Octuplets

[Rob_s_Wife]

I should clarify…Rob’s wife…when I say “work with” I mean on committees for conferences, as team members. We had a family who had 8 children, and counting, on our team for planning a conference that would have had a broader interest regarding the Theology of the Body.

**hmm. well to be fair it’s MY experience that TotB talk is rarely more broad than promoting NFP. Which is very annoying. I have no issue with couples who use NFP. I do have an issue with NFP being touted as a must for every marriage. Maybe they were just as annoyed by that… **

The mother made several deragotory comments about the size of some of our families being “too small” and how she couldn’t justify to God on her last day if she only had two or three kids.

well that was just rude.

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The father, as we went around the table introducing ourselves, proclaimed that he knew nothing about NFP nor did he ever see the need for any of us to as it’s God’s will only.

**maybe, just maybe (don’t know wasn’t there) it’s possivle he mean “us” as in he and his wife feel that way for them and not “us” as in the entire catholic population? **

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In answer to the “prideful” question–it’s not the show --though there have been some preachy moments. But there’s been a few news segements in which they’ve pushed some comments that I find to be “oh, aren’t we the best? Aren’t we perfect?” And there are some subtle passing judgement things I’ve picked up on .

they are allowed their opinion.
**we are allowed to not agree with them **

I guess I should not comment (or judge!) but I would not chose to live like them.

sure you can judge that it’s not for you, just as I have done.

 

[Col40]

Lerin–in reading your post to Arwen, can we agree that not everyone is called to have a large family? And can we agree that free will is also a gift from God that allows us to determine what the right size for our family is based on just reasons?

I realize a lot of families who have many children feel defensive and judged, but so do those of us who do not choose to continually expand our families, yet still consider ourselves to be good Catholics. Bottom line–God has a plan for each of us, but we also have free will—you chose to be continually open to life, I chose to use the signs He gives us regarding our fertility to avoid or achieve pregnancy through NFP. That does not make either of us more Catholics than the other. If you want to have 12 kids—God bless you and your family. Please realize that’s not for all women, all couples. Two children for me is a perfect size; if God decided to surprise me (I’m not always perfect with looking for my signs when I’m busy or rushed!), then we’d welcome another life into our family. But I’m actively doing more to avoid than to achieve as we’re in our 40s and both of my previous pregnancies were high risk–which coupled with maternal age could present more issues.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I have only three siblings. My parents are divorced, and my mom re-married, so I actually have 3 parents. If my parents don’t have enough time for me,

maybe your parents do have the time and spend it elsewhere
maybe you are a needy child
maybe you are getting enough time and don’t know it
maybe not everyone lives/feels the same as you and your parents

After that to be able to afford the kids you have to start NEGLECTING them.

bull. Not one of my children has ever been neglected in their life.

If you have a child YOU should care for it the majority of the time, not force your older children to, that is SELFISH.

And I happen to care for all my children the majority of the time.
My older children do not do it.
Selfish is to be so self absorbed one would begrudge the very birth of another because it would take away from their precious self.

people say it’s not fair that we’re criticizing her, and not others, and I say I’m criticizing them all, people have a problem with that. Make up your mind.

It is one thing to be critical of those committing a sin, such as purposely having a a child out of wedlock and IVF.

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It is entirely another to be critical of a married mother simply because God has given her more children than you would want or deem acceptable to you. Just because you disagree is does not make her a sinner or even a bad mother.

But if we are suppose to have lots and lots of children, who plans to criticize Mary? She had only one child.

Good grief no one has said everyone is supposed to have lots of children or that anyone should criticize Mary.
Mary had one because that was God’s plan for her.
I have 9 because that’s God plan for me.

Yes the Bible tells us to be fruitful and multiple, but that doesn’t mean we are called to have more children than we can care for.

It means we are called to have the children God desires for us. That might mean none. It might mean a baker’s dozen. It could mean anythign in between there.

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And caring for is more than just paying for. It is sitting down at bedtime and reading stories. It is teaching children to ride their two-wheelers. It is listening to our children tell us about their fears, their day, the silly story they thought of. When you have tons of kids, how do you find time for all that? If you have can afford a kid, but only by working 18 hours a day, then you shouldn’t have one because you can’t care for them.

You ask more of parents than God or even his Church.
All a parent needs do is raise their child in the faith and to follow God.
Anything more than that is gravy at best.
And without that, all the other stuff doesn’t mean diddly.

