Occupy Wall Street?

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Re-reading this … I think you need to look inside yourself.

What is your deep inner motivation for judging others?
Eh don’t pull this card out on them. I always hate when more liberal minded people pull it out. When people say “don’t judge others” they really mean “don’t judge others if your going to say something less than appealing.” No one cares if I “judge” you and assume the best in you. People forget that judging goes both ways and is not always a negative thing.

judge: To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration.

The problem is when people make judgements rashly and are irrational in their judgements. Judging people is apart of life.
 
The 1% has more because they work harder and they work smarter than the other 99%.

They get more education [formal or informal] and don’t use drugs or alcohol and keep their noses to the grindstones [which means they work a lot of hours … not 40 hours per week; more like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with a lot of travel to field locations and a lot of work-related reading at night or while traveling.].

I have friends who started their own businesses … sometimes, franchises … and they put in those kinds of hours and they ended up doing extremely well.

That’s how the 1% got there.
I applaud your friends that have started their own businesses and are doing well. If they have access to and can afford lobbyists who lobby for their own best interests with legislators, then they are truly the 1% we are discussing. I suspect that they are not.
 
And if I was to become a producer, would I deserve to be rich? Does anyone deserve that when even one person in the world is suffering because they don’t have enough?

And even if every human on the planet could be rich and have anything they desired, would that really be a good thing? The verse I posted is simple. It is hard for a rich man to get to Heaven, because you have to spend so much time serving your wealth (yourself) and ignoring God and your fellow man in order to ever become so rich.

Hard work is one thing. Devoting your life to serving yourself is another. There are plenty of hard-working volunteers who will die poor, but they have “produced” something far better for their neighbors through love than the 1% will ever have in their bank account.

Instead of admiring the 1% club members for their hard (self-serving) work, just say a prayer that the club members will start to care more about others than themselves.
I think people deserve the pay they work for, yes.

I do not think that the richest citizens deserve an inside window to what laws are passed, via lobbyists that they fund, to the detriment of others.
 
Monte, I have no desire to be rich or to start a company and make millions of dollars. Why would I want that temptation? I’m not sure I would handle having a lot of personal wealth any better than most people in that situation do (not very well). Perhaps you could stop attacking me, and at least attack my message directly - although if you could manage to discuss it without attacking anything, that would be ideal.
OK, so you don’t want to be rich.

What if you are a writer or a musician, and you want to publish your own work?

The only way to do that is to start up your own business.

And what if your work becomes popular?

Then you need to expand by hiring people and setting up an organization, with you at the top.

I know of individuals who were stone cold broke and had an idea and it took off and within a short period of time they were employing hundreds of people and millions of dollars were pouring in and they were traveling around meeting with people to the point of exhaustion. At least of of these people went and bought an executive jet just to make travel a little easier. [All are real, actual cases, by the way.]

So, I am questioning you … if you become successful, how do you handle your success?

Your goal was not to make millions; you just wanted to offer your work to the public.

But, now, without lobbyists, you are in the 1%.

Using your thinking, would you attack yourself? Would you put a cap on your earnings and the earnings of the people who work for you?

Would you close your company because it is too successful?

What would happen to the people who work there for you? They would be out of work.

And you would be responsible.

Would you cut your profits? But what if the business slumps for some reason? If you don’t have a cushion of retained earnings … money in the bank … from saving up some of those profits … how would your company get through the tough times without laying people off?
 
I think people deserve the pay they work for, yes.

I do not think that the richest citizens deserve an inside window to what laws are passed, via lobbyists that they fund, to the detriment of others.
The tax code alone is up around 75,000 pages.

You find that your business has a competitor that got a lobbyist to include a provision that excludes your competition from minimum wage laws. [An actual case, just recently in the news.]

So, what do you do??? You will be forced out of business by a competitor who used a lobbyist. You will be forced to fire all of your employees. They will NOT be rehired by your competitor because he is far, far away … someplace like American Samoa … just to pick a place.

[What I would do is contact my member of Congress to see if I can get some equivalency worked out. Otherwise, I and all of my employees will be out on the street.]

But then that makes me a lobbyist.

[Most likely, I would not “personally” make the contact. I would hire someone in Washington who is with a law firm that also employs the spouse or child of my member of Congress.]

What do you do?

[And you don’t have much time in which to do it, by the way. Because your sales are dropping sharply because your costs are higher than your competitor’s costs and so your prices are too high. And you can’t really sell below cost.]
 
The tax code alone is up around 75,000 pages.

You find that your business has a competitor that got a lobbyist to include a provision that excludes your competition from minimum wage laws. [An actual case, just recently in the news.]

