OF Supporters Please Stand Up!

[ethelzguy]

So yes, you are correct that the CC decides on the particulars. Now I only wish they were more clear and authoritative in their decisions.

I’d like to ask, how many of you here feel that the “revised” Mass to be released in the next year or two will bring any significant relief to the traditional crowd? Or, is the Church unfortunately creating a “third” Mass?

Personally, it doesn’t matter to me. I lived through 65 and 69, and I’ll live through this one just Jim-Dandy too.

But, for the TLM/traditional crowd, is anything less than a full TLM going to bring any peace? I’ll be equally curious how the NO/OF crowd (if there is such a thing) will react?

TBL

 

[japhy]

I’d like to ask, how many of you here feel that the “revised” Mass to be released in the next year or two will bring any significant relief to the traditional crowd? Or, is the Church unfortunately creating a “third” Mass?

How could a translation of the 2002 Roman Missal be considered a “different” Mass from the translation of the 1975 Roman Missal? They’re both the same “strain” (if you will). This “third typical edition” replaces the previous two (1975 and 1969).

It’s not the same as the introduction of the 1969 liturgy.

 

[Cat]

Am I missing something?

Someone posted a picture of a person holding up a Rosary in church.

It is probably during a Mass, although I can’t tell from that picture. For all we know, maybe it’s during a Protestant (Pentecostal) worship service, and the Christian in the picture prays what Protestants call the “Ecumenical Rosary.” (That’s how my husband got started learning about the Marian Rosary.)

What’s wrong with that?

I know lots of people, especially elderly people, who hold their Rosaries throughout Mass. I think it’s a comfort thing, or perhaps something that reminds them that they should be in an attitude of prayer throughout Mass. My husband will often start praying a Rosary before Mass, and then finish the Rosary after Mass, and he keeps the Rosary in his hands throughout the Mass.

My husband made several of my Rosaries, and I think that if (when) he dies (before me? ), I would probably find a great deal of comfort in holding onto his Rosaries during Holy Mass.

Why are we ascribing evil to this picture? Some people hold their car keys or the purse throughout Mass.

Or like I said, am I missing something? Thank for filling me in.

 

[Joannm]

Tell the Bishops who expect a certain “monetary” return from the parishes of their priests. Perhaps secular priests do sometimes involve themselves in non spiritual matters, but I think for the most part all are very concerned with the spiritual welfare of their parishioners.

Bishops also expect priests to serve on diocesan committees, head up programs, sit on boards, and, as you state, bring in money. They must balance this with running a parish, which is like a business.

 

[THurifer2]

The pedophile crisis is a recent example. According to his grandmother, my husband’s grandmother’s parents left their local parish and started attending the local Protestant church .

So they left for protestantism where pedophilia is equally prevalent. You do realize the percentage of Priest pedophiles is about par with other sectors of Society. My town of 6000 people has had TWO (2) clegyman caught as pedophiles. One was baptist and the other was Non-denom evangelical.

Certainly evidence that when the church wanes…so does the world…even the world that does not aknowledge the church.

On a side note. I am convinced that pedophelia is more prevalent in protestantism…where there is no hierrarchy to answer to. Aprotestant minister can just pick up an move on…no bishop to worry about.

 

[EasterJoy]

So they left for protestantism where pedophilia is equally prevalent. You do realize the percentage of Priest pedophiles is about par with other sectors of Society. My town of 6000 people has had TWO (2) clegyman caught as pedophiles. One was baptist and the other was Non-denom evangelical.

Certainly evidence that when the church wanes…so does the world…even the world that does not aknowledge the church.

On a side note. I am convinced that pedophelia is more prevalent in protestantism…where there is no hierrarchy to answer to. Aprotestant minister can just pick up an move on…no bishop to worry about.

My point had nothing to do with Protestantism. My point is that there were pedophiles and other serious problems to be found in the Catholic clergy long before people started coming forward to shed light on them…and way before Vatican II.