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Aside from that very important observation…

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It is entirely possible to do those things with more than 3 - 5 children.

 

[Dakota_Maverick]

Not everyone who disapproves of Octo-mom is stating the cost as the reason. And certainly even those who talk about cost do not see Obama or Pelosi’s solutions as the answer.

Octomom’s issues raise the question of the creation of life in artificial circumstances. Ultimately, the decision did lie with her–but was it for healthy reasons? Based on her interviews, and what has been published, I think her motives were questionable. Plus, let’s not forget that these children are being denied a father…that role has been delegated nothing more than “sperm donor”…that disturbs me as much as anything.

Way too many of my Catholic brothers and sisters are using the
thought patterns of todays media/political agendas and are often discussing such life situations according to the points the liberals want made most prominant, the idea that kids are something you can put a price tag on along with all life, and that as humans we should be able to have control over life.

The morals should be discussed according to Catholic teaching and statements accusing doctors and discussing costs of kids to society are really liberal conversations. I am just trying to point out that there are many comments being made that show how tainted many of are especially when it comes to how we’ve allowed the media to influence us.

God is the word; an indication of the power of words and the serpents most cunning and lethal weapon has been the mis-use of words and I wanted to point out that it’s not okay to sum up children as a financial amount nor to put the blame on her doctor.

that’s my .02

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I have only three siblings. My parents are divorced, and my mom re-married, so I actually have 3 parents. If my parents don’t have enough time for me, how can a couple with that many, or more kids have time?

Rob’s wife already answered your post well, so I am not going to address the other points, but I too have 3 siblings. My father died when I was 3 (we were 7, 5, 3, and 1) and my mother raised us, 1 parent. She had enough time for all of us. She took great care of all of us, all 4 of us. God called my dad to be with Him earlier than we would have wanted, but it was all part of His plan for my family. She was more aware of what we were up to, was there for us more, and sacrificed more for us than many of my friends who had 2, or even 3 or 4 “parents” through divorce etc like you mentioned. We all went to college and graduated, we have all been blessed with growing up in the Catholic faith, learning about our Church. It all has to do with seeking God’s will and doing our best to try to follow what He is calling us to do. Our Church teaches us that large families are a blessing. It doesn’t say we are all called to have them (some people are even called to bear the difficult cross of infertility, something many of us have no idea of how difficult it must be, and we definitely know that the value of their suffering is immense). It doesn’t say that only special annointed, gifted people are called to have large families either. Each couple has to prayerfully discern what God is calling them to do, and trust in Him, knowing that His plan is always the best.

 

[beanz]

Dear All,
I, too, have been wondering and pondering upon this question. on one hand I see the people for abortion using this as an argument, and on th other hand I see the pro life using this question also. Perhaps this is a delimma that God wants us to pray and fast over. this did just occur right at Lent. Perhaps entering int a deep prayer life concerning this subject, may be just what the Lord is after. Many of us like to stand on the front lines of our issues and scream and holler and do things to bring attention to our causes. Maybe God is wanting more prayer. I do believe that prayer can move mountains and soften hardened hearts. I’ll continue to pray on this question, and maybe hopefully be less judgmental.
Beanz:

 

[Col40]

**hmm. well to be fair it’s MY experience that TotB talk is rarely more broad than promoting NFP. Which is very annoying. I have no issue with couples who use NFP. I do have an issue with NFP being touted as a must for every marriage. Maybe they were just as annoyed by that… **

Actually, this couple approached the director of NFP about bringing this speaker in…that’s why we were on the committee with them, as it was to be in conjunction with our annual NFP conference. But I can see that if you are not practicing NFP, you might see some of the TOtB talks being more in support of that. I think it depends more on the speaker and what they believe, therefore how they interpret. Our NFP director tried to find speakers who embraced both NFP couples and providentialist couples–which is why the conferences attracted both. I never heard the NFP couples sit in judgement of the couples who had large families, but I did hear a lot of comments about how parents who only wanted two or three kids were “lazy”, “not open to life”, “shamefully, bad Catholics”, “everyone can do it, they dont’ want to sacrifice”, “they’ll be judged on their last day.” Like I said, one was sooo bad that a priest–a wonderful supporter of the TOtB (which few even bother with) just got blasted when he tried to show support for families who have less children.

