ODD Behavior from Reader/ Server/ EMHC/ Usher

[Charioteer]

At Mass the other morning he was one of two EMsHC. After I had received communion I stepped off the sanctuary to retrieve the ciborium from the tabernacle (yes I know some people here feel a server should not being doing that.)

Apparently (I could not see) before stepping down to distribute communion he felt the need to “clear” the altar! He placed the Sacramanetary with stand, the main (empty) chalice, the purificator and the full pyxes (for our homebound EMsHC) on the credence table.

Why then at THAT point of the Mass?!?! Some of the stuff he does is weird.

 

[Charioteer]

My first thoughts are it sounds like a combination of things. Yeah, he sounds like he could be lonely, and being an older man and a daily communicant…maybe going to Mass is just the most important thing in his life and so he’s throwing his “all” into it, so to speak. Of course assisting at Mass isn’t the time to improvise, but that might be a reason anyhow. He probably doesn’t think too deeply about these things, as evidenced by the fact he’s never able to stop doing them for very long even after being corrected. Like it’s become habit.

Also, sounds like he is maybe just an eccentric person to some degree…I’m willing to bet that he has a few personality quirks outside of Mass as well, right? I know some people (family members lol) who I could definitely see behaving in this way. Doesn’t make it correct, but I can see it happening.

I feel for you. It would be distracting for me, too. But you’ve done everything you can do about it really.

He’s married, popular and a local business/Rotary leader.

I do agree with you that these things are “habit.” On the other hand someone will take issue with some of the issues with him and he will cease doing it – for a few weeks. So he has the ability to change but he does not for the long term…

 

[msugeotech]

Perhaps he’s just so used to running the show, it spills over into mass and perhaps other areas of his life? I don’t know. Perhaps it IS just as simple as some have pointed out that he has to be the center of attention. I dunno.

He’s a bright guy – the CEO of a successful regional company but something sure seems to be wrong. Normally a guy with his background understands how to act in different situations and settings – and I think he does but when it comes to the Mass something is definitely broken.

 

[zab]

Yes it’s up to my pastor to fix this. I am aware of this. But what causes this sort of behavior? It’s almost as if he craves attention and has a need to put on a show. I would love any constructive (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank you.

Who knows what causes it. Perhaps he doesn’t think he is doing anything wrong if the pastor has said nothing about it or perhaps has told him not to worry about what everyone else was saying. We can make all kinds of judgements against this man but we do not know him nor do we know why he does what he does. What it all comes down to is that it is the duty of the pastor to correct the things he is doing wrong.

 

[Charioteer]

Who knows what causes it. Perhaps he doesn’t think he is doing anything wrong if the pastor has said nothing about it or perhaps has told him not to worry about what everyone else was saying. We can make all kinds of judgements against this man but we do not know him nor do we know why he does what he does. What it all comes down to is that it is the duty of the pastor to correct the things he is doing wrong.

I know him – I know him well.

I also know that people (including former pastors) have brought these matters to his attention. He’ll comply for a while (weeks) and then go back to his own ways.

He and I had a very heated conversation one time. He was serving Mass. As he was preparing to clear the altar he shoved 5 purificators into the 5 chalices that were waiting to be purified. I had talked to him serveral times about the need to veil the sacred vessels because we wait until after Mass to purify them. He now veils the sacred vessels.

This request seems to be the only one that has hit home. It’s been several months and he has not reverted back to his oldways – at least for now.

 

[Charioteer]

Perhaps he’s just so used to running the show, it spills over into mass and perhaps other areas of his life? I don’t know. Perhaps it IS just as simple as some have pointed out that he has to be the center of attention. I dunno.

THAT could very well be the case! Good insight.

 

[tinalewis]

I can’t help but be amused at this . . . . sorry!

I go to weekday Mass at my own parish and also at two other parishes. At one there’s one elderly gentleman EMHC who literally and loudly “croaks” the words to all the responses. Everyone in the church can tell when he’s at Mass! And then there’s the elderly woman lector at the other parish whose voice is worse than chalk on a blackboard, it’s more like grinding thick sheets of metal (try listening to that at 6:45 a.m. on a Monday!). At my own parish our pastor invlites people to say their intentions out loud and one elderly woman recites detailed histories about everyone she knows who need our prayers.

So? So what? It won’t be too many years from now that the elderly man EMHC and the elderly woman sheet metal lector will no longer be able to serve at Mass. One day I’ll be at Mass and they won’t be there and then I’ll overhear someone say that they’re sick or in the hospital and then I’ll see the funeral notice in the bulletin. And the elderly woman who describes the people she prays for in agonizing detail is such a caring friend and the people she knows are undoubtedly grateful that she cares about them and asks prayers for them. And maybe they’ve been healed or comforted because of our prayers. There are some people who have no one to pray for them.

