ODD Behavior from Reader/ Server/ EMHC/ Usher

[Charioteer]

In my opinion, this is not a situation in which you should involve the bishop. Our bishops are busy enough already. A layman adding a word to the Our Father, though wrong, is not something a bishop should be spending his time on.

Obviously I am not going to get the bishop involved. The pastor knows what’s going on.

He’s not trying to upset anyone by the sound of it. You said he improves for a while when people talk to him about it. He’s not perfect, but he’s trying. If you continually get angry or annoyed at that Mass, you should probably find a different Mass to attend. JMHO.

He clearly likes to be the center of attention. That’s very evident in his actions well away from the Mass/parish. Still he clearly has the brains and good counsel to know what he’s doing is wrong. He has improved for a short time (he proudly refers to me as his “sensei”) yet soon enough he goes right back t his antics.

In the end this has really taken a tool om weekday morning Masses.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr David, do you think these sound like intentional liturgical abuses? It sounds to me like a fumbling man trying to do his best.

He of course doesn’t have an obligation to find a different Mass, and that man should probably not be serving as EMHC or similar; however, if the poster finds himself continually becoming angry during Mass, I do think he should consider attending another Mass time or parish until the situation is fixed in order to avoid that occasion of sin. Who would want to attend Mass that makes you angry, anyway?

Regardless of what is in the mind of the man doing these things, it is still the responsibility of the pastor to fix them.

It might not be an abuse on the part of the individual if (again IF) he doesn’t know any better. But at the same time, the pastor does know better and should do everything reasonable to stop this behavior. Allowing him to make a public display of these things by allowing him to perform the various public roles in the Mass only encourages this sort of thing.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Obviously I am not going to get the bishop involved. The pastor knows what’s going on.

One assumes the pastor would take action if he perceived these things as a problem.

He clearly likes to be the center of attention.

2478
To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way. Source]

In the end this has really taken a tool om weekday morning Masses.

Have you considered volunteering to be an altar server, lector, or extraordinary minister? Perhaps you could demonstrate how these activities should be performed correctly.

 

[justagirl]

Regardless of what is in the mind of the man doing these things, it is still the responsibility of the pastor to fix them.

It might not be an abuse on the part of the individual if (again IF) he doesn’t know any better. But at the same time, the pastor does know better and should do everything reasonable to stop this behavior. Allowing him to make a public display of these things by allowing him to perform the various public roles in the Mass only encourages this sort of thing.

I never said anything otherwise, Fr David. This is most certainly the priest’s responsibility.

 

[FrDavid96]

I never said anything otherwise, Fr David. This is most certainly the priest’s responsibility.

I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying otherwise. I merely wanted to make the point that there is indeed a responsibility on the part of the pastor to deal with this, and not tolerate or ignore it (and here I’m not implying any motivation on the part of the pastor either).

 

[Charioteer]

Fr David, do you think these sound like intentional liturgical abuses? It sounds to me like a fumbling man trying to do his best.

He craves center stage and attention, that much I know. But WHY would someone act this way during the Mass?

 

[JPUSC]

He craves center stage and attention, that much I know. But WHY would someone act this way during the Mass?

Because he craves center stage and attention.

 

[Charioteer]

One assumes the pastor would take action if he perceived these things as a problem.

Not necessarily. While out current pastor is a good man I think would just as soon not deal with this matter.

Have you considered volunteering to be an altar server, lector, or extraordinary minister? Perhaps you could demonstrate how these activities should be performed correctly.

I do all three. Many of us have provided one-on-one training for him and we have provided good example for him to follow.

His latest addition is during the procession. When he is the crucifer and has to change direction/turn he does so as if he was marching on a drill team. It’s sad to watch – but it sure puts the spotlight on him in a negative manner…

 

[LilyM]

Because he craves center stage and attention.

Exactly. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes, shocking as it may seem, someone who is indulging in attention-seeking behaviours is out to … well, get attention.

 

[Charioteer]

Exactly. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes, shocking as it may seem, someone who is indulging in attention-seeking behaviours is out to … well, get attention.