**maybe, just maybe (don’t know wasn’t there) it’s possivle he mean “us” as in he and his wife feel that way for them and not “us” as in the entire catholic population? **

No–he meant all Catholics…we didn’t misread him…they held some very strong beliefs, which they are entitled to, but I wasn’t so sure I wanted to work with them after that.

 

[Lerin]

Lerin–in reading your post to Arwen, can we agree that not everyone is called to have a large family? And can we agree that free will is also a gift from God that allows us to determine what the right size for our family is based on just reasons?

I realize a lot of families who have many children feel defensive and judged, but so do those of us who do not choose to continually expand our families, yet still consider ourselves to be good Catholics. Bottom line–God has a plan for each of us, but we also have free will—you chose to be continually open to life, I chose to use the signs He gives us regarding our fertility to avoid or achieve pregnancy through NFP. That does not make either of us more Catholics than the other. If you want to have 12 kids—God bless you and your family. Please realize that’s not for all women, all couples. Two children for me is a perfect size; if God decided to surprise me (I’m not always perfect with looking for my signs when I’m busy or rushed!), then we’d welcome another life into our family. But I’m actively doing more to avoid than to achieve as we’re in our 40s and both of my previous pregnancies were high risk–which coupled with maternal age could present more issues.

Col, did you read my response? Are you sure you are referring to the right person?

My post said, “Arwen, the problem is that you are basing your opinion on only your circumstances and what YOU think a family can manage. Your situation is unique… as are all of us.”

I also said, “My husband Adam and I have no moral issue with NFP” and “I don’t know if God has planned this to be our last or if he is calling us to 12 or more. I don’t know, and I don’t need to know. We just take one blessing at a time, and if in the future we feel GOD’S call to limit our family, we will. Until then, we are open to His control over our fertility.”

Finally, I said, “I definitely do not say that “everyone is supposed to” have a large family. But you cannot say that you know the proper number of children that each family is to have.”

I’m not sure why you are asking me if I can agree that not everyone is called to a large family. I think that was all over my post… as well as saying that I DON’T KNOW how many children I will have.

I said I have no problem at all with NFP, but that we aren’t being called to use it right now to limit our family.

What was your issue with my post? I honestly don’t understand why you’re defending yourself to me or addressing me with this post. You said you read my words. I just don’t know how you misintepreted me that far.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

**hmm. well to be fair it’s MY experience that TotB talk is rarely more broad than promoting NFP. Which is very annoying. I have no issue with couples who use NFP. I do have an issue with NFP being touted as a must for every marriage. Maybe they were just as annoyed by that… **

Actually, this couple approached the director of NFP about bringing this speaker in…that’s why we were on the committee with them, as it was to be in conjunction with our annual NFP conference. But I can see that if you are not practicing NFP, you might see some of the TOtB talks being more in support of that. I think it depends more on the speaker and what they believe, therefore how they interpret. Our NFP director tried to find speakers who embraced both NFP couples and providentialist couples–which is why the conferences attracted both. I never heard the NFP couples sit in judgement of the couples who had large families, but I did hear a lot of comments about how parents who only wanted two or three kids were “lazy”, “not open to life”, “shamefully, bad Catholics”, “everyone can do it, they dont’ want to sacrifice”, “they’ll be judged on their last day.” Like I said, one was sooo bad that a priest–a wonderful supporter of the TOtB (which few even bother with) just got blasted when he tried to show support for families who have less children.

**maybe, just maybe (don’t know wasn’t there) it’s possivle he mean “us” as in he and his wife feel that way for them and not “us” as in the entire catholic population? **

No–he meant all Catholics…we didn’t misread him…they held some very strong beliefs, which they are entitled to, but I wasn’t so sure I wanted to work with them after that.

Pope JPII, the auther of TOtB, and our Church for that matter, embraced both using NFP (the beauty of NFP) for serious/just reasons and not using NFP, its not an either or thing. Anyways, when Pope Benedict first became Pope, one of his first messages had to do with asking people to be moer generous and open to larger families. It is a reality, NFP can be misused, it is possible to use it selfishly etc, maybe this couple had been talking to people that were taking the attitude of NFP=Catholic Contraception, people who did not understand the beauty of NFP being used correctly, and maybe they were too strong or general in their addressing this issue. Or maybe they personally did not understand the Church’s teachings that allow for couple to use NFP if necessary. I know the first person to ever talk to me about NFP was a Catholic school teacher who had been using it for 12 or 13 years (well, she had been using the rhythm method which isn’t technically NFP, but it was a natural way to avoid) and then became pregnant. She was telling us she decided to get “fixed” after that because she had only wanted one child and wanted to make sure no other pregnancy was possible.

