OF Supporters Please Stand Up!

[rlg94086]

If there are posters on this forum who claim that it is “disobedient” to question liturgical practice, then the onus should fall upon them to provide the evidence. So where is it?

I don’t think that questioning liturgical practice is “disobedient,” especially since there is so much disobedient liturgical practice in various parishes.

As long as you recognize that the liturgy, as promulgated by the Church, is licit - no problem. You don’t have to agree with the changes.

 

[Johndigger]

I for one appreciate ethelzguy’s posts. As a fairly new convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, I am often upset at how some “traditionalists” on this forum insist that the NO is inferior, that various Popes have made mistakes in allowing the NO, that various newer practices are not fully Catholics, etc.

God bless you on your journey towards the Lord in the Catholic Church!

I would be very grateful, if you could show me where I posted that the NO is inferior or that Popes have made mistakes in allowing it?

In fact, Ethelguy over more than one thread has completely misrepresented my position (And other’s positions too), so perhaps, you can see why I am so firm in my rebuttal of his post.

And if he sounds a bit crotchety at times, well, it is very difficult to remain perfectly calm when others are calling the Pope a heretic, the Church “in crisis,” the NO inferior, and any Catholic who isn’t TLM all-the-way “fallen away.”

Please show me where I have posted these things. Simply loving the TLM is not the same thing as any of the above.

I do not believe the Pope is a heretic. I do not believe that anyone who doesn’t love the TLM is “fallen away.”

My points on this thread have been:
**
1 .God is inspiring many seminarians with traditional values. **

2. Freshman, by the power of the Holy Spirit is claiming to be part of this wave

To which Ethelguy replied with a rant about Traditionalists being disobedient, self-serving rebels.

Decide for yourself whether that was reasonable.

As for the Church being in crisis, I must say, with baptisms down, marriages down, priests down, religious down, liberalism/heresy up than pretty much any other time (Apart from maybe the Arian crisis) I think it’s pretty obvious that we are indeed in crisis.

Praying for us all,

JD

 

[Cat]

God bless you on your journey towards the Lord in the Catholic Church!

I would be very grateful, if you could show me where I posted that the NO is inferior or that Popes have made mistakes in allowing it?

In fact, Ethelguy over more than one thread has completely misrepresented my position (And other’s positions too), so perhaps, you can see why I am so firm in my rebuttal of his post.

Please show me where I have posted these things. Simply loving the TLM is not the same thing as any of the above.

I do not believe the Pope is a heretic. I do not believe that anyone who doesn’t love the TLM is “fallen away.”

My points on this thread have been:
**
1 .God is inspiring many seminarians with traditional values. **

2. Freshman, by the power of the Holy Spirit is claiming to be part of this wave

To which Ethelguy replied with a rant about Traditionalists being disobedient, self-serving rebels.

Decide for yourself whether that was reasonable.

As for the Church being in crisis, I must say, with baptisms down, marriages down, priests down, religious down, liberalism/heresy up than pretty much any other time (Apart from maybe the Arian crisis) I think it’s pretty obvious that we are indeed in crisis.

Praying for us all,

JD

JD, I can’t point to any place where you specifically have condemned the NO. I was not speaking of you, but of others on this Forum who repeatedly condemn the NO as inferior, who make claims implying that the various Popes since Pius X are being swayed by “men,” that the practices that the Vatican has OKed (e.g., Communion in the hand, altar girls, one hour fast before Mass, no veils for women, etc.) are evil because they are different than what was practiced for many hundreds of years, etc.

That list doesn’t include those who repeatedly condemn all music except chant and polyphony and all musical instruments except the pipe organ. They twist what is in the VII documents to make it appear that the Church is in agreement with them.

Their accusations introduce doubts into minds of people like me, who are new to the Church. Other older Catholics in my diocese assure me that our bishop, Thomas Doran, is one of the good ones, and that our diocese is orthodox and relatively free of abuse. But the accusers on this forum imply that our bishop is wicked because he encourages the development of Life Teen Masses, allows the participants in the Children’s Mass at our parish to remain standing during the Consecration instead of kneeling (hard dirty gym floor, many parents with large numbers of children), and uses contemporary (1970s St. Louis Jesuit hymns) for his weekly radio music.

