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Freshman88
Guest
I don’t have a regular parish because I live at home during the summer, and I am at school the rest of the year. During the school year I am too busy to participate with the Newman centre, despite that I helped somewhat to help organize a TLM for the students. I also did my best to participate in their events, but even then I was to strapped for time.
While I am at home I am split between an EF parish 40mins away, a Divine liturgy 40mins in the other direction (I like to go with my Baba- who can get lonely) and my parish at home (so I can go with the rest of my family). There are no programs at my home parish, and I have no desire to be a Eucharistic minister or a reader.
Despite this I live my faith, like most Catholics. I pray, receive the Sacraments and try to be a witness and grow in closeness to Christ. That is the name of being a Catholic, our goal isn’t to be the most active parishioner, its to grow in closeness to Christ, (for some that is being an active parishioner, given my circumstances, it isn’t for me)
Our faith isn’t measured by how many bingos we’ve set up, or how many times we’ve read at mass. Our faith is measured by our fidelity to our vocation, whatever that may be. I am not called to be an active parishinor for the time being, given my current situation.
Really, I don’t know why I have to justify myself to you.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I have heard this, but there has been a shocking drop in faith in mainstream Protestant churches, too…as in, sharp drops in people who believe in a literal Resurrection. That is not to say that Vatican II was without negative effects. Still, other churches have not found the last half of this century to be easy, either. It is as if there was a big push across the board to make everything spiritual into something that is simply poetic or metaphorical.
Could this have anything to do with
a) the degree to which we expect medicine or science to fix that which used to have no recourse, save prayer?
b) the fraction of people who now attend college, and the number of middle-aged people who had more education than their parents and were not taught to value their parents’ wisdom while in college?
c) the fraction of people who don’t live near their extended family?
d) the fraction of people who have used mind-altering drugs for the “spiritual experience”?
e) the loss of faith in authority, following Watergate and the Vietnam War, etc.? How much politics has come to be about looks, and not about character or substance?
and so on…it’s a different world, a world in which many people say, “Ah, Grandma, nobody thinks like that/does it like that any more…” and not just because of Vatican II.
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consumedconvert
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catharina
Guest
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japhy
Guest
To have people stand when during the Mass? He can say, for his diocese, that people remain standing after the Agnus Dei. But I do not think it is within his authority to impede the universal tradition of the Church that, at least during the Consecration, the faithful are to kneel. In the US, we kneel for the entire Eucharistic Prayer. (Cf. GIRM 43) It’s a real shame that some churches are built (for the Roman Rite) without kneelers, as if to discourage people from kneeling. We’re not the Eastern Church. We express our piety differently: we kneel. GIRM 311 says that the postures of the faithful must be taken into account when building churches and arranging their furnishings.
I am not sure, from the GIRM, that the Bishop has the authority to dictate standing during the Eucharistic Prayer. Perhaps the Conference of Bishops can determine that, but they have not: they have called for kneeling throughout the whole Eucharistic Prayer.
He was quoting Fr. John Zuhlsdorf. The link, it appears, was slightly cut off. Here it is for real.
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THurifer2
Guest
Since the Catholic Church is the True bride of Christ of course the protestant churches were affected by the aftermath of VII…supernaturally that is. Even though protestantism didn’t acknowledge the Catholic CHurch…it still benefitted from the Catholic Church supernaturally…after all the Catholic church is where grace flows from…
We have to agree that the Catholic Church is the true bride of Christ. RIgth? The source of Grace…Right? How can negative affects on the Bride of Christ NOT cause supernatural effects on the world?
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
and why is it you disagree? I just don’t understand how these bishops feel that they can do this when this was the norm for hundreds of years? Is it the “spirit of vatican II” thing?
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ethelzguy
Guest
I didn’t ask you to “justify” yourself to me.
I was simply asking a question, based on your posts.
Among your posts regarding discernment, you discussed the possibility of diocesan/parish life.
The life of a diocesan priest goes far beyond saying Mass, hearing confessions, and study. Actually, when you observe and analyze, the typical parish priest spends less than 8 hours per week saying Mass.
The parish priest spends much time tending to his parish flock. Bingos, Fall-Fests, Fish Frys, Youth Groups, Scripture Studys, the list goes on and on. Many of these aspects of parish life you have clearly expressed no interest in.
As you continue your discernment, you might consider the entire spectrum of parish life. It may or may not be the right choice for you.