That is not to say I think the problem was ever widespread. I think the problem of hiding the problem, though, was too much the norm. Sometimes that was for the sake of appearances, but sometimes I think it was because bishops didn’t want to believe such an awful thing couldn’t be turned away from. Nevertheless, there were problems before Vatican II.

 

[ethelzguy]

How could a translation of the 2002 Roman Missal be considered a “different” Mass from the translation of the 1975 Roman Missal? They’re both the same “strain” (if you will). This “third typical edition” replaces the previous two (1975 and 1969).

It’s not the same as the introduction of the 1969 liturgy.

From what I’ve been reading here, the traditionalist crowd seems to feel that it will be more like the 65-69 Mass, thus my question. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[japhy]

From what I’ve been reading here, the traditionalist crowd seems to feel that it will be more like the 65-69 Mass, thus my question. Sorry for the confusion.

Maybe we’re talking about different things, then…

Oh, were you talking about the potential for a revised Ordinary Form of the Mass which returns to some of the elements of the Extraordinary Form? That’s a hypothetical; there’s no known timetable for a “reform of the reform” of the newer liturgical texts.

I was referring to the upcoming English translation of the 2002 Roman Missal, which is the same form of Mass as the current English Mass we attend today (with a few small changes, like the reintroduction of a vigil here, an altered prayer there, etc.). That is coming, hopefully in a year or two; it will be a more faithful translation of the 2002 (Latin) Missal. Saying “and also with you” will be replaced by saying “and with your/thy spirit”. (Like it should have been in 1970!)

 

[ethelzguy]

Maybe we’re talking about different things, then…

Oh, were you talking about the potential for a revised Ordinary Form of the Mass which returns to some of the elements of the Extraordinary Form? That’s a hypothetical; there’s no known timetable for a “reform of the reform” of the newer liturgical texts.

I was referring to the upcoming English translation of the 2002 Roman Missal, which is the same form of Mass as the current English Mass we attend today (with a few small changes, like the reintroduction of a vigil here, an altered prayer there, etc.). That is coming, hopefully in a year or two; it will be a more faithful translation of the 2002 (Latin) Missal. Saying “and also with you” will be replaced by saying “and with your/thy spirit”. (Like it should have been in 1970!)

I guess we ARE talking about the same thing, I just had a different interpretation of what I’ve read. My understanding was that the upcoming “rewrite” would create something of a hybrid between the current NO and the TLM.

 

[japhy]

I guess we ARE talking about the same thing, I just had a different interpretation of what I’ve read. My understanding was that the upcoming “rewrite” would create something of a hybrid between the current NO and the TLM.

There’s talk of a “rewrite” – I know of it as “the reform of the reform” – but that is still just a hypothetical. However, it is probably the future of the Church, because many (like Fr. John Zuhlsdorf) see Pope Benedict’s liberalization of the Extraordinary Form as part of a “marshall plan” whereby the two forms will exert a gravitational pull on one another. This does not mean a willy-nilly mingling of the two forms (which is currently prohibited), but it does mean there may be permissions granted for incorporating, for example, the Prayer of the Faithful into the E.F., and incorporating, for example, the triple-“Lord, I am not worthy” or some of the excised prayers into the O.F. (I’m just making guesses here…)

What’s coming in a year or two (for English-speaking Catholics) is nothing of the sort, though. It’s merely the latest edition of the Ordinary Form (the third typical edition, 2002 Missale Romanum) finally translated faithfully from the Latin into English. It will still look like the Ordinary Form we know today, just with a better soundtrack.

It won’t be a “hybrid”, since the 2010 (?) English translation of the 2002 Missal replaces the 1985 English translation of the 1975 Missal, so, assuming a parish can afford a new Roman Missal (under $200 for an altar-sized edition, under $75 for a chapel-sized edition), they should purchase it and begin to use it (as well as the 2002 GIRM) and stop using the older edition.

 

[Our_Refuge]

Am I missing something?