 

[Lerin]

Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent.

My post was in effort to respond to Arwen’s statement that having a large family even by natural means, within a Catholic marriage, was irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent.

That is an extremely harsh and upsetting judgement, which we expect to find in the mainstream culture but not on a Catholic board.

Initially, I was really upset by this, but hearing the basis of her argument (on her own broken home and unhappy childhood) I thought she was probably just young and dealing with the aftermath of that… not really able to make a logical or spiritual pronouncementon the morality of having a large family on spiritual or theological or scriptural grounds.

It just hit me a few minutes ago to check her profile myself… and sure enough, she is a young, unmarried college student 20ish.

When it comes to asking whether a family can care for, love, provide for, and nurture many children… I tend to value the opinion of a mother of nine who is living her Catholic faith over that of a young woman who has not seen a positive example in her own family.

My feelings are no longer hurt, I was just attempting to help her see another side to life and warning her to be careful of juding something Godly and good (prayerful discernment and accepting more children) as something evil.

I have “just” 4, and don’t know how many more (if any more) we will have. I have no moral problem with NFP when it is used as the Church teaches (with a serious reason,which is different for EVERY family). My saying God isn’t calling me to limit my family with NFP at this time is in no way saying anything against those who do! If you read that into my words, it is due to your misperception not a reflection of my heart.

 

[Sarabande]

I have only three siblings. My parents are divorced, and my mom re-married, so I actually have 3 parents. If my parents don’t have enough time for me, how can a couple with that many, or more kids have time? Maybe if one parent is making enough that the other doesn’t have to work you could have a couple more. But that’s about it. After that to be able to afford the kids you have to start NEGLECTING them.

As someone else stated, I think you are basing your view too much on your own, unfortunate situation and not looking at the broader picture and understanding that each family is unique. This is something that can’t be generalised. Your parents, unfortunately, are apparently (based on the view you have presented) people who could not handle raising more than one child. Perhaps they weren’t even people who should have had children at all. I don’t know and it’s definitely not my place to assume since I don’t know all sides of the story and the entire situation. I’m sincerely sorry about your situation. I have many friends from broken families and their stories tend to be similar to yours, so I can understand why you feel that way.

And caring for is more than just paying for.

I agree with you here.

It is sitting down at bedtime and reading stories. It is teaching children to ride their two-wheelers. It is listening to our children tell us about their fears, their day, the silly story they thought of. When you have tons of kids, how do you find time for all that?

I’m the oldest of three children. My experience was extremely different from yours. Both of my parents were always there for me and my two siblings. They did all the loving things that parents are expected to. My father is one of 6, my mother is one of 10 (although one died in the Philippines from peumonia during WWII). And guess what? Those kids did not feel neglected. My mother is from a different culture and country and in her culture, family always come first no matter what. This was instilled in us as well.

My father’s father would sometimes have to work 2 or 3 jobs when the factory would go on strike while my grandmother cared for the children. EVERY SINGLE ONE of my uncles and aunt always talk about how much love and commitment they had for all them growing up and did not feel neglected. They had “charmed” childhoods and they were a humble, blue collar family. But the important key to this is that my grandparents instilled family first and the strength of family bonds. And this has been passed down to the next generations. They may have not always agreed on everything, but the commitment to family is extremely strong. And it is noticed by others outside of our family. I’ve found out from friends and even from my own husband that they were sometimes jealous of my family because of how close and loving we all were - something many of them did not have or wanted more of. Some would even tell me that they wished my family could “adopt” them. (these are grown adults) And in a way, our family does that. We “adopt” anyone who is close to us.

If you have can afford a kid, but only by working 18 hours a day, then you shouldn’t have one because you can’t care for them.