There will always be annoying people in our circles - at work, at home, and at Mass. Always. We can never live in an “annoyance-free zone”. Sometimes when I come down with severe eyestrain from rolling my eyes, I think about what it would be like to not have these people anymore. Then somehow I can tolerate the annoyances better.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I know him – I know him well.

I also know that people (including former pastors) have brought these matters to his attention. He’ll comply for a while (weeks) and then go back to his own ways.

He and I had a very heated conversation one time. He was serving Mass. As he was preparing to clear the altar he shoved 5 purificators into the 5 chalices that were waiting to be purified. I had talked to him serveral times about the need to veil the sacred vessels because we wait until after Mass to purify them. He now veils the sacred vessels.

This request seems to be the only one that has hit home. It’s been several months and he has not reverted back to his oldways – at least for now.

Sound like you need to have more “heated discussions” with him. That’s the only thing that seem effective.

 

[Zooey]

Perhaps he’s just so used to running the show, it spills over into mass and perhaps other areas of his life? I don’t know. Perhaps it IS just as simple as some have pointed out that he has to be the center of attention. I dunno.

That could be the case.
Or:shrug: he could have some kind of “issues”–as in, early onset of some form of dementia. (I have seen it. I actually once had to stop the car and threaten to put my stepfather out by the side of the road, before he would stop waving back & forth in front of my face, saying, “Can you see? Can you see??” It was Alzheimers…but he had always been a difficult person who was “used to running the show”, and his waning ability to reason just made it worse. But I could have killed us both if I ignored it).

THAT could very well be the case! Good insight.

I don’t know what you can do. I wish I did. Regardless of the reasons behind it, I know that this is something that you–and others–should not have to put up with, when you are at worship.:byzsoc:

 

[kyria]

…

because he is, very obviously (if the OP is correct) displaying showmanship during the Mass. A spade is a spade, why lie and call it otherwise?

 

[Charioteer]

That could be the case.
Or:shrug: he could have some kind of “issues”–as in, early onset of some form of dementia. (I have seen it. I actually once had to stop the car and threaten to put my stepfather out by the side of the road, before he would stop waving back & forth in front of my face, saying, “Can you see? Can you see??” It was Alzheimers…but he had always been a difficult person who was “used to running the show”, and his waning ability to reason just made it worse. But I could have killed us both if I ignored it).

I don’t know what you can do. I wish I did. Regardless of the reasons behind it, I know that this is something that you–and others–should not have to put up with, when you are at worship.:byzsoc:

I will say this much. If his actions didn’t significantly impact my (and others’) experience of the Mass – if they were just a matter of ignoring some official rubrics I could and would turn the other cheek. The last thing I want to be is one of those people who run around with copies of the GIRM, RS and select encyclicals – they have their own serious issues.

I have had several face-to-face talks with him (as have others) and they do little good – and any good is fleeting. The only thing I can think to do is to write him a very gentle e-mail? The reason for any such e-mail would not be largely to instruct him. It would be to outline why I periodically treat him with controlled disdain after one of his more outrageous performances.

The controlled disdain is my own problem to work on and sometimes I am concerned because he may really have no idea why I become quiet/overly serious/etc.

 

[Charioteer]

It is not obvious he is displaying showmanship. The guy might have a genuine disorder of sometype, or a genuine love for Jesus, or a self esteem issue etc.

No way are his actions a genuine “love for Jesus.” I would agree with you – he might not be able to help it which is the basis for my original posting.

No it isn’t ridiculous for me to say so. Making a judgement based on what facts? Some odd behaviour does not mean someone is deliberately trying to be a showman. If I walked passed someone in the street and they swore at me, I could assume the person was deliberately being nasty. Or I could find out he had Tourettes and couldn’t help it. We base so much of our judgement on visual facts without always knowing some other base facts. Many do this every day of their lives. Look at people’s behaviour and make assumptions as to why they display the behaviour they do, without any thought to whether there is something underlining that.

There is absolutely no question that he likes to be the center of attention in the secular world. In fact he and I are quite a like away from church and we get a long well.

What I can’t understand is this. If his behavior is a product of wanting to bring attention to himself (which certainly seems to be the case) why on Earth would such a nice and bright individual not be able to attenuate his actions to meet a level of dignity required by the Mass?

He has been instructed how to comport himself yet it just does not seem to sink in – at least for very long.

 

[chewchoo]

No way are his actions a genuine “love for Jesus.” I would agree with you – he might not be able to help it which is the basis for my original posting.