So, what do you do??? You will be forced out of business by a competitor who used a lobbyist. You will be forced to fire all of your employees. They will NOT be rehired by your competitor because he is far, far away … someplace like American Samoa … just to pick a place.

[What I would do is contact my member of Congress to see if I can get some equivalency worked out. Otherwise, I and all of my employees will be out on the street.]

But then that makes me a lobbyist.

[Most likely, I would not “personally” make the contact. I would hire someone in Washington who is with a law firm that also employs the spouse or child of my member of Congress.]

What do you do?

[And you don’t have much time in which to do it, by the way. Because your sales are dropping sharply because your costs are higher than your competitor’s costs and so your prices are too high. And you can’t really sell below cost.]
So my lobbyist is funded by me, and that’s one person with money. Other lobbyists are funded by corporations worth billions of dollars. Which one is going to persuade the most legistlators? This is one illustration of how our lobbyist system is corrupt.
Check this out:
cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57317459/lobbyists-can-skirt-ethics-reform-says-abramoff/
 
(The French revolution merely declared war on the Catholic Church, massacred innocent peasants and innocent nuns, shed a lot of blood while merely paving the way for Napoleon to become a dictator.)
Your use of the word ‘merely’ is really funny. Yes, these things that happened during the French Revolution happen when inequities are not addressed by good people in a good way. I want our country to come together and work together, not become an oligarchy. That always ends badly according to history.
 
What long term? He’s retirement age now.
If he has been investing for his retirement all along although his portfolio would be less than it was 3 years ago it would still be still far above what he put in. For example in 1980 the DOW was in the mid 700s-now its over 10,000.
 
Your use of the word ‘merely’ is really funny. Yes, these things that happened during the French Revolution happen when inequities are not addressed by good people in a good way. I want our country to come together and work together, not become an oligarchy. That always ends badly according to history.
Actually the French Revolution can be traced back to the country getting into extreme debt. It is funny how history repeats itself because the French tried “buying” their way out of debt as well. In 1783, Charles Alexandre de Calonne who was put in charge of tax policy increased public spending in an attempt to “buy” the country’s way out of debt. These policies failed to address the problem and 6 years later you have the French Revolution. History does not bode well for America if we continue on the path we are currently traveling on.
 
It’s also known as work.

Some people seem to be allergic to doing work. Which is called “work”; it’t not called “fun and games”.

But you wanted an explanation of the 1%.

Work.
lol you mean a specific kind of work. profit-obsessed self-centered work.

There’s all kinds of work that doesn’t maximize mammon or profits, but is of much greater value to humanity.
 
OK, so you don’t want to be rich.

What if you are a writer or a musician, and you want to publish your own work?

The only way to do that is to start up your own business.

And what if your work becomes popular?

Then you need to expand by hiring people and setting up an organization, with you at the top.

I know of individuals who were stone cold broke and had an idea and it took off and within a short period of time they were employing hundreds of people and millions of dollars were pouring in and they were traveling around meeting with people to the point of exhaustion. At least of of these people went and bought an executive jet just to make travel a little easier. [All are real, actual cases, by the way.]

So, I am questioning you … if you become successful, how do you handle your success?

Your goal was not to make millions; you just wanted to offer your work to the public.

But, now, without lobbyists, you are in the 1%.

Using your thinking, would you attack yourself? Would you put a cap on your earnings and the earnings of the people who work for you?

Would you close your company because it is too successful?

What would happen to the people who work there for you? They would be out of work.

And you would be responsible.

Would you cut your profits? But what if the business slumps for some reason? If you don’t have a cushion of retained earnings … money in the bank … from saving up some of those profits … how would your company get through the tough times without laying people off?
These are very good questions and I’m glad you asked them. What I want to point out is the difference between company money and personal money.

If I were in the situation you described, here’s how I hope that I would act. But like I said, having access to, or control over, lots of money is a very strong temptation for almost anyone, so I can’t promise you I would be strong enough to do these things.

Let’s say I have a passion for making “widgets”. I want to keep this completely fictional so I don’t insult anyone’s real career choice. When I start my widget company in my garage, I’m not thinking about getting rich at all, just how much I love making widgets and that I want to make the best widgets I can. Making widgets is my passion and I feel blessed if I can make enough money to support my family doing something I love. You get the point…

One month, totally unsolicited by me, my widgets receive a glowing review in “Widgets Quarterly”. Suddenly I’m flooded with orders and the garage is no longer big enough, so over the course of several years I hire employees, and move into first one, then two, and eventually many production facilities around the world. The company is no longer called “Mgoforth’s Widgets”, it’s now “Widgets International, Inc” and we employ 50,000 people globally. We’re the largest widget producer in the market, and we’re even thinking of expanding our line to include doo-dads and thingamajigs. Basically the business is a stunning success, beyond my wildest dreams when I first started. And to answer your question, I would reserve a “prudent” amount of capital to keep the business going through rough economic times, but I know that I’ll never be able to guarantee anyone a job for life. I’m not God and I can’t make that kind of promise. I would do what I could to avoid layoffs though.