TBL
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MrS
Guest
Maybe if more parish priests would “express no interest” (or at least oversight, not time-consuming involvement) in these things, and delegate them to parishioners, then the priest could devote more time to the sacraments and priestly involvement.
If I need a priest at 2am or 2pm, I can only hope he is available and not tied up at bingo or business meetings, or tired out from being so involved.
I have had pastors who could be found praying in Church in their “off time”. And I have had pastors who were on so many boards and committees and involved in non-priestly functions.
I prefer the former.
I perhaps a priest becomes a dedicated priest because of sincere consecrations and confessions… not personal ambitions, or advice from forum posters.
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Freshman88
Guest
Thank you, but I reserve such advice for ordained men, and those giving me spiritual counsel.
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Cat
Guest
Yes, he has the authority. That much about the “books” I do know.
Do you know who Bishop Thomas Doran is?
He has his doctorate in Canon Law, and he is a member of several Vatican committees. He is considered one of the most conservative and orthodox bishops in the U.S. I have seen myself how he puts a stop to small abuses in the OF, and he has continued establishing TLMs in various cities in our diocese, a practice that started with the bishop in the 1980s.
This man is not a liberal, a modernist, or anything near it. He is as straight as you can get.
One clue to his orthodoxy is that many Catholics hate him and consider him a pompous–well, I won’t type the word that they call him.
Please keep in mind that the Family Mass we are speaking of is held in a gymnasium with folding chairs. The floor is hard boards. Most of the people in attendance are families with small children and babies. Bishop Doran has made a wise decision to allow these parents to stand instead of kneel. I know for a fact that some of the most conservative Catholics in our parish attend this Mass with their children (homeschoolers, Rosary prayers, abortion protesters, etc.)–they don’t kneel.
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japhy
Guest
That’s a different matter, and Bishop Doran is acting within the authority granted him by GIRM 43. “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.”
Bishop Doran is simply allowing the concession found in the GIRM for the case of a Mass with families (with children) in a gymnasium with folding chairs and no kneelers and a hardwood floor; he is conceding that they have a “good reason”. He is not exerting authority over the GIRM, but acting within it.
But if my Bishop were to say that, in our diocese, we will now be standing throughout the entire E.P., he would be overstepping his bounds.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
So what you are saying CAT is that the bishop is having the mass said in consideration of the liturgical environment for those who attend mass. We just got into our new worship space at my parish (I call it that because it is not the Shrine that is going to be built. That is several years away. ) After meeting in rented school auditoriums etc. for years. we have completed the building that ultimately will be the family center. Until this move, our pastor had the congregation sit from the Sanctus to the Great Amen, as many are elderly people and kneeling would have been extremely difficult for them. We have our own auditorium set up now and it is very beautiful liturgically. We have individual chairs, each with a kneeler on the back for those who are able to knee. Most do. Many of the disabled sit. Thats OK. They are at mass in a good liturgical environment. Beautiful raised altar, Tabernacle behind the main altar. Stations of the cross around the inside, statues in appropriate places… Our shrine will be built as a copy of our patron saint’s church in Italy. It will be most beautiful. We have what I call a good conservative no nonsense Archbishop. I see the church in my own archdiocese making great strides and I see this through out many parts of this nation. In effect, what I am saying is that the Roman Catholic Church is alive and well. There are several hundred RCIA each year through out our Archdiocese. The seminary is growing and enrollment has quadrupled within the past 6 years. Granted they are not all ours. Our portion is increased from 3 to 32. The Church is alive.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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ethelzguy
Guest
Hang around CAF for a while, you’ll get plenty of spiritual counsel.
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ethelzguy
Guest
This is exactly why so many of these threads go absolutely nowhere. There is an obvious contingent of those who feel that they are somehow ordained to determine what our clergy should and shouldn’t be doing, and how and when the should or shouldn’t be doing it.Maybe if more parish priests would “express no interest” (or at least oversight, not time-consuming involvement) in these things, and delegate them to parishioners, then the priest could devote more time to the sacraments and priestly involvement.
If I need a priest at 2am or 2pm, I can only hope he is available and not tied up at bingo or business meetings, or tired out from being so involved.
I have had pastors who could be found praying in Church in their “off time”. And I have had pastors who were on so many boards and committees and involved in non-priestly functions.
I prefer the former.
I perhaps a priest becomes a dedicated priest because of sincere consecrations and confessions… not personal ambitions, or advice from forum posters.
.
Who are we to say whether our pastor should or shouldn’t be involved in various aspects of parish life?
