you well”.

Your faith — you, me, each person who decides to turn to Jesus. His grace, our faith – “from beginning, to ending”.

“Having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Having been known by God, are you now turning back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again? You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? You who are seeking to be justified again by law — you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace!” Gal3:3, 4:9, 5:7, 5:4!

Every day we decide to walk in Christ or not (Gal2:6-8); every day we decide to lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new godly man (Eph4:22-24, Col3:9-11). Every day we decide to “guard, by the (power of the) Spirit who indwells us, the treasure entrusted to us” (2Tim1:12-14).

And every day we talk with brothers and sisters, even if only on an internet message board, “encouraging one another lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God”.

May the success of our lives be measured in how well we serve Jesus-whom-we-claim, how well we shine His light onto our friends, family, and our enemies. We are lights before the world, and HE is “the light”, we are vessels!

 

[jcrichton]

I think I tried to follow the pizza-delivery-guy, and got lost!

But it is a position that we own — “he who has Jesus has eternal life …you may know…” Has it now, present, full certainty…

(That it is something we definitely do possess now, does not mean that we do not have to be diligent to possess it [Him!] tomorrow, and the next day!)

Fellowship is an interaction between two people. Jesus said, “Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me.” (Jn17:3)

Sacraments are fine — even Protestants enjoy sacraments; Scripture seems to teach them as the manifestation (evidence?) of salvation…

If by “confession” you mean “repentance”, then again we agree perfectly. AND – “repentance” is a walk, we walk not in sin. Yes we occasionally sin; and all sin breaks fellowship with Christ. Yet we who walk not in sin, given time (and not very much!) we are convicted of our sin and repent, desperately careful of His presence in us, which sin does end. A Christian is one for whom Jesus’ presence is more vital than the air that he or she breathes…



Yes! Look at what OSAS does to God’s character!

1. Antinomianism – insults God’s holiness, makes Him hypocritical against sin!
2. Eternal Security – violates “love”, imposes barriers to leaving!
3. RT (Predestined Salvation) – violates “love”, charges God with sin, makes Him a fraud and false judge!

Not only do all three repeat what satan told Eve ("don’t worry you won’t really die!") – all three insult God and impugn His character! Does anyone really think God is not angered? (Matt12:25-31)


…I think here lies “perspective;” to many the prodigal son is not dead and does not cease being a “son” because they view it in God’s eye: His Mercy and Love is never removed from man–God is patiently awaiting the return of the sinner.

Yet, a sinner is not alive–he/she is dead Spiritually.

This is a pure act of the Holy Spirit; He searches the depths of our heart, mind, and Spirit; He is able and willing to Pray for us and to lift (rescue) us from our weakness… yet, as with the “good thief” on the cross, intention must be mustered… in a split second before death our Spirit can cry out and the Holy Spirit can secure our Communion with God!

As I said above, we who walk not in sin but in Jesus, filled with the Spirit, do not long linger in sin; we occasionally stumble, but our “walk” promptly convicts us and we throw ourselves back at His feet imploring Him to forgive us and to empower us against sin the next time…

Hi!

…yeah, I’m parroting myself again: “vocabulary.”

…seemingly our understanding is very much the same; there are some points of divergence but our vocabulary makes our similarity seem greater and our dissimilarity compounds such points…

Believers do not cease being Believers when tempted or when they succumb to their temptations; refusing to correct an error/sin does imperils a Believer’s Salvation since Christ is no longer the practice of his/her Walk. A Believer who turns to God and rejects the sin committed returns to God’s Grace and is again in Fellowship with Christ.

None who have Known Christ and returns to a life of sin retains Fellowship with Christ but is in fellowship with sin.

None can be in Fellowship with Christ and in fellowship with the devil:

21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take your share at the table of the Lord and at the table of demons. 22 Do we want to make the Lord angry; are we stronger than he is?

(1 Corinthians 10:21-22)

15 You know, surely, that your bodies are members making up the body of Christ; do you think I can take parts of Christ’s body and join them to the body of a prostitute? Never! 16 As you know, a man who goes with a prostitute is one body with her, since the two, as it is said, become one flesh. 17 But anyone who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. (1 Corinthians 6:15-17)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…Salvation is guaranteed from GOD’S side — “His gifts and calling are irrevocable”.

