Octuplets

[Sarabande]

It isn’t fair to the older children to make them be the caretakers of their siblings. That is the parents’ job. Not being able to care for your own children is wrong, no matter who you pass them off to. Being able to pay for the kids doesn’t make it okay, but not being able to afford them makes it worse.

Yes and No. It depends on how much help a parent requests of the older children. For centuries parents have had lots and lots of children and have always relied on the older children to help take care of them. It wasn’t unusual, for instance to have between 10-20 children throughout various eras of history. Granted, half of them and maybe even more than half of them would sadly die from some disease before they would become adults or even before they reached the age of 5, but the older children were always considered as “Mommy’s little helper”. It didn’t mean that the parents loved their children any less or didn’t provide for them, but it did help to have the older children assist them.

What I never really agreed with, especially in reading about the aristocracy and royalty throughout the centuries is that the women, who would often have a huge number of children, wouldn’t breastfeed them and then just pass them off to the wetnurse and nanny. It was one of the reasons why they would be pregnant almost every year of their childbearing years. So these children would often not have much intimacy with their parents, but rather with their nannies and siblings. That was the culture, though.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

IVF is wrong, but so is having that many kids through natural means.

Are you saying that it is “wrong” for anyone to have 14 children? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

The problem is not particularly the number of children, although it would be impossible to have that number of children in that short a period of time by natural means.

And the problem is not that she implanted all the embryos instead of destroying them.

And the problem is not that she refused selective reduction to kill off some of the children in utero.

The problem is IVF. It turns children into commodities and denies them a natural father.

actually that has happened natural twice. once nearly a century ago to a poor catholic couple in canada. oh wait, that might have only been 6 at once…

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**otherwise I 100% agree. **

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

It isn’t fair to the older children to make them be the caretakers of their siblings.

I happen to agree, altho it depends how one defines “caretakers”…

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**however, I also think life isn’t always fair and whining won’t make it more fair. **

 

[browneyes106]

I feel sorry for the Suleman children. I’m very against people using IVF. It makes me mad that laws allowed a doctor to get a woman with no real financial stability various IVF treatments meanwhile single people or couples who are financially stable have to deal with various rules and regulations when they are trying to adopt children.

 

[Arwen037]

Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent. Yes, in other times women had 10+ children, but 30-50% died. And just because it has happened before doesn’t make it right. For example, women use to be property, that doesn’t make it right. It is still wrong.

By the way, the news just came out that the octuplets mother was on food stamps and has 3 children on disability pay. She is going back to school and plans to use student loans to support her family. She is going to rely on volunteers for daycare.

 

[honeysuckle]

I wonder why she didn’t choose adoption. I mean, there are soooo many kids out there needing good homes. I don’t think what she did was ‘wrong,’ per se, just seems to go in line with perhaps a narcisisstic personality, that wants as many ‘mini me’s’ as possible, but doesn’t realize the ramfications of such actions. I pray she does well as their mom though! And maybe a nice man will come along, marry her, and the kids will have a mom and dad to grow up with. The problem that I see with this whole thing…isn’t the IVF, isn’t the fact that this woman wanted to have so many kids, but more that we are becoming a society where men are being inched out of the way, for women to somehow emerge as these ‘super heroes,’ of sorts. It takes a mom and dad to effectively and positively raise children. I grew up with neither, as my parents died when I was 10…and believe me, it affected me negatively. I have friends who grew up with either dad or mom raising them, and they were negatively impacted, as well. It takes both a mom and dad to effectively and positively raise kids. Now, I mean a home that is healthy, and well adjusted. There are all kinds of abusive homes out there, with two parents.

So, it seems to me once again, we see here a case where radical feminism is rearing its ugly head to imply that ‘men are simply not needed,’ and thus removed completely from the equation. From that vantage point, this situation to me, is very sad.

Whatevergirl, I have to say I share your sense of bewilderment. I don’t feel anger at the octuplets’ mother, because she seems, as has been said already, misguided rather than calculating. I didn’t get a sense from the interview that she wanted to live off the system, she seemed very focus on finishing her Master’s (but I don’t think she’s ever going to get paid enough as a counselor to support the children). It was also clear she valued the life of her embryos so much that she wanted to make sure they were all born. It’s unfortuante that she didn’t have Catholic guidance on IVF, because this is exactly why the Church is against IVF. Too many people are in exactly this situation, where there are too many embryos and they cannot destroy the lives and live with themselves, but at the same time they can’t care and raise all of the embryos.