They also criticize the use of applause during the Mass or following the Mass; this happens all the time in the various parishes in our diocese.

If I listened to these people, I would be left with the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic Church is no better than the Protestant Church (in fact, some of the things I listed above would make it the Protestant Church), and I may as well just walk out of pretty much every Mass I attend and go home.

This thread by SJP has implied that there are serious flaws with the OF Mass. I don’t know if that was his/her intention or not. But the fact is, many people who could answer his questions do not visit the Traditional Forum, and so once again, the NO is taking a beating here. My challenge to SJP is to 1) ask Father Serpa in the Apologetics section and 2) post this thread in the Apologetics section.

Another thing that SJP could do is go online and write to various Catholic apologists like Scott Hahn and Steven Ray to ask his/her questions. He would hopefully receive a thoroughly-researched answer instead of opinions and out-of-context quotes from various documents to support those opinions.

There is a TLM in our city and has been since the 1980s, but frankly, I don’t care to ever go to it. Frankly, I am afraid that the people I meet there will be the same critical spirits that seem to promote the TLM on this Board, and I believe that the Bible teaches (in the Old Testament) that a critical spirit is one of the worse sins that we can harbor. It actually kept the Children of Israel OUT of the Promised Land and caused them to wander in the desert for 40 years. Perhaps that’s why some of the people on this Board can never find a “perfect” Mass-- the Lord has condemned them to “wander” for years as punishment for their hyper-critical spirits that can see no good in various new developments in the Catholic Church, and that lead others like me to believe that these things are evil.

I am grateful for people like ethelzguy, EasterJoy, LilyM, and perhaps you, too, who demonstrate that people can love the TLM without being critical of the NO, Vatican II, the popes since Pius X, Marty Haugen, etc…

 

[Johndigger]

JD, I can’t point to any place where you specifically have condemned the NO. I was not speaking of you, but of others on this Forum who repeatedly condemn the NO as inferior, who make claims implying that the various Popes since Pius X are being swayed by “men,” that the practices that the Vatican has OKed (e.g., Communion in the hand, altar girls, one hour fast before Mass, no veils for women, etc.) are evil because they are different than what was practiced for many hundreds of years, etc.

That list doesn’t include those who repeatedly condemn all music except chant and polyphony and all musical instruments except the pipe organ. They twist what is in the VII documents to make it appear that the Church is in agreement with them.

Their accusations introduce doubts into minds of people like me, who are new to the Church. Other older Catholics in my diocese assure me that our bishop, Thomas Doran, is one of the good ones, and that our diocese is orthodox and relatively free of abuse. But the accusers on this forum imply that our bishop is wicked because he encourages the development of Life Teen Masses, allows the participants in the Children’s Mass at our parish to remain standing during the Consecration instead of kneeling (hard dirty gym floor, many parents with large numbers of children), and uses contemporary (1970s St. Louis Jesuit hymns) for his weekly radio music.

They also criticize the use of applause during the Mass or following the Mass; this happens all the time in the various parishes in our diocese.

If I listened to these people, I would be left with the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic Church is no better than the Protestant Church (in fact, some of the things I listed above would make it the Protestant Church), and I may as well just walk out of pretty much every Mass I attend and go home.

This thread by SJP has implied that there are serious flaws with the OF Mass. I don’t know if that was his/her intention or not. But the fact is, many people who could answer his questions do not visit the Traditional Forum, and so once again, the NO is taking a beating here. My challenge to SJP is to 1) ask Father Serpa in the Apologetics section and 2) post this thread in the Apologetics section.

Another thing that SJP could do is go online and write to various Catholic apologists like Scott Hahn and Steven Ray to ask his/her questions. He would hopefully receive a thoroughly-researched answer instead of opinions and out-of-context quotes from various documents to support those opinions.

