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japhy
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The pending translation of the 2002 Roman Missal should be far better, both in the quality of the translation and (hopefully) in the capitalization of proper sacred nouns.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes, except as an adjective. Add “-ic”, and the resulting word becomes “eucharistic.” This is how it was translated for the copy of Sacramentum Caritatis posted at the Vatican’s web site.
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Cat
Guest
Back then, people didn’t sue right and left, and lawyers weren’t waiting with bated breath to instigate those lawsuits. I’m serious about this–one fall, one injury, and a good lawyer could bankrupt our church. You have to be so careful nowadays.
The plain fact is, our bishop has approved it, and that settles it.
It is a reverent family Mass, done correctly, and if anyone would like to argue about the kneeling on a gym floor, write our bishop, Thomas Doran. HE is the one to do battle with, not the parish, the parents, their children, or me.
As far as I can see, bishops have every right according to the rules and rubrics to rule on “kneeling” in their dioceses. He is exercising his God-given authority. We don’t have this authority.
And while you’re at it, pray for him, please–he suffered an ankle injury while he was in Washington helping to welcome Pope Benedict XVI, and it has made it difficult for him to stick to his usual busy schedule. (This on top of suffering a battle with cancer last year.)
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elts1956
Guest
Generalizations tend to lead everyone astray and add to misunderstandings. Not ALL Protestants, nor ALL Catholics indulge in foul language, drunkenness, or sexual license. If any of the people in these two groups do, I would tend to think they are neither Fundamental Christian Protestants, nor Fundamental Christian Catholics. Meaning they have not been properly instructed in their beliefs, or if proper instruction took place, they didn’t listen. Certainly not as serious, but along the same lines, as saying “The Jews” killed Christ.
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Our_Refuge
Guest
A couple of years ago the Bishop of Orange County told the congregation of a Church that **kneeling to receive communion was a mortal sin **and they were forbidden to kneel!
Of course they fought it and he had to apoligize.
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Cat
Guest
And as I have tried to express in other threads, it is not my place to tell an ordained apostle how he should manage his diocese.
Perhaps this issue is more upsetting to me as an ex-Protestant because I have lived for decades among Christians who continually “search the Scriptures” and look for errors and mistakes and things to avoid.
As far as I’m concerned, it is wrong for me to poke about outside of my calling and try to figure out if the apostles are doing things right or wrong. How would I know? And how would YOU know whether it is appropriate for a family mass to allow for standing instead of kneeling? Can you quote “the books?” Cite historical precedents?" Well, I’m sure that our bishop could quote other “books” and cite even more history right back at you and prove that YOU are wrong.
What is the point?! HE is the appointed shepherd of our diocese. We pray for him, and trust that the Lord will answer our prayers and give him wisdom to lead us. I am not an apostle–HE IS! He is the wise one. I am just a woman, a very lucky woman who for some unfathomable reason, the Lord selected out of all of my Protestant relatives and friends for conversion to Catholicism. I am incredibly humbled by the Lord’s mercy and kindness to me and my husband, and this year, our older daughter. Why us?
And now that He has escorted me into His Church and sat me down among His Body and included me among His members, who am I?–a mere pianist–to question the great apostles of the Lord and hold a “book” up in their faces and announce, “You’re making the wrong decision , sir.”
No, no. I’m happy to be here! Maybe when I’ve been around the Church for several thousand years and have been admitted to heaven and given “saint” status, I might tap Jesus on the shoulder and whisper, “I think that bishop down there is doing the wrong thing to allow those people to stand instead of kneeling.”
Actually, no, I don’t even see myself doing that!
IF our bishop was doing something overtly sinful–stealing money and spending it on weekends in Aruba with women, or holding “nekkid” masses (no caps for that) or marching with NARAL (like some of the Protestant ministers in our city do), THEN I would speak out. But not for matters of practice and discipline.
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Cat
Guest
That’s really awful. I have heard nothing of this happening in our diocese. The priests that are ordained every year are so wonderful and smart and gifted.
I don’t know how much control our bishop has over this kind of thing. (?) I do know that the young (and some older) men are encouraged to attend very conservative seminaries.
I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it–I am blessed to live in the diocese where I live. There isn’t a better place for a convert to grow in the faith.
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stmaria
Guest
Freshman, ignore catharina. Many of us have had run- ins with her. A couple of months ago I made the statemant that she was**“lucky**” to have a reverent NO. She accused me of using demonic language or something to that effect and that I need to watch what I say and she went on and on and on and on and on and on and on…
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elts1956
Guest
I suggest that to keep everyone happy, we stand with one leg and kneel with the other. About as much of a possibility as getting everyone to agree with anything on some of these forums. Gets a bit frustrating at times.