Sorry… but this is not always the case. Case point 1 - my grandfather. Case point 2 - my father. He worked 16 hour days for many years which was required of his profession as a doctor. My siblings and I have discussed this over the years and I can say with complete honesty that I have never once felt neglected by him. AGAIN - the issue of the strong belief of family first and strong family bonds. He was there for us to help with our math and science after he’d come home around 11:00 or midnight, he woke us up in the morning to get ready for school, he read us bedtime stories on the weekends and spent almost all his off time with us. He was always there to listen and he was the first person I’d go to for advice, to tell him about the boys I liked, to share with him my dreams, stories, aspirations and the like. Perhaps not all fathers can be like this, but it disproves the belief that all people who work that many hours would be neglectful of their children. My mother worked with my father, but was able to leave to be with us in the afternoons after school. Everything we did was as a family as well.

Again, the most important fact is that they put us FIRST and that is why we never felt neglected. Basically I would say, and I know many others who know them would say that my parents are perhaps the most selfless, loving and generous people around. And I believe myself to be one of the most fortunate of children of parents like that.

Just for the record, I’m not saying that everyone should have large families. I gave my own personal experience to make a point that one cannot make a sweeping, general comment that all parents of large families are selfish and neglectful OR even are always loving and responsible. We can’t just base a belief on what happened to us personally. It also has to be based on other people’s experience. So, just because my family and myself had a “charmed” childhood with wonderful parents, I also know that other people have not. And I have mentioned both sides in my previous post with my father’s patients and then the children I worked with in the city surrounding my university. Some people can only handle one child and other can handle up to 20. Some two-parent households can’t even handle one child, whereas some single-parent households can handle 5. Again, it all depends on the individual people and the unique situations that they are in.

 

[Col40]

It is a reality, NFP can be misused, it is possible to use it selfishly etc, maybe this couple had been talking to people that were taking the attitude of NFP=Catholic Contraception, people who did not understand the beauty of NFP being used correctly.

See–here’s the rub—who is to judge who is using NFP correctly, who is using it “selfishly” and claim that someone who uses NFP to avoid a pregancy or space children is not “Catholic” enough? That was what I felt these couples did at these conferences–they made determinations about families with two or three children and decided that if they were avoiding pregnancy, they must be “selfish”. It’s like–unless you had a serious illness, or had major life constraints (like job loss, etc.), or some other OBVIOUS reason why you didn’t have more children that THEY (meaning the large family groups) thought was an acceptable reason not to have more children–well, then–you were “selfish”. I believe my reasons for not having more than two children are not up for anyone to judge other than God and quite honestly, if He wanted me to have more children, my husband and I would have probably been more open to frequently using fertile days as well because both times we did become pregnant, it was with great discernment and asking for God’s wisdom.

And Lerin–I thought your post to Arwen was harsh–that poster . And I was being defensive in that I feel like there is a certain amount of “if you don’t want a large family, you’re not Catholic enough” tone to this post in general.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Actually, this couple approached the director of NFP about bringing this speaker in…that’s why we were on the committee with them, as it was to be in conjunction with our annual NFP conference. But I can see that if you are not practicing NFP, you might see some of the TOtB talks being more in support of that. I think it depends more on the speaker and what they believe, therefore how they interpret. Our NFP director tried to find speakers who embraced both NFP couples and providentialist couples–which is why the conferences attracted both. I never heard the NFP couples sit in judgement of the couples who had large families, but I did hear a lot of comments about how parents who only wanted two or three kids were “lazy”, “not open to life”, “shamefully, bad Catholics”, “everyone can do it, they dont’ want to sacrifice”, “they’ll be judged on their last day.” Like I said, one was sooo bad that a priest–a wonderful supporter of the TOtB (which few even bother with) just got blasted when he tried to show support for families who have less children.

No–he meant all Catholics…we didn’t misread him…they held some very strong beliefs, which they are entitled to, but I wasn’t so sure I wanted to work with them after that.

oh my. how rude.

maybe this couple had been talking to people that were taking the attitude of NFP=Catholic Contraception, people who did not understand the beauty of NFP being used correctly, and maybe they were too strong or general in their addressing this issue. Or maybe they personally did not understand the Church’s teachings that allow for couple to use NFP if necessary.

well regardless of their reasoning, they sure didn’t win any supporters with that attitude and rude comments.

 

[Lerin]

And Lerin–I thought your post to Arwen was harsh–that poster . And I was being defensive in that I feel like there is a certain amount of “if you don’t want a large family, you’re not Catholic enough” tone to this post in general.

I ask you to reread it, then. I did, and there was nothing rude, harsh, or degrading about any size of family.