To me, nothing I’ve written above seems sinful. You have a successful business, employing lots of people, and making a product that people (let’s assume) have a need for.

Somewhere along the line from garage tinkerer to Fortune 500 CEO, I had to decide what to pay myself and my employees. Again, this is what I hope I would be strong and wise enough to do… As a hard-working business owner, I don’t live in a one bedroom apartment or force my children to skip meals or wear old shoes that are too small. We live in the suburbs in a comfortable home that is big enough for our needs. The square footage isn’t critical to this example, but let’s just say it’s an “average size” for a house in the US. My business is successful enough, and I’m so well-loved as the company founder, that I could pay myself anything up to $10 million per year with zero complaints from the board of directors, share-holders or employees. Instead I choose to cap my personal salary at a level that will allow me to live my average American lifestyle debt-free and at the same time save money for the same average lifestyle in retirement and for my children to go to college.

That’s after-tax, BTW. I’m no fan of taxes (and this is the real me talking now) because I think the government runs pretty inefficiently and is corrupt. But remembering the words of Christ to “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” (Mark 12:17), my CEO alter-ego pays his taxes and doesn’t attempt to take advantage of special loopholes in the tax code that wouldn’t be available to most Americans.

continued in next post…
 
…continued from above post.

Now, does paying myself a salary fit for a modest American lifestyle rather than an extravegant one have any negative impact on my company or my employees? I can’t imagine why it would. Do I tell my employees how much I make? This is a tough question, and if the relevent corporate laws and company regulations allowed it, I would probably choose not to disclose that information simply because it would seem to be inviting others to praise me. Instead, I would find a way to donate some or all of the remainder of that possible $10 million annual salary that I could have given myself to charity. And I would keep that secret too.

"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full." Matthew 6:2

Does paying myself a modest salary have any benefits for anyone? Yes! Of course it benefits the people who receive the bulk of the $10 million that I donate to charity, but it also benefits me and my family. By denying ourselves all those worldly comforts we could have bought with $10 million a year and only keeping what we need to get by and also taking care of people who need our help, we’re “rendering unto God” the thanks that are due to Him for providing me with a successful widget company in the first place.

But wait, didn’t I do all the hard work? What does God have to do with my success? Well, where did the idea for the widget company come from? My creative mind of course…which is a gift from God. And how did I have the good fortune to be born in a country where a widget maker has the chance to start his own company and grow it? I’d say that’s God again. What about my good health that gave me the freedom to work so hard? Yep, it was God. In fact I could ask myself where I got everything good thing in my life and will always be able to trace it back to God if I look hard enough.

I also wouldn’t pay my employees outrageously high salaries because I wouldn’t want to tempt them with the same earthly riches that I’m wisely denying myself. I know, I know…I’ll never find talented people to work for me if I don’t pay top dollar. Well, if that was the case, so be it. Remember, I’m doing this for the love of making widgets and serving God is always the #1 priority in my life. Even if I do get smart people, they might be lured away to another company that’s willing to pay more. I don’t think I’ve ever read any scripture where Jesus said “follow me and I’ll make you rich and your company successful”. He did say this though:

"Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." Matthew 6:31-33

What are “all these things”? Something to eat, something to drink, and clothing. Probably a place to live would be reasonable to ask for as well. But I don’t see any mention of a luxury car, mansion, season tickets to the Yankees, etc. I don’t believe God really wants us to give ourselves those things, because they are powerful distractions from Him.

So to summarize, successful business = good. Job creator = good. Seeking God in all these things = excellent!

Earning (and keeping) more money than you need to live a modest life = temptation to sin, problematic (and that’s being charitable).

I hope I’ve explained my thoughts clearly.
 
Oh, and I forgot to say…neither myself nor my employees would be in the 1% (richest people) no matter how successful the company became.
 
If he has been investing for his retirement all along although his portfolio would be less than it was 3 years ago it would still be still far above what he put in. For example in 1980 the DOW was in the mid 700s-now its over 10,000.
It should be noted that these losses are short term losses on paper. Looking at the long term though, one would make out quite well.