There is a TLM in our city and has been since the 1980s, but frankly, I don’t care to ever go to it. Frankly, I am afraid that the people I meet there will be the same critical spirits that seem to promote the TLM on this Board, and I believe that the Bible teaches (in the Old Testament) that a critical spirit is one of the worse sins that we can harbor. It actually kept the Children of Israel OUT of the Promised Land and caused them to wander in the desert for 40 years. Perhaps that’s why some of the people on this Board can never find a “perfect” Mass-- the Lord has condemned them to “wander” for years as punishment for their hyper-critical spirits that can see no good in various new developments in the Catholic Church, and that lead others like me to believe that these things are evil.

I am grateful for people like ethelzguy, EasterJoy, LilyM, and perhaps you, too, who demonstrate that people can love the TLM without being critical of the NO, Vatican II, the popes since Pius X, Marty Haugen, etc…

A wonderful and well-thought out post. May the Lord help us all to form a spirit of charity and hope amoung us, whilst also accepting legitimate differences between us.

In Christ,

JD

 

[MrS]

God bless you on your journey towards the Lord in the Catholic Church!

I would be very grateful, if you could show me where I posted that the NO is inferior or that Popes have made mistakes in allowing it?

In fact, Ethelguy over more than one thread has completely misrepresented my position (And other’s positions too), so perhaps, you can see why I am so firm in my rebuttal of his post.

Please show me where I have posted these things. Simply loving the TLM is not the same thing as any of the above.

I do not believe the Pope is a heretic. I do not believe that anyone who doesn’t love the TLM is “fallen away.”

My points on this thread have been:

**1 .God is inspiring many seminarians with traditional values. **

2. Freshman, by the power of the Holy Spirit is claiming to be part of this wave

To which Ethelguy replied with a rant about Traditionalists being disobedient, self-serving rebels.

Decide for yourself whether that was reasonable.

As for the Church being in crisis, I must say, with baptisms down, marriages down, priests down, religious down, liberalism/heresy up than pretty much any other time (Apart from maybe the Arian crisis) I think it’s pretty obvious that we are indeed in crisis.

Praying for us all,

JD

That seems to be another difference between many (not all ) of those who prefer the OF or the EF. I see many of the EF supporters expressing much more concern of those points you reference as crisis in the Church… and not a whole lot of concern expressed by the OF supporters. Perhaps they are just more silent on those issues. Perhaps they are more comfortable with changes not intended.

While my preference leans toward a properly celebrated OF, I just feel there are not that many of them available.

Thus the “bashing” of the OF is not quite true. The “bashing” is applied to the innovative form (IF, if we just use initials).

So, when CAT posts:

JD, I can’t point to any place where you specifically have condemned the NO. I was not speaking of you, but of others on this Forum who repeatedly condemn the NO as inferior, who make claims implying that the various Popes since Pius X are being swayed by “men,” that the practices that the Vatican has OKed (e.g., Communion in the hand, altar girls, one hour fast before Mass, no veils for women, etc.) are evil because they are different than what was practiced for many hundreds of years, etc.

CAT, you need to understand that these “practices” first started as abuses… and for varied reasons, were tolerated, then treated as “norms”. Our prior bishop was quite clear that pastors should not revert to “traditional” practices, less the collection plate suffer.

That list doesn’t include those who repeatedly condemn all music except chant and polyphony and all musical instruments except the pipe organ. They twist what is in the VII documents to make it appear that the Church is in agreement with them.

CAT …Perhaps you could reference where VATII documents have allowed for these changes which many find offensive.

.

 

[ethelzguy]

That seems to be another difference between many (not all ) of those who prefer the OF or the EF. I see many of the EF supporters expressing much more concern of those points you reference as crisis in the Church… and not a whole lot of concern expressed by the OF supporters. Perhaps they are just more silent on those issues. Perhaps they are more comfortable with changes not intended.

While my preference leans toward a properly celebrated OF, I just feel there are not that many of them available.

Thus the “bashing” of the OF is not quite true. The “bashing” is applied to the innovative form (IF, if we just use initials).

.