I was overexplaining myself, in attempt to help her get past the judgement that all large families are selfish, cruel, irresponsible, and negligent. THAT I call harsh, and it deserved a direct answer.

Saying that I am following God’s call for MY life is not saying anything about yours.

I still don’t understand what in my post was offensive to you. I laid my heart bare, in attempt to get some understanding. Your reply to me was full of condescension, saying if I want 12 kids that’s great, but please understand that isn’t for everyone. Nowhere in my post did I say it was…

 

[Col40]

Arwen, the problem is that you are basing your opinion on only your circumstances and what YOU think a family can manage. Your situation is unique… as are all of us. I’m sorry your parents didn’t have time to read bedtime stories and ride bikes… but that has less to do with the “number” of children they had and maybe more with the life circumstances, talents, and God’s call.

A lot of what shapes us as people comes from our experience. The poster is making a determination based on the parenting choices they will make, and because of what he or she experienced as a child, has hard feelings toward some of the parenting decisions of the Duggars and Octomom–that is their experience, their witness—we all base on opinions on that so that poster should not have been taking to task for sharing–IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

((But as a couple in serious prayer and discernment, we do not have a serious/grave reason to avoid a pregnancy. And no desire to, either. I am currenty expecting our fourth, and am 27 years old. I don’t know if God has planned this to be our last or if he is calling us to 12 or more. I don’t know, and I don’t need to know. We just take one blessing at a time, and if in the future we feel GOD’S call to limit our family, we will. Until then, we are open to His control over our fertility.))

So are saying that those of us who chose to limit our family size without “serious/grave” reason aren’t listening to God’s call? That’s what I took away from this. And yes, maybe you said US–but as you’ve read, my experience has been–that those who speak of God’s will are speaking as if they speak for God to everyone else. How does anyone really, really know God’s will for them or for anyone else? Seriously. I know people who quite honestly have missed their callings so to speak…like I guy I know who was in the seminary,was planning to be a priest–left to get married. Oh, he made it clear he and his wife wouldn’t even practice NFP(he knew I did)–no need, God’s will. Yet, anytime I ever saw him with his wife—he was downright unpleasant and mean (others observed it, too) where in other situations, he was a pretty nice guy. Conversely, when I would talk to him about married life, casually of course, he would be all sarcastic about his wife’s Martha Stewart-like qualities, but if he was asked about his seminarian life–he was almost wistful. I’ve since lost touch with him, but I hear about what he’s up to now and again—and I feel like, based on past conversations about his wishes for life–he’s sold out on a lot them so that his wife can stay home and have as many kids as God wants her to have–and I can’t help wonder, based on the observations–if this was really “God’s will”. My point–and I do have one–is we don’t know, we can only do what we feel is right–and sometimes when I hear–it’s God’s will, not mine, I can’t help but think—hmmm…God gives you free will to decide. I know I would not have been a good mother to more children. Those extras you talk about are necessities to our life–two cars, extra opportunities for my kids, Catholic school for my kids, occassional dining out–and I don’t think I live ostentasiously either.

((I am radically different than the rest of the world, and that is okay with me. I am a homeschooling, at-home mother who is dedicated to the Catholic faith. I have a college degree, but choose not to work for money but for God. I don’t expect the world to understand that, but I thought other Catholics could!))

Again, if we do work for money AND God, does that make us bad?

((I definitely do not say that “everyone is supposed to” have a large family. But you cannot say that you know the proper number of children that each family is to have.))

Arwen never said the proper number either–all that was said was if you can’t care for kids—more than just financially–in that poster’s opinion, postponing a family would be a better solution.

((The Bible also says, Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil. You have to be careful about your judgements on others. They are hurtful and they are not prayerful or Biblical. Again, I know I cannot change your mind, but I will pray for you.))

I feel that way about large families who judge those who chose to have less children for reasons which they do not have to defend to anyone.

Just be careful, dear sister in Christ. I know you do not know the hurt your words are causing.

Back at ya. You took what she/he (I’m not sure if Arwen is male or female) but I also took some of what you said to heart as well.

 

[Col40]

well regardless of their reasoning, they sure didn’t win any supporters with that attitude and rude comments.