…but from our side, we can become faithless and fall away. It is not GOD who has forsaken us (Heb13:5), we can forsake Him.

Sin is deceitful; it strives not to divert us all at once, but only by small degrees. If we fail in diligence, we get turned from the path only little by little; until suddenly we realize we’re in the thicket and the path is nowhere in sight!

Diligence. What Human marriage works without BOTH committed to communication and interaction?

Neither can we prevail with God, if we never “enter within the veil”!

Note that Calvinists read that and think “Watch yourself that you not lose SHINY CROWNS/REWARDS (you can’t lose salvation itself)…”

Col3:25 calls it “the reward of the inheritance”. Calvinists/RT’s seem to think that there is some kind of sin-level that God PERMITS, that will lose us REWARDS but we still get to waltz through them pearly gates!

That’s not it at all! ALL sin separates us from God, he who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins is blind and short-sighted and will NOT enter the gates of eternity! Let us not be him, that’s Peter’s warning!

Hi!

Yes! It is the Promise! It is the New Covenant! It is the reason why Jesus Revealed:

25 Jesus said: ‘I am the resurrection. If anyone believes in me, even though he dies he will live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’

(St. John 11:25-26)

“Hidden Salvation”?

Yes, look at the passage again:

8 Watch yourselves, or all our work will be lost and not get** the reward it deserves**

. (2 St. Peter 1:8)
Our Salvation, our Life, is Hidden in Christ… it is the Reward which, in Hope, we long to receive:

1 Since you have been brought back to true life with Christ

, you must look for the things that are in heaven, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on heavenly things, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. 4 But when Christ is revealed – and **he is your life **– you too will be revealed in all your glory with him. (Colossians 3:1-4)
…this then brings us back to: “I am the Resurrection and the Life…”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…Not a lot of others respond to me; so you are a blessing. I pray that others here do read our words. And are not internally debating about “taking-sides”; but rather are encouraged closer in their walk(s) with Jesus, towards exploiting the Spirit inside so His power overcomes stumbling.

In this, we all win.

Every one of us has differences; each perhaps feels he or she understands God’s intent and gospel. There is always much more to learn, especially how to clothe ourselves in His righteousness…

Hi!

…the fact is that there are differences in our views/understanding (as I have argued, much of it due to vocabulary) and the reason for exchange may escape many… hopefully, those who do not engage the thread directly may be taking notes and studying Scriptures and Church Doctrine as a means to check what is being presented here…

…my personal reason for being here is to exercise my mind and heart as I search through Scriptures to present my comment/understanding.

May the Holy Spirit Grant us the Light we need to Stand for Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

:hug1:

One reason I’ve posted here, is to give other members “ammunition” when speaking to groups like Calvinists. “Egg-or-chicken” is the whole issue with Calvinism. They perceive that man is not just totally depraved, but totally unable to turn to God or even desire righteousness (no response to the violation this does with verses like Luke8:13!). Thus, “God must give them new hearts first, He must zap them with regeneration! Only then will they turn to Him and believe and be saved!”

So 1Cor2:14 is really the only verse that (they think) boldly declares an unregenerated man cannot believe and be saved. But — in verse 12 one must receive the Spirit in order to get the very spiritual-things that “natural” men do not understand.

Question – exactly how does a non-seeking, God-refusing, sin-focused person receive the Spirit? He can’t! “Receive”, is fully believing to salvation. So your Calvinist friend must insist that an "unturned sin-obsessed-person receives the Spirit" (no Calvinist believes that), or he has to accept that the verse does not teach “regeneration-before-belief”. His only other option is to flat ignore verses 12-14 (really, 9-15).

And now you can very solidly convict your Calvinist friend. There is nothing of “you-believe/I-believe”, Paul plainly said “We receive the Spirit (believe-to-salvation) and THEN are taught spiritual things”.

Calvinists have no defense for this, no denial, no argument. No interpretation.

That’s correct. But in discussions with “those who contradict” (Titus1:9), you and I have to be versed enough so that there is nothing of our own opinion, we simply give them what the Apostle(s) wrote. In 2Cor4:3-4, with 2:3:16, turning-to-God comes squarely before “veil-obscuring-their-hearts” — and that means Calvinists misunderstand that verse too.