EVEN in the context of the Mass where he has received feedback on what he does? It’s to the point now where peoples’ feeling are being hurt because their ability to worship God is being impinged.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

EVEN in the context of the Mass where he has received feedback on what he does? It’s to the point now where peoples’ feeling are being hurt because their ability to worship God is being impinged.

He sounds totally annoying to me! If I were the priest I would give him a warning and then remove him from his duties if he can’t comply. The Mass has a certain form to it - this guy just can’t take poetic license and change it to suit his fancy.

 

[mary1173]

The priest is first and foremost responsible for what happensin the church. I was only suggestingthe bishop out of a matter of if this man refused to listen to the priest, then possibly inform the bishop and try to impress upon him that he is interfereing with the rubrics of the mass.
Do you know if this man has mental deficits? Retardation, PTSD? If so it may not be understood in his mind that he is making it hard on everyone else involved.He may be suffering from bipolar depression. Oddities in behavior have a chemical/ physical brain involvement.He may want spiritual help, but to me he sounds as if he needs medical help too. To get meds for this Obsessive compulsive disorder he is developing. It’s psychiatric in nature, not intentional on his part I’m guessing.
Just thought I’d throw that one in there as a possible answer.He needs to see a dr. of psychiatry, not theology.

 

[Charioteer]

The priest is first and foremost responsible for what happensin the church. I was only suggestingthe bishop out of a matter of if this man refused to listen to the priest, then possibly inform the bishop and try to impress upon him that he is interfereing with the rubrics of the mass.
Do you know if this man has mental deficits? Retardation, PTSD? If so **it may not be understood in his mind that he is making it hard on everyone else involved.**He may be suffering from bipolar depression. Oddities in behavior have a chemical/ physical brain involvement.He may want spiritual help, but to me he sounds as if he needs medical help too. To get meds for this Obsessive compulsive disorder he is developing. It’s psychiatric in nature, not intentional on his part I’m guessing.
Just thought I’d throw that one in there as a possible answer.He needs to see a dr. of psychiatry, not theology.

He’s a bright guy – the CEO of a successful regional company but something sure seems to be wrong. Normally a guy with his background understands how to act in different situations and settings – and I think he does but when it comes to the Mass something is definitely broken.

 

[Sheeniac]

While I can close my eyes or turn my head to say the kissing of the Book of Gospels and his treating the altar like it was a table to be cleared at McDonald’s it far more difficult hearing him add to the Lord’s Prayer every day.

I’ve just started being a reader, and think that ONLY the priest should be kissing the Gospel. He doesn’t walk up to the altar and kiss that too, so why does he kiss the Gospel? I’m shocked that he clears the alter without reverence given his kiss of the Gospel. Perhaps you could start a discussion of him based on the difference in treatment of the book and the altar. Just give your reason of curiosity!

As far as saying the names, my pastoral associate said we could (and that she does it at her home parish). But, she said it could go wrong, as she once said ‘Body of Jane’ to a Jane. I think it calls to much attention to ourselves, so wouldn’t do it.

 

[Charioteer]

I agree with everyone else so far. These are little things. They may be annoying, but you should offer it up instead of letting yourself get worked up.

My priest quietly says the communicant’s name at Communion, by the way, and he’s an excellent, orthodox priest.

He’s not “orthodox” in this respect!

…As far as saying the names, my pastoral associate said we could (and that she does it at her home parish). But, she said it could go wrong, as she once said ‘Body of Jane’ to a Jane. I think it calls to much attention to ourselves, so wouldn’t do it.

Your “pastoral associate” is wrong.

I was expecting to read something real interesting, but none of these are odd at all, LOL!

I just found out that it’s normal in Eastern Rite Churches for the priest to say one’s name at Communion, so that part isn’t that strange.

We are talking about the Latin Rite. “LOL!”