As a content, post-V2 Catholic, I don’t think we ignore or gloss over the issues facing the Church today. But, I DO think the difference lies in that we don’t blame the V2 Church for anything and everything that we may have angst about within the Church.

 

[MrS]

As a content, post-V2 Catholic, I don’t think we ignore or gloss over the issues facing the Church today. But, I DO think the difference lies in that we don’t blame the V2 Church for anything and everything that we may have angst about within the Church.

Okay, …so?

I don’t blame them either. I blame the lay and clergy in the years following VATII who themselves created the problems/innovations we face today… problems we should face together.

We need, IMHO, two things … neither of which I think we will enjoy in the foreseeable future.
1] Strong Bishops united in their efforts to eliminate any and all abuse.
2] Catholics on both “sides” of the issue who will listen.

.The Catholic Church will become smaller and stronger.

.

 

[ethelzguy]

Okay, …so?

I don’t blame them either. I blame the lay and clergy in the years following VATII who themselves created the problems/innovations we face today… problems we should face together.

We need, IMHO, two things … neither of which I think we will enjoy in the foreseeable future.
1] Strong Bishops united in their efforts to eliminate any and all abuse.
2] Catholics on both “sides” of the issue who will listen.

.The Catholic Church will become smaller and stronger.

Um, how is that seperate or different that “the V2 Church” ?
.

 

[Brenda_V]

But she had many husbands, how does that make her a prostitute? I know people that have been married several times and stayed faithful while married. But they didn’t hang onto the marriage or were divorced and the man left for another woman.

Who are you talking about having many husbands? I remember nothing about Mary Magdalene having multiple husbands but have heard the possibility that she was the prostitute in the story who used the expensive perfume on Jesus feet.

Now the Samaratin woman at the well had multiple husbands - there is no way to relate Mary Magdalene to this woman though.

Sorry, OP I have no answer to your questions because although I prefer the OF I see value in the EF as well and was actually a bit insulted when you posted but decided you weren’t talking to those of us like me but to some unknown OF persons.

 

[dessert]

I think you are confusing stories. Mary is the one who have 7 demons expelled from her. Most scholars would agree that people with certain mental or physical maladies were considered possessed in biblical times. So Mary could have had epilepsy or suffered from a mental illness. Either way the expulsion of demons was a healing act by Jesus.

The woman with many husbands was the Samaritan woman at the well.

Thanks yes you are right I think I was confused for a bit maybe even sexual abuse as some claim it today.

 

[Our_Refuge]

=Cat;3730867]the practices that the Vatican has OKed (e.g., Communion in the hand, altar girls, one hour fast before Mass, no veils for women, etc.) are evil because they are different than what was practiced for many hundreds of years, etc

.
I go to both forms of the Mass on a regular basis so I am not trying to pick sides here. There are some that will say that all of the above is “evil” but they are in such a minority that they do not need to be considered. The majority of traditionalists that I know simply believe that they old ways are simply more “reverent”. Not bad or evil or illicit just a more reverent way of worship
If the President of the U.S. walked in a room and one person sat and one person stood up, clearly one is more respectful that the other. Not evil just more respectful.
The OF that I attend is very reverent and beautiful but I have to drive past about 5 other Catholic churches to get there and that just shouldn’t be necessary.

That list doesn’t include those who repeatedly condemn all music except chant and polyphony and all musical instruments except the pipe organ

.
Maybe because I am a cradel Catholic but I absolutely hate guitars at Mass. I don’t think young Catholics or new converts know what they are missing when traditional music, on the organ, is used at Mass. The piano can be beautiful at times but it doesn’t compare with the richness of the organ.

Their accusations introduce doubts into minds of people like me, who are new to the Church

.
All of the rites are different and all have their place. I plan on attending the Eastern Divine Liturgy and I know that it will be completely different and possibly more reverent than the TLM and the OF. That doesn’t make it better just different. The TLM and the OF and the Divine Liturgy are different expressions of the same faith.