There is absolutely no question that he likes to be the center of attention in the secular world. In fact he and I are quite a like away from church and we get a long well.

What I can’t understand is this. If his behavior is a product of wanting to bring attention to himself (which certainly seems to be the case) why on Earth would such a nice and bright individual not be able to attenuate his actions to meet a level of dignity required by the Mass?

He has been instructed how to comport himself yet it just does not seem to sink in – at least for very long.

some people are severe showoffs, and if he is in fact disturbing the mass that much, most of you and even the priest have seen it, why not approach the priest to have him (temporarily?) removed from his roles within the mass? you will still have to hear his added words and fast paced prayers and what not, but if he is being disrespectful, he needs a timeout…

 

[zab]

I know him – I know him well.

I also know that people (including former pastors) have brought these matters to his attention. He’ll comply for a while (weeks) and then go back to his own ways.

He and I had a very heated conversation one time. He was serving Mass. As he was preparing to clear the altar he shoved 5 purificators into the 5 chalices that were waiting to be purified. I had talked to him serveral times about the need to veil the sacred vessels because we wait until after Mass to purify them. He now veils the sacred vessels.

This request seems to be the only one that has hit home. It’s been several months and he has not reverted back to his oldways – at least for now.

In your original post, you ask us- people on this board- what causes his behavior. That was the question to which I was responding. And here you say former pastors have brought these matters to his attention. Maybe it is time to bring this to the attention of your present pastor.

 

[Sheeniac]

I still think you should just ask him. “Gee, so-and-so, I thought I had mentioned it before, and you stopped for awhile. But now you’re doing it again… did someone hit your reset button?” (with a friendly voice and big smile).

I aim to be tactful, but direct in my life.

 

[Charioteer]

In your original post, you ask us- people on this board- what causes his behavior. That was the question to which I was responding. And here you say former pastors have brought these matters to his attention. Maybe it is time to bring this to the attention of your present pastor.

What you say is logical…

From a very practical standpoint he’s been doing this for 20+ years and our pastor (a good man) has only been around for about 2 years. I think the pastor realizes that everyone is gritting and bearing the man’s actions well enough so just leave it lay.

Every once in a while someone (usually me) erupts though. In this case it was because some other people were talking during he put on his standard show and he cleared the altar at a time when the shouldn’t have. It was all quite odd and I was rather loud about it in the sanctuary afterwords.

 

[kyria]

No way are his actions a genuine “love for Jesus.” I would agree with you – he might not be able to help it which is the basis for my original posting.

There is absolutely no question that he likes to be the center of attention in the secular world. In fact he and I are quite a like away from church and we get a long well.

What I can’t understand is this. If his behavior is a product of wanting to bring attention to himself (which certainly seems to be the case) why on Earth would such a nice and bright individual not be able to attenuate his actions to meet a level of dignity required by the Mass?

He has been instructed how to comport himself yet it just does not seem to sink in – at least for very long.

My son has similar awareness issues. He has aspergers and has actually stepped on people’s feet and not even been aware he is standing on someone’s feet. He gets accused of being bossy when he is just enthusiastically trying to help a classmate understand something. I have a condition of perceived ugliness which means I used to always look in the mirror to check if I was ugly but people misinterpret as vanity. I used to have a staff member that was always out for attention but she suffered from a borderline personality disorder and was quite bright, but she just insisted on wanting things done her way. There appeared to be something amiss with her ability to follow the rules, so I had to try and redirect her to something else that she could do that didn’t necessary end in conflict and disruption. She was absolutely convinced it was everyone else who had the problem, and was unable to self reflect and be aware of her behaviour. Many intelligent people do suffer from social disabilities and can have issues with understanding why they can’t do something, or something is only done a certain why. Their brains might be wired a bit different. Yes this person might be deliberately seeking attention, but if that is the case, what is the need that needs to really be met? because it might not necessarily be attention. It might appear as attention, but there could be an underlining issue such as low self esteem, wanting to feel important.

But these so called odd people, and oddness can be subjective, do teach us something also. It might be that they:- teach us not to make rushed assumptions, they teach us to not judge a book by it 's cover, they teach us to be aware of our own differences, they teach us to have some compassion, they teach us to try another way, they teach us to listen to another reason at times, they teach us to learn patience, they teach us to try and not react, they teach us to understand about the root causes of some people’s behaviour, they teach us to think outside the square at times, they teach us to be thankful we might suffer from some of their disorders, they teach us to have more tolerance, they teach us to realise that maybe it isn’t necessarily them that is too way out there, it might be us that is too inhibited. Some can teach us more love, ways to love, and more courage.

Even the most frustratingly negative always having to do something their way or different person can teach us something.