I had really hoped this thread would not degenerate into rubrics 101 (or rubrics 099) but here is what the Church actually says on the matter:
"The person distributing Communion says audibly to each person approaching, ‘The Body of Christ’. This formula should not be altered, as it is a proclamation which calls for a response of faith on the part of the one who receives. The communicant should audibly respond ‘Amen,’ indicating by that response his or her belief that this small wafer of bread, the wine in this chalice are in reality the body and blood of Christ the Lord.

When one receives from the chalice, the same proclamation is made by the person distributing Communion and the Communicant again responds ‘Amen.’ It should be noted that it is never permissible for a person to dip the host he or she has received into the chalice. If, for some reason, the communicant is not able or willing to drink from the cup then that person should receive only under the form of bread."*

usccb.org/liturgy/girm/bul5.shtml

Back to the thread I am not upset because he simply not following the rubrics. His mentioning each name is DISRUPTIVE.

 

[kyria]

The reason why he does it is because it has unfortunately become so ingrained into the consciousness of many Catholics that they need to practice showmanship during Mass, and they need to make personal “improvements” on the Mass.

He’s probably doing each of these things because he saw someone else somewhere doing it and thinks to himself “well, that looks cute, I’ll do it too.”

After someone points-out to him that what he is doing is wrong, he realizes this and tries to “do better.” But (I’m willing to bet) then he sees others taking liberties with the Mass, and after a while again comes to the conclusion that if others are doing it, it must be fine, and so reverts back to his old habits.

In my own experience, whenever I correct liturgical abuses, the response is universal: “they’re doing it at such-and-such so it can’t be wrong.”

There is a certain movement which pervades (or should I say invades?) the Church and has made liturgical abuses a hallmark of their movement. I won’t mention the name of that movement. Suffice to say that showmanship and sensationalism are their motivation.

With all due respect, how can you assume this fellow is displaying showmanship? You appear to be making some assumptions here about this person, and honestly I don’t believe that to be very Christian.

And what is the name of the movement that you believe to be invading the Church?

 

[wolfgang]

P.S. I love your signature Dicerning! Very witty.

I like it too!

 

[ac_claire]

Oh I (actually we) have tried. It’s not as easy as it sounds. While I can close my eyes or turn my head to say the kissing of the Book of Gospels and his treating the altar like it was a table to be cleared at McDonald’s it far more difficult hearing him add to the Lord’s Prayer every day.

You’re right though, that would be my first choice – just to ignore him.

Again though my question was not how to stop him. I asked WHY he does that, why he stops after someone reviews it with him and why does he then re-start?

My first thoughts are it sounds like a combination of things. Yeah, he sounds like he could be lonely, and being an older man and a daily communicant…maybe going to Mass is just the most important thing in his life and so he’s throwing his “all” into it, so to speak. Of course assisting at Mass isn’t the time to improvise, but that might be a reason anyhow. He probably doesn’t think too deeply about these things, as evidenced by the fact he’s never able to stop doing them for very long even after being corrected. Like it’s become habit.

Also, sounds like he is maybe just an eccentric person to some degree…I’m willing to bet that he has a few personality quirks outside of Mass as well, right? I know some people (family members lol) who I could definitely see behaving in this way. Doesn’t make it correct, but I can see it happening.

I feel for you. It would be distracting for me, too. But you’ve done everything you can do about it really.

 

[ac_claire]

With all due respect, how can you assume this fellow is displaying showmanship? You appear to be making some assumptions here about this person, and honestly I don’t believe that to be very Christian.

…because he is, very obviously (if the OP is correct) displaying showmanship during the Mass. A spade is a spade, why lie and call it otherwise?

Kyria, there is nothing “un-Christian” about making an honest judgement about any given situation based on the facts before you. And I’m sorry but “I don’t believe that to be very Christian” is a ridiculously inappropriate thing to say in this context.

 

[Charioteer]

With all due respect, how can you assume this fellow is displaying showmanship? You appear to be making some assumptions here about this person, and honestly I don’t believe that to be very Christian.

And what is the name of the movement that you believe to be invading the Church?

Good question. Your judgment of me aside, he most certainly seeks attention in the secular world. He wants/needs to be the center of attention.

As far as “movement” I have no idea what you are talking about.