Other older Catholics in my diocese assure me that our bishop, Thomas Doran, is one of the good ones, and that our diocese is orthodox and relatively free of abuse. But the accusers on this forum imply that our bishop is wicked because he encourages the development of Life Teen Masses, **allows the participants in the Children’s Mass at our parish to remain standing during the Consecration instead of kneeling (**hard dirty gym floor, many parents with large numbers of children

)
Here I would differ. I don’t care how hard or dirty the floor is, one should kneel at the Consecration unless physically unable to do so. Is that an abuse? No, but not setting a good example in my opinion.

If I listened to these people, I would be left with the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic Church is no better than the Protestant Church

Just disagreements over degree of reverence. Nothing more than opinions.

This thread by SJP has implied that there are serious flaws with the OF Mass. I don’t know if that was his/her intention or not. But the fact is, many people who could answer his questions do not visit the Traditional Forum, and so once again, the NO is taking a beating here

.

The TLM also takes beatings here.

There is a TLM in our city and has been since the 1980s, but frankly, I don’t care to ever go to it.

Why not? I go to both

Frankly, I am afraid that the people I meet there will be the same critical spirits that seem to promote the TLM on this Board

,

You may find that not to be true.

Perhaps that’s why some of the people on this Board can never find a “perfect” Mass

–
I think there are changes that could be made to have a “perfect” Mass. Pope Benedict seems to be taking us there with some of the things he has been doing during the Masses he celebrates.

 

[Cat]

.
I go to both forms of the Mass on a regular basis so I am not trying to pick sides here. There are some that will say that all of the above is “evil” but they are in such a minority that they do not need to be considered. The majority of traditionalists that I know simply believe that they old ways are simply more “reverent”. Not bad or evil or illicit just a more reverent way of worship
If the President of the U.S. walked in a room and one person sat and one person stood up, clearly one is more respectful that the other. Not evil just more respectful.
The OF that I attend is very reverent and beautiful but I have to drive past about 5 other Catholic churches to get there and that just shouldn’t be necessary.
.
Maybe because I am a cradel Catholic but I absolutely hate guitars at Mass. I don’t think young Catholics or new converts know what they are missing when traditional music, on the organ, is used at Mass. The piano can be beautiful at times but it doesn’t compare with the richness of the organ.
.
All of the rites are different and all have their place. I plan on attending the Eastern Divine Liturgy and I know that it will be completely different and possibly more reverent than the TLM and the OF. That doesn’t make it better just different. The TLM and the OF and the Divine Liturgy are different expressions of the same faith.
)
Here I would differ. I don’t care how hard or dirty the floor is, one should kneel at the Consecration unless physically unable to do so. Is that an abuse? No, but not setting a good example in my opinion.

Just disagreements over degree of reverence. Nothing more than opinions.

.

The TLM also takes beatings here.

Why not? I go to both
,

You may find that not to be true.​

I think there are changes that could be made to have a “perfect” Mass. Pope Benedict seems to be taking us there with some of the things he has been doing during the Masses he celebrates.

(boldface mine)

Our Refuge, perhaps I didn’t make it clear that our bishop, Thomas Doran, has given the OK for the people not to kneel during the Family Mass.

Our bishop is extremely orthodox and conservative. But he has approved standing during this Mass.

Please try to put yourself in the position of a young parent, perhaps with several young children, toddlers, and babies. You are kneeling on a hard gym floor along with your husband, and both of you are holding onto a couple of babies/toddlers. Suddenly your kindergartener takes off and runs up the aisle toward the altar. Try it–it is really hard for a parent to jump up, throw off the toddles, and head their kindergartner off at the pass!

I think that the standing is a safety issue as much as anything. Little ones move fast and you often only have a few seconds to react.

 

[MrS]

(boldface mine)

Our Refuge, perhaps I didn’t make it clear that our bishop, Thomas Doran, has given the OK for the people not to kneel during the Family Mass.

I think that the standing is a safety issue as much as anything. Little ones move fast and you often only have a few seconds to react.

And did he give this OK as a blanket OK for any Mass anywhere, or just for this instance?

.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I support the Holy Catholic Church, which includes all of her Rites and all Liturgical forms of the Mass approved by the Pope. CC

ME TOO
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Cat]

And did he give this OK as a blanket OK for any Mass anywhere, or just for this instance?