In the book I wrote, I list fifty-five verses that Calvinists think promote “Sovereign Predestined Salvation” (and monergistic regeneration before anyone turns to or seeks God and His righteousness) — every last one of them is ruined against Calvinistic understanding usually by immediate context…


Scripture is clear; God is sovereign, and we are responsible. Do you know about Rom1:16? A.T.Robertson (Greek scholar and Bible commentator) defers to Lightfoot, “faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal”. “The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith.”

Because you and I agree that we have “direct access to God”, we have sufficient agreement to not argue this; we both will pursue Him and fellowship with Him, and Jesus will return and you and I will be part of his family, forever.

And to you.

THANKS,

Nicely done!

GBY

 

[Gadgeteer]

…yeah, I’m parroting myself again: “vocabulary.”

…seemingly our understanding is very much the same; there are some points of divergence but our vocabulary makes our similarity seem greater and our dissimilarity compounds such points…

Yes — like, you say: “Catholics do not believe we are saved now”; but you and I agree that salvation is possessed by those who receive Jesus. As in, “He who has the Son, has eternal life; I write this that …you may know you have eternal life.” (1Jn5:11-13)

Believers do not cease being Believers when tempted or when they succumb to their temptations; refusing to correct an error/sin does imperil a Believer’s Salvation since Christ is no longer the practice of his/her Walk. A Believer who turns to God and rejects the sin committed returns to God’s Grace and is again in Fellowship with Christ.

You know, that has to be James’ meaning in 5:19-20. Nothing else works. And Paul in Rom11:23, and many other verses…

None who have Known Christ and returns to a life of sin retains Fellowship with Christ but is in fellowship with sin.

“Either/or”.

None can be in Fellowship with Christ and in fellowship with the devil:

I betchya’ read that in 2Cor6…

 

[Gadgeteer]

…the fact is that there are differences in our views/understanding (as I have argued, much of it due to vocabulary) and the reason for exchange may escape many… hopefully, those who do not engage the thread directly may be taking notes and studying Scriptures and Church Doctrine as a means to check what is being presented here…

Exactly. For every one who posts on a message board, there are hundreds who read without posting. 100% “look up the verses”, and even sometimes look up the Greek, or a commentator. Rom1:16 for instance — “ek pistew ie pistin – from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal” (Robertson/Lightfoot).

…my personal reason for being here is to exercise my mind and heart as I search through Scriptures to present my comment/understanding.

All that; and, hopefully, some good fellowship.

May the Holy Spirit Grant us the Light we need to Stand for Christ!

He is the Light; and the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it. We are not in darkness but in light; therefore do not hide our lights under a basket, but let our light shine before the world…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Yes! It is the Promise! It is the New Covenant! It is the reason why Jesus Revealed:
25 Jesus said: ‘I am the resurrection. If anyone believes in me, even though he dies he will live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ (St. John 11:25-26)

Exactly that. And — not mere “mental-assent-belief” (James2:19), but belief which receives Jesus as Savior and Master, that communes with the real persons of Son, Spirit, and Father; truly indwelt fellowship. That embodies Gal2:20, it is as if Jesus works His good deeds through us!

“Hidden Salvation”?

Yes, look at the passage again:

Our Salvation, our Life, is Hidden in Christ… it is the Reward which, in Hope, we long to receive:
1 Since you have been brought back to true life with Christ, you must look for the things that are in heaven, where Christ is, sitting at God’s right hand. 2 Let your thoughts be on heavenly things, not on the things that are on the earth, 3 because you have died, and now the life you have is hidden with Christ in God. 4 But when Christ is revealed – and he is your life – you too will be revealed in all your glory with him. (Colossians 3:1-4)

To me, “hidden-with-Christ”, is that we are removed from spiritual danger; as long as we dwell in Him.

…this then brings us back to: “I am the Resurrection and the Life…”

Might be confusing to some; "though dead, you shall live. But to live you must first die, and he who believes in Me shall never die." :doh2:

With spiritual teaching, we come to understand: "Though (physically) dead, you shall live (spiritually, forever). But to (be spiritually) alive you must first die (to sin), and he who believes in Me shall never die (shall have eternal life and exult in Jesus’ presence and escape the fiery-second-death)…

 

[Gadgeteer]

THANKS,

Nicely done!

GBY

:extrahappy:

PJM, you are a blessing to me!