Nope…I always have to say, I feel like couples who practice NFP but have smaller families are sort of in a neverland when it comes to support. Here–they’re practicing their faith in that they don’t use contraception, they haven’t gone to the extreme of sterilization once they’ve determined their families are the right size, which makes fertile days all that more frustrating On the one hand, they have the head shaking from those who have chosen contraception or sterilization (again, I don’t judge them–it’s between them and God–I can only share my own witness). On the other hand, they have critics who claim that they’re being “selfish” for not trying to acheive more pregnancies and using “Catholic contraception”–a term I hate since by staying faithful to the teachings but by doing what’s right for our family dynamic, there is a sacrifice in abstinance. If I was going to use “contraception”–I’d use something that didn’t involve abstaining from sex–KWIM?

The take-away–we all have our own witness experience, our own decisions–nothing is one size fits all (I know you said that to an extent Lerin, but you put more of it in God’s hands and I say that’s a choice, too). None of us should judge, big family, small family.

 

[Lerin]

PART ONE:

Thanks for the point-by-point breakdown. I understand now what you mean, and can answer you.

A lot of what shapes us as people comes from our experience. The poster is making a determination based on the parenting choices they will make, and because of what he or she experienced as a child, has hard feelings toward some of the parenting decisions of the Duggars and Octomom–that is their experience, their witness—we all base on opinions on that so that poster should not have been taking to task for sharing–IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Actually, Arwen was not specifically sticking to Nadya Suleman (I think the term OctoMom is odd) and the Duggar’s. She said,even in reference to Catholic families that having so many children isselfish, irresponsible, neglectful, and CRUEL

So are saying that those of us who chose to limit our family size without “serious/grave” reason aren’t listening to God’s call? That’s what I took away from this.

We are called to practice NFP only with “Serious/Grave” and “Just” reason. This is not my opinion, but based on the teaching of our Church.

If, then, there are serious motives to space out births, which derive from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions, the Church teaches that it is then licit to take into account the natural rhythms immanent in the generative functions…* [Pope Paul VI, Humanae Vitae 16] **

For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality. **[Catechism of the Catholic Church 2368] **
*

Through searching our (my husband and my) hearts, and doing a LOT of prayer and study on what constitutes a grave/serious/just reason, we found for our family, there is not one at this time. Therefore, it would not be morally right for us (my husband and I) to use NFP at this time.

If you’re interested, I can link you to the USCCB’s article on this matter.

And yes, maybe you said US–but as you’ve read, my experience has been–that those who speak of God’s will are speaking as if they speak for God to everyone else. How does anyone really, really know God’s will for them or for anyone else?

I would NEVER presume to tell you what the will of God is for your life, nor of anyone else.

I don’t understand how speaking of my husband and I striving to follow His will for us somehow means I am saying that will apllies to the rest of the world too.

How do we know God’s will? There are lots of ways to discern His will for your own life… praying,studying, and reading helps me the most. Adoration and Daily Mass are great for me to hear His voice. I also recommend Matthew Kelley’s “Rhythm of Life” and Michael Scanlan’s “What Does God Want?”

Placing God at the center of our (my and my husband’s) life has made the seemingly difficult questions of this life seem much easier… so much more clear. Whether it was to homeschool or not (I was initially dead set against it, but I do say God changed my heart there!) or to be open to life or not. There are times when our feelings don’t necessarily agree, but Jesus tells us, “Ask and it shall be granted. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened.” I don’t think He meant we could ask for whatever material thing we fancied at the moment, but He asked us to seek Him with all of our hearts, and promised that we WOULD find Him if we did.

Those extras you talk about are necessities to our life–two cars, extra opportunities for my kids, Catholic school for my kids, occassional dining out–and I don’t think I live ostentasiously either.

That financial part of my original post was directed at Arwen, saying, After that to be able to afford the kids you have to start NEGLECTING them. I was saying my children are getting physical and financial needs met, as well as emotional. I was saying I don’t consider these extras to be a reason to limit my family size. What I deem as an "extra"in my life will be different than you or anyone else!!! Look at Franciscan nuns and monks… what they deem “necessary” will be bare minimum… but I don’t take offense at them. I don’t understand how my life applies to you in this regard.

Again, if we do work for money AND God, does that make us bad?