Obviously, there are posters on this forum who clearly see it to be their “duty” to “keep our clergy in line”
Sheesh
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Cat
Guest
japhy, I am very grateful to you for your post #171, pointing out that GIRM #43 makes provision for bishops to allow for standing at the consecration if various circumstances are present.
This is an illustration of what I have been trying to point out in this thread. When people rely on the “books” instead of on their ordained leaders, they can easily obtain only a partial knowledge of the rules and rubrics, which they may use to wrongfully judge and condemn a Mass, a practice, etc.
japhy, I appreciate so much that you were willing to point out that there is more in the rubrics than what many of us know. Thank you.
Our bishop KNEW that he had the authority to allow the attendees at Family Mass to stand instead of sit. I’m sure he (and many other bishops) know more about the “books” than most of us will ever know.
I still say that we should stop trying to do the bishop’s job for him. Instead of assuming that something “different” in the Mass is an “abuse,” why don’t we assume that Father and Bishop know exactly what they are doing.
Certainly there are obvious abuses (e.g., not saying the Words of Consecration but substituting another poem or prayer, or e.g. liturgical dancing, which we were told in RCIA is forbidden in the United States in Catholic Churches). If these are a regular part of Mass, then the faithful should respectfully go to Father.
But to question every little variance in the Mass and accuse Father of abuse is certainly not good for us or our Church. It makes us miserable and allows the evil spirit of criticism and bitterness to take up residence in our hearts. This surely dampens our enthusiasm for sharing our Church with our non-Catholic friends. Why not trust Father and the Bishop to know their jobs, and trust the Holy Spirit to convict them if they do not know their jobs?
And if this doesn’t work, then why not find a Mass that is suitable for our particular needs? I realize that this isn’t always possible; if you can’t move, then you need to “nestle, not wrestle,” as Corrie ten Boom expressed it so well. Draw near to God and ask Him to give you patience and reverence, even if you feel that your Mass is incorrect.
This is an illustration of what I have been trying to point out in this thread. When people rely on the “books” instead of on their ordained leaders, they can easily obtain only a partial knowledge of the rules and rubrics, which they may use to wrongfully judge and condemn a Mass, a practice, etc.
japhy, I appreciate so much that you were willing to point out that there is more in the rubrics than what many of us know. Thank you.
Our bishop KNEW that he had the authority to allow the attendees at Family Mass to stand instead of sit. I’m sure he (and many other bishops) know more about the “books” than most of us will ever know.
I still say that we should stop trying to do the bishop’s job for him. Instead of assuming that something “different” in the Mass is an “abuse,” why don’t we assume that Father and Bishop know exactly what they are doing.
Certainly there are obvious abuses (e.g., not saying the Words of Consecration but substituting another poem or prayer, or e.g. liturgical dancing, which we were told in RCIA is forbidden in the United States in Catholic Churches). If these are a regular part of Mass, then the faithful should respectfully go to Father.
But to question every little variance in the Mass and accuse Father of abuse is certainly not good for us or our Church. It makes us miserable and allows the evil spirit of criticism and bitterness to take up residence in our hearts. This surely dampens our enthusiasm for sharing our Church with our non-Catholic friends. Why not trust Father and the Bishop to know their jobs, and trust the Holy Spirit to convict them if they do not know their jobs?
And if this doesn’t work, then why not find a Mass that is suitable for our particular needs? I realize that this isn’t always possible; if you can’t move, then you need to “nestle, not wrestle,” as Corrie ten Boom expressed it so well. Draw near to God and ask Him to give you patience and reverence, even if you feel that your Mass is incorrect.
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Freshman88
Guest
I hardly think it’s wise or prudent to rely on an internet forum for something as serious as vocational discernment or spiritual counsel.Hang around CAF for a while, you’ll get plenty of spiritual counsel.
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japhy
Guest
I think MrS makes some good points, ethelzguy. If a priest is involved in too many activities that his priestly office is put on the back burner, perhaps his priorities are not set right. Just like if I’m involved in so much stuff that I neglect my wife, my priorities are not set right.
Priests are set apart for the ministry of the sacraments, and pastors have additional responsibilities related to the flock they have been given. But a pastor is still a priest. If a parish has minimal time for confessions because the priests are busy with other functions, perhaps the priests should seek to find other people who can fill in for them at those functions.
ethelzguy, could you make a constructive response to MrS and myself, rather than just a “sheesh”?
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