I hope more people will pray for her rather than demonize her and that there is a loving solution. Maybe she could find an open adopton situation where another family could take the octuplets while she raises the six she has, but she can continue to stay in their lives as an aunt. But it is presumptuous for me to say that, I don’t know how I would feel about giving away my babies.

One thing that I do want to say about what you said about single mothers, though, is that not everyone chooses to be a single mother. Husbands die. Husbands leave. Men refuse to marry women they’ve gotten pregnant.

It isn’t fair to judge all families with single parents as inferior and and causing harm to the children, or to even pity them. People make do in bad situations. Another thing that isn’t often said is that negative statistics are used in misleading ways about single parent households. They don’t take into account extended family support, the education and income of the parent, and the existence of close father and mother figures.

You know, the mother who had these children may have issues with narcissim, you’re right. But, how many mothers have similar issues or worse, and yet are married? Their problems get to remain hidden behind the social acceptabilty of the marriage. It seems to me that people who have never been single mothers love to scapegoat families without fathers, without knowing anything about the individuals themselves, how they got there, and how they are coping.

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent. Yes, in other times women had 10+ children, but 30-50% died. And just because it has happened before doesn’t make it right. For example, women use to be property, that doesn’t make it right. It is still wrong.

By the way, the news just came out that the octuplets mother was on food stamps and has 3 children on disability pay. She is going back to school and plans to use student loans to support her family. She is going to rely on volunteers for daycare.

While I agree that what this particular woman did is irresponsible and wrong especially with her background and lack of finances, etc, it doesn’t mean that other people who have 10 or more children are acting irresponsibly. There are families who can make it work and make it work well. (I believe, personally, I couldn’t do it, but I do know that others can) My father, for instance, was the physician for a Catholic family who had 21 children. I went to school with the two youngest and one of the grandchildren. (who was older than the youngest uncle) The family took care of each other - even to the point that many of the older ones and their spouses actually bought houses on the same street of their mother and where their younger siblings still lived. They were close, responsible and supportive of each other. And I believe that if we asked those children (now all adults) if they thought their parents were being selfish, cruel and negligent for having so many, they’d think we were crazy.

Believe me, I attended university in a part of the city that was surrounded by a poor, dangerous area which had many single-parent homes, mothers with lots of children and on welfare. We, as students, got to know some of these children in their schools where we had to be escorted by police. (It wasn’t a safe place outside of the campus.) I am very well aware of the irresponsbility of some of the parents and the sadness felt seeing these children imprisoned by their poverty and unsafe conditions. I would totally agree that these parents should have never had these kids. (I’m not saying that they should have had abortions and whatnot.)

But that doesn’t mean we should generalise by saying that it is absolutely wrong and irresponsible to have 10+ children no matter who you are. If the family can care for them well and support them well, I don’t see where the problem is. Some people do have the ability to do it, whereas others don’t even have the ability to care for one child.

 

[nogreaterjoy]

At this point the how/why and craziness of it needs to all be set aside. She choose life. That is something. Had she aborted 6 of the babies and it was in the news, would that then be the topic here??
IVF is intrisicly wrong, no doubt about it. Just needs to be stopped. Period.
to me the focus should be on praying for the health/safety of all the kiddos involved. And for the mother to have the strength to be capable/loving and responsible for all of her children now.
I know it is hard, this is one of the news of the day hot topics, but we need to remeber to be thankful for all of these tiny blessings and support the mother with our prayers. Time for what if’s stopped the second the first cell divided and human life began.
Hope this is not offensive, just trying to keep my own heart and mind on track in this as well!
hugs
God bless
Deb

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Are you saying that it is “wrong” for anyone to have 14 children? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent. Yes, in other times women had 10+ children, but 30-50% died. And just because it has happened before doesn’t make it right. For example, women use to be property, that doesn’t make it right. It is still wrong.

I am beyond thankful that, in her wisdom, our Church disagrees with you.

Our Church teaches that married couples are called to be open to fertility, and if God blesses them with a large family, how is that irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent? Nowhere in Sacred Scripture or the Catechism is it stated that large families are irresponsible, selfish, cruel, negligent, or any other negative adjective.

The number of children present in a home is not indicative of the irresponsibility, selfishness, cruelty, or negligence of the parents. I agree with Pope John Paul II – For married couples who can provide for them, large families are a reflection of the generosity of the parents, and a wonderful gift from God.