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catharina
Guest
Yessir, maria, whatever you say, ma’am.Freshman, ignore catharina. Many of us have had run- ins with her. A couple of months ago I made the statemant that she was**“lucky**” to have a reverent NO. She accused me of using demonic language or something to that effect and that I need to watch what I say and she went on and on and on and on and on and on and on…
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Cat
Guest
Yes, I agree, of all the Protetstant sects, I think the most difficult ones to grow up in are the separatist sects.
I think they have a hard time retaining their members. Many of the children grow up compliant, but as soon as they taste freedom, they go crazy. Some come back to a church (not usually a fundamentalist church), but many renounce Christianity entirely. And then the parents lose their faith, because “after all, shouldn’t God answer my prayer and return my babies to me? What good is He?”
I believe that it is the fundamentalists that are often among the most vicious anti-Catholics. These groups are often anti-pretty-much-everything, including all the “compromising” Protestant sects.
Please realize that I am speaking of extreme groups. There are many Protestant Christians who consider themselves believers in the Fundamentals of the faith. I am speaking of the “separatists” who do not associate with people outside of their group.
I think it is very hard to be a “missionary” to Fundamentalist Christians. For one thing, they won’t associate with you!
But if a Catholic does have the privilege of associating with a Fundamentalist Christian, it seems to me that we need to be prepared to honor their culture to the point where it doesn’t compromise our faith.
As I said earlier, Fundamentalists generally will not tolerate any kind of bad language. So why not eliminate it from our vocabulary? The Bible tells us that we should not let any unwholesome language come out of our mouth, but only what is for the good of others. This may be difficult for some of us, but I hardly think it’s unreasonable. If cleaning up our language will make it possible to befriend a Fundamentalist Christian and possibly set him/her on the road back to Christ’s Church, then why not clean it up?! We say we are ready to die for Christ–well, then we should be ready to stop saying (or typing) ****!
Obviously we can’t be “fake” people. If we enjoy movies and theater, we are probably not going to have a whole lot of success ministering to Fundamentalists! But I’ve encountered many Catholics on these forums who have given up TV and movies–could it be that some of THEM have been called to be a Light in the Darkness for a Fundamentalist out there?
THurifer2, you asked if I hung out with such people. I’m not sure if you are referring to Catholics who drink or Fundamentalist Protestants who believe all liquor is from hell.
I’ve been around long enough to encounter both Catholic and Protestant hypocrites. But I think that the Catholics are more blatant about it. Most Protestants, at least the Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and Pentecostals, will be shunned by their churches if they regularly practice a “sinful lifestyle.” In some Protestant churches, this sin may be a true sin, e.g., living with a person and having a sexual relationship out of wedlock. In other Protestant churches like the one I grew up in, a “sinful lifestyle” would be drinking alcohol in any form other than Nyquil. In still other Protestant churches, the “sinful lifestyle” might be excessive swearing and salty language.
I don’t think Catholics practice “shunning.” It seems that Catholics are more willing to live and let live, and allow God to do the convicting. This is good, but it also means that we will see Catholics who are living terrible lifestyles, truly sinful, but still coming to Mass and professing holiness. I know a lot of Catholic young people who are living together and having sex and even babies. Many Protestants see this as rank hypocrisy.
But Protestants will actively SHUN someone, so usually the person who is involved in a “sinful lifestyle” will not be allowed to stick around that Protestant church. They will either be asked to leave or actually escorted out.
Again, having come from this kind of Christianity, you can perhaps understand why I (and other ex-Protestants) are so very adamant that we stop making such a big deal out of practices and music and girls wearing tank tops to church and old people whispering loud before Mass, etc. **We’ve seen these issues become Big Deals that literally split churches, broke hearts, and destroyed faiths. We are very afraid that we will see it happen in the Universal Church. **
I think many ex-Protestants might agree with me and my husband that “the Catholic Church is our Last Refuge.”
Both my husband and I have decided that if this Church turns out to be a lie, then we will be atheists. So we really don’t want to see The Catholic Church split apart over a song, a guitar, a hand vs. tongue, or OF vs. EF. This kind of thing scares ex-Protestants to DEATH! And maybe that’s why I keep venturing onto the “Traditional Section” of CAF–I feel compelled to warn you all about what will happen if you refuse to trust your God-ordained leaders. You will split.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Cat, thank you for this post. I too have been trying to get across to members that whether we like the Latin Mass or the Novus Ordo, thats OK. Whether we prefer to receive Communion in the hand or on the tongue, thats OK. Whether we prefer receiving Communion standing or kneeling, thats OK, so long as the kneeling does not trip up others. We need to each ask ourselves what do we think Jesus would say if we gave him these arguments and told him the things we say of one another, but most of all about the clergy, including the Magisterium and the Pope. I for one would not want to have to tell him any of that. How many of us pray, honestly pray for the clergy every day. Y’all, we need it, more than you will ever know. I remember my grandparents saying, “If you can’t say something nice about someone, keep your mouth shut!” It was good advise then, and still good now.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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MrS
Guest
I for one would not want to tell Him I “ecumanized” His Liturgy.