Someone posted a picture of a person holding up a Rosary in church.

It is probably during a Mass, although I can’t tell from that picture. For all we know, maybe it’s during a Protestant (Pentecostal) worship service, and the Christian in the picture prays what Protestants call the “Ecumenical Rosary.” (That’s how my husband got started learning about the Marian Rosary.)

What’s wrong with that?

I know lots of people, especially elderly people, who hold their Rosaries throughout Mass. I think it’s a comfort thing, or perhaps something that reminds them that they should be in an attitude of prayer throughout Mass. My husband will often start praying a Rosary before Mass, and then finish the Rosary after Mass, and he keeps the Rosary in his hands throughout the Mass.

My husband made several of my Rosaries, and I think that if (when) he dies (before me? ), I would probably find a great deal of comfort in holding onto his Rosaries during Holy Mass.

Why are we ascribing evil to this picture? Some people hold their car keys or the purse throughout Mass.

The picture is supposed to be from the OF during the Our Father where everyone is holding out their hands. Someone has a rosary in their hands.
There was a recent thread where a poster claimed that back in the old days everyone prayed the rosary because they couldn’t understand the Latin in the Tridentine Mass.
The picture, I am sure, was posted to show that even in the OF some pray the rosary.

 

[palmas85]

Where then, pray tell, are all these assorted photos and videos coming from if none of us are taking recording devices to Mass?

Was the photo yesterday of someone holding their hands up and out during the Our Father with a rosary in their hand “abuse”?

Progressive thinkers often scream bloody murder about the bad old days when the poor downtrodden masses huddled in the pews, unable to understand what was going on at the Altar, indeed, not even knowing what was going on at the Altar, resorted to praying their rosaries:bigyikes: during Mass.

I think the picture clearly shows one thing and one thing only, That some people pray the Rosary during the Mass, even today in this era of full and active participation.

True, some did back then,but most did not, and some do today, but most do not.

 

[ethelzguy]

Progressive thinkers often scream bloody murder about the bad old days when the poor downtrodden masses huddled in the pews, unable to understand what was going on at the Altar, indeed, not even knowing what was going on at the Altar, resorted to praying their rosaries:bigyikes: during Mass.

I’ll have to get back to my priest on this, but yesterday he was telling me about a centuries-old scandal in the Church, where multitudes of priests were illiterate, and didn’t even know Latin, and eventually got caught “mumbling” through Mass.

One thing about Mass in the vernacular, everyone understands what is being said, no doubt about it. Especially the abuse hunters.

 

[Cat]

Progressive thinkers often scream bloody murder about the bad old days when the poor downtrodden masses huddled in the pews, unable to understand what was going on at the Altar, indeed, not even knowing what was going on at the Altar, resorted to praying their rosaries:bigyikes: during Mass.

I think the picture clearly shows one thing and one thing only, That some people pray the Rosary during the Mass, even today in this era of full and active participation.

True, some did back then,but most did not, and some do today, but most do not.

It doesn’t show that at all!

It shows a person holding a Rosary.

In my previous post, I mentioned two possibilities:

1. The person was praying the Rosary before the Mass started, and continued to hold their Rosary through the Mass.
2. The person derives comfort from holding their Rosary, or perhaps finds the Rosary an aid to maintaining a more reverent attitude.

My husband often holds one of his Rosaries throughout Mass (except during the reception of Holy Communion). He starts the Rosary before Mass, and finishes it after Mass. He doesn’t pray the Rosary during Mass.

I know others who do the same thing. I do it myself sometimes.

I’m sure that sometimes people do pray the Rosary during Mass. I’m sure others think about the Cubs game or their girlfriend or their baby who’s fussing in their arms. We’re humans. We do stuff like that. Hopefully the person who prays the Rosary during the Mass will eventually learn that this isn’t what they are supposed to be praying. But it’s hardly a grave sin, surely.