 

[yellowbird]

I am beyond thankful that, in her wisdom, our Church disagrees with you.

Our Church teaches that married couples are called to be open to fertility, and if God blesses them with a large family, how is that irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent? Nowhere in Sacred Scripture or the Catechism is it stated that large families are irresponsible, selfish, cruel, negligent, or any other negative adjective.

The number of children present in a home is not indicative of the irresponsibility, selfishness, cruelty, or negligence of the parents. I agree with Pope John Paul II – For married couples who can provide for them, large families are a reflection of the generosity of the parents, and a wonderful gift from God.

My husband is from a small town in Minnesota where large families were the norm. When I look through the old church picture directory when he was a teenager, it is filled with pages and pages of families with 14, 15, 16 kids. It’s BEAUTIFUL!! Those parents obviously trusted God. What a wonderful example for their children.

I had to laugh when my husband said that his family was considered “small” - only 5 kids. How times have changed?!

 

[MarieVeronica]

IVF is wrong, but so is having that many kids through natural means. In either case you are being selfish, and not considering what this will do to your children. IVF just makes this irresponsibility easier.

IVF is considered immoral in the Catholic Church, yes. But I don’t agree with the latter part of this statement.

One set of great-grandparents in my family had 13 children, through natural means. Another set of great-grandparents had 12. Years ago, large families like this were the norm… not the exception.

The “issue” being discussed in this thread, isn’t about the size of the family, the number of kids, etc… but rather, the MEANS and the MOTIVE by which this particular woman (who is unmarried) had the children.

God bless.

 

[funnyyetsavvy]

I think that what upsets me about this is that I read that the same father ‘fathered’ these children, and that he loves this woman and wanted to marry her, and she said no.

Also the fact that she refuses to consider herself on welfare, even though she recieves $490 a month plus the payments for the three children who have special needs who are from the older group of kids.

It is sad that today’s news is that people are threatening her and the children. Whether one agrees with what she did or not, the children did not ask for this…

 

[Katie1723]

Maybe the doctor who did the implanting should pay child support. I mean he had to have asked her how she would do that.
And he should pay her hospital bill too

Kathy

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Are you saying that it is “wrong” for anyone to have 14 children? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent.

**well now, nothing nice to say to that… **

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**glad to see others responded positively and spared me time in purgatory working off the rant I was tempted to post. **

 

[Angels_Unaware]

OH AND IF EVERYONE IS SO ANGRY AT THE TIME given for each child (comment from the poster who said each child needs more than 45 mins from their mom) so far I havent seen anyone tear down the Duggar Family. I have heard those children need to make and ‘appointment’ to have mom and dad time. That woman has had almost 20 kids…she isnt even 40 yet, her oldes son about 22 has gotten married and his new wife has been quoted as saying that she will follow dear MIL footsteps and have children until menopause.

Really, what’s very interesting to me is that there are OTHER multiple birth families where you could really argue that the parents were irresponsible to have the IVF or fertility drugs, because there was already one or two older siblings, and there were bad financial situations. I recall one where the dad was under-employed and the mother, for obvious reasons, did not work. They relied on lots and lots of donations by private companies and by individuals.

But NONE have been treated like this woman. Now, I am not by any means saying what she did is a good idea or that she doesn’t have some psychological issues. But, nobody has been threatened and scorned in public like her. Part of the reason why that hasn’t happened is that her situation is much more extreme, but I really think another part of the reason why people feel so very, very comfortable trashing her like this is because she’s single. It certainly makes the whole situation much worse because she’s single, there’s no doubt, but does she deserve to be treated so very, very differently than somewhat “irresponsible” married couples with 6-7 babies born at one time? Nobody ever criticizes those couples.

 

[lynnareyno]

But NONE have been treated like this woman. Now, I am not by any means saying what she did is a good idea or that she doesn’t have some psychological issues. But, nobody has been threatened and scorned in public like her. Part of the reason why that hasn’t happened is that her situation is much more extreme, but I really think another part of the reason why people feel so very, very comfortable trashing her like this is because she’s single. It certainly makes the whole situation much worse because she’s single, there’s no doubt, but does she deserve to be treated so very, very differently than somewhat “irresponsible” married couples with 6-7 babies born at one time? Nobody ever criticizes those couples.