I for one would not want to tell Him that I settled or prefered or did not care enough for the vertical worship, and instead went along with the horizontal crowd.
All clergy deserve our prayers all the time. The High Priest deserves even more.
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consumedconvert
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I disagree. But in any case it’s the Bishop’s call.
BTW, I didn’t mean to imply that soldiers only knelt/kneel for safety reasons. I only meant to imply that they didn’t have a reason not to kneel.
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consumedconvert
Guest
I agree completely. The Bishop is entirely within his rights and responsibilities. I can find nothing wrong with his decision. I might add that unless you live in his diocese, DON’T write Bishop Doran. I’m sure he has enough on his plate without the faithful from other dioceses writing him questioning letters.
I will pray for him.
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Cat
Guest
(boldface mine)
I’m glad you prefaced this statement with “To me,” demonstrating that this is your opinion.
In the U.S., we often show respect by standing. We stand when we wish to honor someone–the President, our parents, our spouse, a visitor.
We stand when our National Anthem or our National Hymn is played or sung.
We stand to give an ovation to artists who have presented an excellent work.
Perhaps it’s just an American tradition, but to me–and this is just my opinion–standing does show respect, humility, and reverence.
When I play piano for Mass, I do not kneel because of my afflicted knee (awaiting knee replacement surgery). I can’t make my left knee bend all the way down, and if I kneel with one knee up and one knee down (Proposal Position!), I can’t guarantee that I would be able to rise again from a kneeling position! That would leave the cantor in an awful pickle!
So I sit quietly with my head bowed and my hands folded. I hope no one is impeded in their worship by my lack of kneeling, but most of the people who know me know that my knee is very painful and they watch me limping and I think that people probably figure out that it’s not as easy as it looks to kneel (or get up again!).
I’ve read various “rule books” about positions, and it seems to me that it is very clear that those who cannot kneel aren’t expected to bear pain and risk injury to do. It is the position of our heart that is most important.
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consumedconvert
Guest
Three cheers for that post, Cat. I came from a serparatist Fundamentalist group myself. While some are hypocrits, there are a good many sincere and devout people. Some have never touched alcohol in their lives (In a way I feel sorry for them
).I too see the potential for schism, and I pray that there will be no more schisms in the Church. The SSPX refused to obey the Pope (even while claiming obedience), even though Rome was willing to work with them to prevent a schism, and was in fact very patient with them. Their type of schism is especially dangerous IMHO because they claim fidelity to the Pope even while refusing to obey them. Many of them cite Canon Law as their defense for defying the Pope; that is nonsense. Canon Law plainly states that the only proper interpreter of Caon Law is the Legislator; and the Pope is the supreme Executor, Legislator, and Judge of the Church. You cannot use Canon Law against him.
There’s really nothing to keep them seperated, no reason why the SSPX cannot return to Rome, esp. since the Moto Proprio which allowed the universal celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass. Many of the SSPX faithful and even some religious have realized this and returned. Currently the Society encompasses about one million people (est.). That a pretty big schism, but remember that the Church has about 1.2 billion. I pray for their hasty return to full formal communion and full obedience to the Holy Father. +
The SSPX in turn have their problems with the SSPV, who broke off from them. The SSPV may one day find that a more conservative group breaks away and forms the SSPP (or whatever they will call themselves). Ad infinitum. It’s the Protestant effect. Q. How do you get over forty thousand denominations? A. You toss away the authority of the Papacy and wait a few hundred years. Splits have a notorious way of splitting.
Have no fear, you will never be an Atheist. I also knew that the Catholic Church was my last chance for Christianity, so to speak. If the Catholic Church turned out to be false, then it brought all Christianity along with it, and I would become an agnostic. The CC will stand forever.
Even if everyone else falls away. Scary and totally far-fetched hypothetical: say the Church in the US split wide open. Two-fifths of the Bishops became members of the schismatic Liberal Catholic Church in America, and two-fifthes became members of the SSPV, a conservative schismatic organisation. How would you know who to follow? A: You follow the Pope, and those in full communion with the Pope.
No one should ever underestimate the vast importance of the Papacy. The Papacy is, according to Church documents, the visible sign of unity in the Church. We all gather around this one Office. If we, the Faithful, disregard the Papacy it is indeed only a matter of time before we essentially become a disparate group of protestant sects.
But those who remain loyal, obedient, and in full communion with the Papacy remain faithful to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, even if (God forbid) they are one day in the minority of those who call themselves Catholic.
Great Posts!
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ethelzguy
Guest
There is more to living your faith than book study, Mass, and Confession.
I’d be curious to know. In what way(s) do you participate in parish life?
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