 

[Like]

I’ll have to get back to my priest on this, but yesterday he was telling me about a centuries-old scandal in the Church, where multitudes of priests were illiterate, and didn’t even know Latin, and eventually got caught “mumbling” through Mass.

One thing about Mass in the vernacular, everyone understands what is being said, no doubt about it. Especially the abuse hunters.

Please do ask your priest about the bolded above in blue. And please ask for a reliable source for this MAJOR abuse! Thanks!

 

[PrayforMallory]

I’ll have to get back to my priest on this, but yesterday he was telling me about a centuries-old scandal in the Church, where multitudes of priests were illiterate, and didn’t even know Latin, and eventually got caught “mumbling” through Mass.

One thing about Mass in the vernacular, everyone understands what is being said, no doubt about it. Especially the abuse hunters.

I don’t doubt this. However, in the specific eras in which this was more likely, I would think these illiterate men would be as poorly acquainted with their vernacular script as Latin.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Please do ask your priest about the bolded above in blue. And please ask for a reliable source for this MAJOR abuse! Thanks!

My guess would be that this would have been from a pre Trent era, before the reformation. Sad to say, the average education of priests at that time was what would be the equivalent of a 6th grade education today. One of the many things that Trent did was to improve the educational standard of all priests, to where today, the average priest has the equivalent of 8 years of college. Big difference.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ethelzguy]

Please do ask your priest about the bolded above in blue. And please ask for a reliable source for this MAJOR abuse! Thanks!

I have asked, and he said he’d get back to me. Said he was told about it during a lecture several years back. Seemed to think it was during medieval times, which was a period of many abuses.

I’ll poke around on line as time permits to see what I find as well.

 

[elts1956]

It sounded to me like MrS was offering a suggestion (albeit to this forum, not to a priest in particular).

Well, gee, there must be a middle ground, then!

I don’t think I know anyone on this forum who has taken recording equipment to Mass to document abuse, perceived or real. I have never attended a Mass for the purpose of witnessing liturgical abuse. A lot of the videos/stills of liturgical abuse I have seen are bona fide abuse. I have personally witnessed liturgical abuse (some not as bad as others).

I’m curious, though… if I were to come here claiming to have witnessed a heinous liturgical abuse, would anyone believe me with documentary evidence? And if I provided such evidence, would I be chided for having brought recording equipment to that particular Mass to capture such evidence?

Hello again Japhy. Since I have not been witness to liturgical abuse that I know of, what do you condiser it to be? Other than the fact the NO does not have all of the same prayers etc. that the TLM has? I keep hearing abuse, abuse, but other than “hearing about clown masses, dancing in the aisles” etc., I have no knowledge of Mass abuse, enlighten please". You can send a private message to me if you like. I would really like to know what is going on. Thanks.

 

[elts1956]

It sounded to me like MrS was offering a suggestion (albeit to this forum, not to a priest in particular).

Well, gee, there must be a middle ground, then!

I don’t think I know anyone on this forum who has taken recording equipment to Mass to document abuse, perceived or real. I have never attended a Mass for the purpose of witnessing liturgical abuse. A lot of the videos/stills of liturgical abuse I have seen are bona fide abuse. I have personally witnessed liturgical abuse (some not as bad as others).

I’m curious, though… if I were to come here claiming to have witnessed a heinous liturgical abuse, would anyone believe me with documentary evidence? And if I provided such evidence, would I be chided for having brought recording equipment to that particular Mass to capture such evidence?

Please do ask your priest about the bolded above in blue. And please ask for a reliable source for this MAJOR abuse! Thanks!

Hi, what I know of the Medeval history of the Church, I remember that “many” of the priests/monks who served in rural areas throughout Europe were illiterate. They came from the common people who were mostly illiterate. Whether these monks/priests knew Latin, or were taught it by someone more educated, I don’t know. Apparently this was not considered “abuse” at that time, but a way of life. Some of these priests/monks were also married which to me said more for them than some of the Popes who had mistresses.