We are not different for nothing. We all have something that we can give to another and receive from another. Even if at the end of the day it is a prayer of "may God help you and help me not to want to shoot you’.

I do find it funny at times about some of the things that some people regard as an abuse of the Liturgy. Half the time I see love. Someone might see an abuse, I might see something else. We also make great assumptions at times what is actually offensive to Christ and we fail many times to think how would Christ react and how would Christ feel and what might Christ do in this situation. I love kissing bibles myself. It is the word. Nothing wrong with displaying love for the word. As a charismatic I have to hear all the time about how we express ourselves too much for attention. And we love and kiss and hug too much and raising our hands up in love and praise for the Lord is wrong etc.

I do aknowlege this person might be be a deliberate pain in the behind, but maybe there is a bit more too his behaviour. Maybe there is something that God is trying to get you to see about yourself?

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, we need to be willing to accept different people’s personality quarks. We need to be non-judgmental and welcoming.

However, we also need to keep in mind that performing some public function in the Mass is not the time to give expression to those little idiosyncrasies.

I have a favorite coffee mug. It’s a pet peeve of mine to use it whenever possible. It’s the source of many jokes in the parish. My friends in Christ tolerate this little odd behavior because it’s a small part of “what makes me me”. However, if I tried to use it to replace the chalice on the altar, I would be out-of-line and everyone would have every right to expect me to stop doing it.

The same thing applies here. Whatever the reason for this person’s unique behavior that would never justify allowing it to continue to disrupt the Mass. The problem here is not so much that this person does the kind of things that he does; the problem is that he is being given the opportunity and the means to do it while serving in the sanctuary in various roles.

We can easily tolerate a crying baby or an elderly person who talks to himself during Mass, or a teenager with an emotional condition, etc. and we do this in love and charity because as Christians, we must do so. But there is no excuse for allowing someone who is determined to disrupt the Mass to be serving in these public functions.

 

[Charioteer]

Yes, we need to be willing to accept different people’s personality quarks. We need to be non-judgmental and welcoming.

However, we also need to keep in mind that performing some public function in the Mass is not the time to give expression to those little idiosyncrasies.

I have a favorite coffee mug. It’s a pet peeve of mine to use it whenever possible. It’s the source of many jokes in the parish. My friends in Christ tolerate this little odd behavior because it’s a small part of “what makes me me”. However, if I tried to use it to replace the chalice on the altar, I would be out-of-line and everyone would have every right to expect me to stop doing it.

The same thing applies here. Whatever the reason for this person’s unique behavior that would never justify allowing it to continue to disrupt the Mass. The problem here is not so much that this person does the kind of things that he does; the problem is that he is being given the opportunity and the means to do it while serving in the sanctuary in various roles.

We can easily tolerate a crying baby or an elderly person who talks to himself during Mass, or a teenager with an emotional condition, etc. and we do this in love and charity because as Christians, we must do so. But there is no excuse for allowing someone who is determined to disrupt the Mass to be serving in these public functions.

Thanks all for your comments. In this case it’s the practical impacts of his actions that take such a toll and not simply his defiance of the rubrics or common courtesy.

When he speaks (for instance) “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” he does it so loudly and so far ahead of everyone else that I must intensely focus on hearing and staying in time with everyone else and not on the prayer itself and that bothers me – a lot. And just as that prayer finishes he begins with his cutesy “my the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ bring me to everlasting life, amen.” – not that he’s receiving communion at that time. In brief I’m fed up and I’m seriously thinking about e-mailing him with the facts.

 

[kyria]

Yes, we need to be willing to accept different people’s personality quarks. We need to be non-judgmental and welcoming.

However, we also need to keep in mind that performing some public function in the Mass is not the time to give expression to those little idiosyncrasies.

I have a favorite coffee mug. It’s a pet peeve of mine to use it whenever possible. It’s the source of many jokes in the parish. My friends in Christ tolerate this little odd behavior because it’s a small part of “what makes me me”. However, if I tried to use it to replace the chalice on the altar, I would be out-of-line and everyone would have every right to expect me to stop doing it.

The same thing applies here. Whatever the reason for this person’s unique behavior that would never justify allowing it to continue to disrupt the Mass. The problem here is not so much that this person does the kind of things that he does; the problem is that he is being given the opportunity and the means to do it while serving in the sanctuary in various roles.

We can easily tolerate a crying baby or an elderly person who talks to himself during Mass, or a teenager with an emotional condition, etc. and we do this in love and charity because as Christians, we must do so. But there is no excuse for allowing someone who is determined to disrupt the Mass to be serving in these public functions.

Well I am not convinced he is deliberately doing this. And I can see your point. Maybe it is time we only allowed the normal people to participate in the mass.