.

Just for the Family Mass, the one that is held in the gym. All the school Masses during the week are held in the church building, and the children and others present kneel during the Consecration. Also, during the school Masses, Father will correct the children if they are too noisy or if they don’t stand, sit, or kneel at the proper times. It is a teaching Mass, if that is the correct term.

I don’t know if other parishes in our dioceses have Family Masses. I suspect they do.

The Family Mass in our city is held in our parish on Sunday mornings at 9:30 A.M. from the first Sunday in October through the first Sunday in May. During the last Family Mass, the Blessed Mother is honored by the children.

During the Family Mass, which is held in the school gym, another regular Mass (NO) is held in the church building.

Both Masses are jammed packed, standing-room only, as are most of the weekend Masses other than the 6:30 A.M.

I love playing the piano for Family Mass. I know some people can’t stand this Mass: the “children’s homily” (the children come to the front and sit on a big rug–NOT AROUND THE ALTAR!!), the Children’s Choir, the teenaged lectors, and all the noise and roar of having several hundred families, many of them quite large, in Mass, sitting on bleachers and in folding chairs.

But to me, this “joyful noise” from those hundreds of tiny babies and children is the epitome of reverence. I realize that this is just my opinion, but hey, that’s me.

Families are not forced to come to Family Mass. There are plenty of parents who take their children to the other Masses, but some of the best Catholic families that I know in the parish–the ones with ten children who have also adopted additional children–come to Family Mass.

In fact, quite a few elderly people come, too. I think, like me, they miss the days of having children to raise and the sweet voices (and sometimes not-so-sweet voices!) of little ones, and they like to be around young families.

 

[Cat]

That seems to be another difference between many (not all ) of those who prefer the OF or the EF. I see many of the EF supporters expressing much more concern of those points you reference as crisis in the Church… and not a whole lot of concern expressed by the OF supporters. Perhaps they are just more silent on those issues. Perhaps they are more comfortable with changes not intended.

While my preference leans toward a properly celebrated OF, I just feel there are not that many of them available.

Thus the “bashing” of the OF is not quite true. The “bashing” is applied to the innovative form (IF, if we just use initials).

So, when CAT posts:

JD, I can’t point to any place where you specifically have condemned the NO. I was not speaking of you, but of others on this Forum who repeatedly condemn the NO as inferior, who make claims implying that the various Popes since Pius X are being swayed by “men,” that the practices that the Vatican has OKed (e.g., Communion in the hand, altar girls, one hour fast before Mass, no veils for women, etc.) are evil because they are different than what was practiced for many hundreds of years, etc.

CAT, you need to understand that these “practices” first started as abuses… and for varied reasons, were tolerated, then treated as “norms”. Our prior bishop was quite clear that pastors should not revert to “traditional” practices, less the collection plate suffer.

That list doesn’t include those who repeatedly condemn all music except chant and polyphony and all musical instruments except the pipe organ. They twist what is in the VII documents to make it appear that the Church is in agreement with them.

**FONT=Fixedsys]CAT …Perhaps you could reference where VATII documents have allowed for these changes which many find offensive.
**
.

(boldface mine)

Mr S, I’ll give you an example.

In the Vat II Documents, in the Chapter on Sacred Liturgy, it says in 120. The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument…Other instruments may also be used in divine worship, at the discretion and with the constent of the competent territorial authority…

I don’t see how anyone, reading this, can get the idea that the only instrument that is appropriate for Holy Mass is the pipe organ. It says just as clear as apple jelly that other instruments may be used with the consent of the proper territorial authority (I assume that means the bishop).

So why do we keep seeing threads complaining about pianos and guitars in CAF? Why do people keep criticizing pianos and guitars as “secular”?

To me, this is rebellion against the bishop, which, to me, is a very, very serious sin.

Mr S, I could give more examples, but you have touched a nerve here and perhaps you’ll allow me to explain.

You see, when I was evangelical Protestant, I prided myself upon being a “Christian of the Book.” The BIBLE was my authority.