Yes, I believe that she does deserve to be scorned because she is single. Children need/deserve a mother and a father although it is not always possible. However, to purposely bring a child( let alone 14) into the world without a father is more than just irresponsible, it is selfish. It is using the children as commodities , as property that make someone feel good. It is all a part of our " I want what I want regardless of what I have to do or who I have to hurt" society. I would even go so far as to suggest that it was sinful…
Let us pray for those poor innocent children!

 

[Sarabande]

Really, what’s very interesting to me is that there are OTHER multiple birth families where you could really argue that the parents were irresponsible to have the IVF or fertility drugs, because there was already one or two older siblings, and there were bad financial situations. I recall one where the dad was under-employed and the mother, for obvious reasons, did not work. They relied on lots and lots of donations by private companies and by individuals.

But NONE have been treated like this woman. Now, I am not by any means saying what she did is a good idea or that she doesn’t have some psychological issues. But, nobody has been threatened and scorned in public like her. Part of the reason why that hasn’t happened is that her situation is much more extreme, but I really think another part of the reason why people feel so very, very comfortable trashing her like this is because she’s single. It certainly makes the whole situation much worse because she’s single, there’s no doubt, but does she deserve to be treated so very, very differently than somewhat “irresponsible” married couples with 6-7 babies born at one time? Nobody ever criticizes those couples.

I do not believe threatening this woman is correct, although I believe that if the media focused on other couples who are in similar financial and even psychological situations, those couple might also be scorned and criticised in almost the same fashion. That said, I would agree that this is more of an outrage because of the fact she is a single woman with no money, will be relying on others for her care and her children’s care, etc. The media jumped right in on that when they found out and did turn it into a controversy. Whereas, perhaps with others who might have gotten some media attention, they would have spun it a different way to make it look like the parents were just down on their luck and were good people, thus creating compassion for the parents and the children. With this woman, there were so many conflicting stories regarding the entire situation that she was already branded as a liar. And perhaps she is. Perhaps she isn’t either and her words were being twisted. That said, after seeing her interview with Anne Curry, I really believe she does have psychological issues which need to be addressed. She and her children need lots of prayers.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Yes, I believe that she does deserve to be scorned because she is single. Children need/deserve a mother and a father although it is not always possible. However, to purposely bring a child( let alone 14) into the world without a father is more than just irresponsible, it is selfish. It is using the children as commodities , as property that make someone feel good. It is all a part of our " I want what I want regardless of what I have to do or who I have to hurt" society. I would even go so far as to suggest that it was sinful…
Let us pray for those poor innocent children!

It’s too bad that she never even tried to build a marriage so that her children would have a father.

The point is that because she is single, people feel comfortable calling her “sinful and selfish”, but if she were married, she might have been just as self-absorbed and narcissistic, but nobody would portray her that way.

That’s disturbing to me because we aren’t dealing with just the legitimate issues that deserve criticism, but the fact that people feel entirely justified in bullying her because she is single.

I am not discussing whether or not it is legitimate to criticize her as selfish for choosing to have children alone. I would say it probably is, but then, I also know a woman who was single and in her early 40s who adopted a child. I don’t think that was selfish.

What I am saying is that because she is single, people feel comfortable bullying her. She might have been just as selfish and narcissistic as a married woman, and nobody would bully her.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Do you know one more thing that bothers me… If she would have just implanted a couple embryos, maybe just given birth to one or two of them, and destroyed the rest, even if people would have known she destroyed the rest, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But since she actually implanted every single embryo they “created” for her, everyone is up in arms. Either way, the root of the problem was that these embryos were created in a manner totally contrary to natural law, in an immoral manner, thus allowing for a situation that should not have occured. Once they were created, why do so many people think it was so much worse for these babies to be born as opposed to left frozen somewhere perhaps to be used for experiments, totally contrary to human dignity, and destroyed. I do agree that implanting 6 at once sounds risky (although the guideline for women 40 and over is at most 5, so there is a chance that even following the guidelines, a woman could end up with a large number of children at once), but I don’t know what the reasoning behind it was (she said they had done it before and never had such a large pregnancy, she also wanted to make sure she implanted them all). My point is, had a woman in her same situation decided to create the same amount of embryos but just have one child and destroy the rest, it wouldn’t have been a big deal, and some might have even thought it was great that a woman could “fulfill” herself or what not without even needing a man. I don’t know what the solution to all these frozen embryos is, except for DON’T create them to begin with!