Honestly, I feel you are trying to pick a fight here. Maybe I am misreading you, but does it really offend you when I say I am not currently working for monetary gain but dedicating all waking hours to God through service of my family and prayer? I said I was working for God rather than money and that I get a lot of crticism for that in “the world.” I hold a degree and can significantly financially contribute to my family, but that is not my place right now. That is not saying ANYTHING about what other people do… I am speaking of my vocation only.

 

[Lerin]

PART TWO:

Arwen never said the proper number either–all that was said was if you can’t care for kids—more than just financially–in that poster’s opinion, postponing a family would be a better solution.

NO…that is incorrect. She said, I have only three siblings… If my parents don’t have enough time for me, how can a couple with that many, or more kids have time? Maybe if one parent is making enough that the other doesn’t have to work you could have a couple more. But that’s about it.

Three kids, plus “a couple more” and that’s it. Anymore, in her opinion, is neglect. That sounds like a number to me.

From Lerin: ((The Bible also says, Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil. You have to be careful about your judgements on others. They are hurtful and they are not prayerful or Biblical. Again, I know I cannot change your mind, but I will pray for you.))

I feel that way about large families who judge those who chose to have less children for reasons which they do not have to defend to anyone.

I agree. My post had nothing to do with the morality of “small” families.

In earlier posts, (check page 5) Arwen said, IVF is wrong, but so is having that many kids through natural means. In either case you are being selfish, and not considering what this will do to your children.

When asked directly, “Are you saying that it is “wrong” for anyone to have 14 children? Or am I misunderstanding you?” She reiterates: Yes, I am saying it is wrong. It is irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent. Yes, in other times women had 10+ children, but 30-50% died. And just because it has happened before doesn’t make it right. For example, women use to be property, that doesn’t make it right. It is still wrong.

Did you not see the earlier posts? That is where my very direct tone came from. Being called irresponsible, selfish, cruel, and negligent and told it is WRONG, means she is judging large families as SINFUL. That is definitely a reason to be defensive, especially on a Catholic board.

I am sorry you took offense at some of my words. Please know my response top Arwen was just that… a response to HER saying it is wrong, irresponsible, selfish, and cruel to have so many children. I never called smaller families sinful, and never would…because that is NOT in my heart at all.

As I said, this may be our last. We will prayerfully discern what to do next when my fertility returns after having and nursing our fourth.

God bless you, and I hope that my answers have healed some misperceptions and hurt. I am trying to understand where you are coming from… it really helps me learn so much by talking to other Catholic moms. I hope you understand that my point is not to hurt or upset you, but to come to understand one another even if we disagree.

Have a wonderful day and thanks again for responding.

 

[Lerin]

The take-away–we all have our own witness experience, our own decisions–nothing is one size fits all (I know you said that to an extent Lerin, but you put more of it in God’s hands and I say that’s a choice, too). None of us should judge, big family, small family.

I agree. We are not “providentialists” though… I don’t think it is very Catholic at all to just say, “God will give us as many children as He wants us to have” even if that means the mother’s health is in peril, the children go unprovided for, etc. That can also be just as selfish as deciding to be “child-free” by choice to live in a million dollar home on the beach… you know?

When I say we’re leaving it up to God, I’m saying that when my fertility returns, we will prayerfully discern what to do next. There may very well be a grave/serious/just reason at that time, or there may not. I cannot divine the future, I just know that spending time in prayer and asking God to help us make our choices is never a bad plan.

 

[Col40]

I agree. We are not “providentialists” though… I don’t think it is very Catholic at all to just say, “God will give us as many children as He wants us to have” even if that means the mother’s health is in peril, the children go unprovided for, etc. That can also be just as selfish as deciding to be “child-free” by choice to live in a million dollar home on the beach… you know?

When I say we’re leaving it up to God, I’m saying that when my fertility returns, we will prayerfully discern what to do next. There may very well be a grave/serious/just reason at that time, or there may not. I cannot divine the future, I just know that spending time in prayer and asking God to help us make our choices is never a bad plan.

I get the part about child-free and million dollar beach home… Again, they get to answer to God on that end. I do question when I teach pre-cana how some couples can come in with the CFBC attitude and yet want the sacrament of marriage…it’s sort of “why?” (usually the answer is something related to who is paying for the wedding…I just always pray that time will change their hearts…KWIM?)

I do agree with all you’ve said in this post. I do pray, too for discernment—that’s how my first child came to be…and it’s never a bad plan.

Meanwhile, what is a bad plan is how much I’ve gotten into this board today!!!