The problem is that people started retirement savings too late so that they could not recognize these long term gains.
 
It should be noted that these losses are short term losses on paper. Looking at the long term though, one would make out quite well.

The problem is that people started retirement savings too late so that they could not recognize these long term gains.
Correct. You haven’t lost anything until you sell. a person who started saving for his retirement at age 62 does indeed have a problem if they are now 65, and want to use . There investments to retire on. a person who started saving for their retirement when they were in their 20s is in great shape.
 
The tax code alone is up around 75,000 pages.

You find that your business has a competitor that got a lobbyist to include a provision that excludes your competition from minimum wage laws. [An actual case, just recently in the news.]

So, what do you do??? You will be forced out of business by a competitor who used a lobbyist. You will be forced to fire all of your employees. They will NOT be rehired by your competitor because he is far, far away … someplace like American Samoa … just to pick a place.

[What I would do is contact my member of Congress to see if I can get some equivalency worked out. Otherwise, I and all of my employees will be out on the street.]

But then that makes me a lobbyist.

[Most likely, I would not “personally” make the contact. I would hire someone in Washington who is with a law firm that also employs the spouse or child of my member of Congress.]

What do you do?

[And you don’t have much time in which to do it, by the way. Because your sales are dropping sharply because your costs are higher than your competitor’s costs and so your prices are too high. And you can’t really sell below cost.]
I know this wasn’t directed to me, but it’s starting to seem like your worldview places job creation (or preservation) as the most important thing, and every other decision in life must be made with the primary goal of creating or preserving a job. For example, you ask if the hypothetical business owner should engage in some shady political dealings to secure an exemption for his company on minimum wage laws. I think the VAST majority of Christians (and probably a vast majority of Americans regardless of their faith) would give that proposal a giant thumbs down if the question is as simple as that. Oh, but wait…some jobs might be at stake. (Ooos and Aahhs) Plus the other guy did it, so why not me? And I’ll only give you 5 seconds to decide. Talk about stacking the deck in favor of your desired answer, Monte…but let’s look at your proposal anyway.

First of all, I’m sorry, but creating or preserving jobs - I don’t care if it’s one job or a billion - does not give anyone immunity from acting morally. Obviously jobs are what some people care more about…but that doesn’t make it the “right” answer. As for the other details…who cares if “the other guy” got away with it? As I said in my earlier reply, Christ never promised us an advantage over our business competitors if we followed Him. In fact, he said we would face persecutions if we believe in Him and attempt to live morally. And even small children know what their parents will say if the only excuse for breaking a rule is “well gee…Bobby did it first”. Too bad kids can’t pull the job creation card, huh? :rolleyes:

Saying that time is a factor in this decision also doesn’t really matter. You’re just searching desperately for excuses to sacrifice morality on the altar of job creation. Our faith simply does not teach that.
 
There is a parable about judging YOURSELF and not others.

You are responsible for yourself and your minority age children.

No one else.

No one has the right to decide what others must do or not do or what kind of person they are or might be. Or whether those other people are working too hard … unless they ask you for your advice. Which isn’t the case here.

When someone wants my money, then I can assess whether they really need it or not, or if they are just too lazy to work.
 
. . . you know who really is to be pitied here are all the old Ayn Rand-Adam Smith libertarian types who invested so much emotion into “fighting the fight” for minimal government oversight of the marketplace. That whole perspective now stinks to the public!

It just makes sense. The only “invisible hand” that exists is the Hand of God. What we find, when we try to have a “money-only” system is that a melee develops. The rich get rich (because they buy legislative hands-offs and buy taxpayer subsidies). The poor get poor: they’re getting screwed.

Now, of course, the middle class is horribly injured, so some political noise is only now being raised.

100% in favor of capitalism that is free and fair. No crony capitalism for Captain America! End the despotism of the banksters.
 
If he has been investing for his retirement all along although his portfolio would be less than it was 3 years ago it would still be still far above what he put in. For example in 1980 the DOW was in the mid 700s-now its over 10,000.
So he’s SOL? OK that’s the response I expected. But why is it OK for the bigwigs in banking and investment to get multi-million dollar bonuses at the same time that people like you, me, and my brother take big losses in the value of our investments?
 
Correct. You haven’t lost anything until you sell. a person who started saving for his retirement at age 62 does indeed have a problem if they are now 65, and want to use . There investments to retire on. a person who started saving for their retirement when they were in their 20s is in great shape.
He didn’t start retirement saving in his 60’s. He started when 401ks and IRAs first started becoming available.
I’m guessing that you, estesbob, are not living off of retirement investment income or are going to have to in the next 3 years or so… am I right?
 
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