Then through an awful situation that ended in me and my husband being thrown out of our Protestant church, I came to realize that a Book could not possibly be the Authority that Jesus Christ intended for us to follow, because everyone had a different interpretation.

One of the major reasons that I became Catholic is that I am convinced that the Catholic Church, not the Bible or any book, is the Authority that Jesus Christ Himself appointed, with the Bishop of Rome and all the other bishops in charge here on this earth.

And now, people on this forum keep appealing to the BOOKS to prove their points! Yaaiiee! I don’t want to go back to being a “Christian of the books!”

To me, it’s simple–the Church is my authority, with the Pope and the Bishops acting as Christ’s representatives. They have been given the authority by Jesus to interpret “the books” including “the Book, the Holy Bible.”

So I should listen to, trust, and obey my bishop unless he orders us to commit obvious sin.

And I should not-- I WILL NOT take it upon myself to go back to being like an evangelical Protestant by studying all the “books” and figuring everything out for myself. THAT’S my bishop’s job. The Pope has appointed my bishop, and Christ asks me to obey. Sure, I can ask questions–the Lord seemed to welcome questions from His disciples. But whether or not I like the answer, I must still obey.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Freshman, I hope you do get into the seminary, a very strict and orthodox seminary. You will quickly learn that you have much to learn.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ethelzguy]

You see, when I was evangelical Protestant, I prided myself upon being a “Christian of the Book.” The BIBLE was my authority.

I came to realize that a Book could not possibly be the Authority that Jesus Christ intended for us to follow, because everyone had a different interpretation.

One of the major reasons that I became Catholic is that I am convinced that the Catholic Church, not the Bible or any book, is the Authority that Jesus Christ Himself appointed, with the Bishop of Rome and all the other bishops in charge here on this earth.

To me, it’s simple–the Church is my authority, with the Pope and the Bishops acting as Christ’s representatives. They have been given the authority by Jesus to interpret “the books” including “the Book, the Holy Bible.”

And I should not-- I WILL NOT take it upon myself to go back to being like an evangelical Protestant by studying all the “books” and figuring everything out for myself. THAT’S my bishop’s job. The Pope has appointed my bishop, and Christ asks me to obey. Sure, I can ask questions–the Lord seemed to welcome questions from His disciples. But whether or not I like the answer, I must still obey.

What an outstanding post. You Go, Girl !!

:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[SJP]

For the second time, I’m going to try to bring this discussion back to the OP.

I’ve asked three questions:

1. Do you recognize the validity of the principle of Organic Development and its importance to Catholic worship?

1. Please provide one historical example of an instance in which the liturgy of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church has been reformed to the extent that it was in 1970 (the creation of the OF of the Mass)

1. Please demonstrate (using historical examples) how the creation of the OF of the Mass could be considered an Organic Development.

bpbasilphx gave an honest answer to question 2, but has yet to illustrate how Alcuin’s reform of the Roman Sacramentary could be considered to be on par with the reforms of 1970. Furthermore, AJV noted that:

In any case, I would say that the NO is a far more drastic reform. Take the Ordinary of the Mass- the Carolignians barely subtracted, they only added. Here and there by the 12th century one witnesses perhaps a slight displacement (e.g. the positioning of the Agnus Dei). The NO on the other hand thoroughly reforms the Ordinary and all the Propers at a shot. Rarely does one have the option of using old prayers as on might have had with Alcuin.

Apart from bpbasilphx’s response, other responses can basically be summed up by the following logic:
The Church has the authority to do as she wishes; therefore it is inappropriate to question liturgical practices.

So here is my question: With respect to the liturgy, is it possible for a Pope or Bishop to make an imprudent decision? Are all decisions related to liturgical practice automatically protected by the Holy Ghost?

I look forward to your responses.

 

[roccoangelo]

Greetings,

I support both forms of the same roman rite… and speaking of which, check out this video of the O.F. being offered Ad Orientem:thumbsup:

youtube.com/watch?v=blM80QeuseQ

Dominus Vobiscum,
Rocco