Ohio Voters Reject Public-Union Curbs

[Scott_Lafrance]

They do not have them in their pockets as much as their oppostition does., nor have they since carter…that’s a long time of feeling sorry for the rich…and changing laws all in their favor…40 years…to end up with this mess.

Business don’t care about political parties. Large corporations and investment banks are the real rulers of this country and they are the ones who tell congressmen how to vote and the President what to do. Parties are just diversions for simple minded people to give them something to bicker about.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Instead of being jealous…one should join a union and be a good capitalist and capitalise.
They do not make more than the guys in their trade in the private sector in all things…I am a truck driver…and the public union truck driver does not make as much as me. Matter of fact they sometimes work with us PT to make ends meet.

The common argument to say to the workers who are not makking much would be to say…do the same as the rich guy does…
I would say…isntead of being jealous of union pay and bennies…if you want it…all you have to do is join the union.
Jealous of their lobby? Join the union and you can have a say in what that lobby wants.

You have no idea what capitalism is, do you?

 

[shockerfan]

You have no idea what capitalism is, do you?

he does not

 

[human_being]

Why should a unionized public service employees be afforded salaries and benefits that the taxpayers themselves don’t have?

Which taxpayers are we talking about here? Should they make what only the lowest rung on the ladder can afford? It would be a great study for you to find that some very profitable businesses pay no tax at all. And it is they, who shove it off on you. Yet you vote with them every chance you get…They are not helping you by taking away the ‘safety net’ which is the unions…Because as you vote for more and more of their policies…they put alot of you closer and closer to you needing that union safety net…I’ve worked with and heard of guys working with guys who probablly opposed us at one time…and are greatful that we are still there to keep the ‘work’ part of their life still bearable. From my hunch and observations, they use the 'small business lobby" to shove off alot of their real supporters and money donors obligations on them same small businesses…I beleive small business is defined as businesses are defined as less than 500 employees…I’m an LTL driver and go to alot of small businesses…and 500 employees is a deceptive term for ‘small business’…I would think 500 is a very good sized business…not small. When the Walmart or Cabella’s of your business trade comes to your town and shoves all their tax obligations off on you as they show hefty profits…You might want a union job instead of the job they offer you to replace your business when they sink it…so to take away that safety net is a foolish business move.

 

[human_being]

You have no idea what capitalism is, do you?

Read that bottom writing from the Pope under all my posts…Anybody who wants to take away the rights of the unions…does not know what he is saying by ‘honoring’ there.

Don’t seem like much ‘promoting’ going on here either.

 

[human_being]

You have no idea what capitalism is, do you?

I do not honor and support the capitalism which is preached by the right wing think tanks…But just because i do not support that type of capitalism…does not mean i am not capitalist…It works best when it sserves the majority as it did from WWII till the seventies…Not as it has since Reagan, IMO.

 

[human_being]

Business don’t care about political parties. Large corporations and investment banks are the real rulers of this country and they are the ones who tell congressmen how to vote and the President what to do. Parties are just diversions for simple minded people to give them something to bicker about.

You’ve hit a good point there…Knowing what you know there, Why would you want to stomp out some of the only money which is used for people who actually live here? Which is the union lobby. If they are this close to having all laws in there favor…why would you allow them to take the unions percentage from 12% to only the 6% whioch is in the private sector? Because once they get that 6% of the public unions gone, which is what they are trying to do(Check out Rand Pauls anti-union website) you are leaving the only lobby in favor of big business with nobody left to fight them…The small business men will never be able to fight them.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I do not honor and support the capitalism which is preached by the right wing think tanks…But just because i do not support that type of capitalism…does not mean i am not capitalist…It works best when it sserves the majority as it did from WWII till the seventies…Not as it has since Reagan, IMO.

What has been created by Good Old Boy Republicans and corporations is NOT capitalism, it is fascistic corporatism and I detest it as much as I detest communism, because its not even about money, its about power.

 

[wondrousgnat]

Before the Civil War the South had no industry. Many workers were slaves and had no money. People who were free had to compete with the slaves for jobs so they made little money. Since Southerners were making little money they were unable to support industry.

There has been in recent decades an increasing difference between the rich and the poor. Even the Heritage Foundation has acknowledged that. In the same period one can also see the decline of the unions.

I have relatives who live in New Orleans and in Southern Illinois. Both places have jobs heavy with minimum wage and no benefits. Many are working for less than minimum. Why aren’t the jobs moving there if labor is so cheap?

 

[incense]

Why aren’t the jobs moving there if labor is so cheap?

Because they’re still not as cheap as foreign markets.

Anybody remember Presidential candidate Ross Perot and his prediction of the great sucking sound – jobs being sucked across the border if GATT and NAFTA were passed? That’s what’s happened.

It started with manufacturing jobs. And the joke about help lines sending you to India. But it’s spreading to other jobs, the wages will go down everywhere here. The government jobs (like teachers) are being threatened now. Almost everyone else will be threatened at some point. We can’t compete with slave labor wages in other countries.

 

[wondrousgnat]

I remember in the 70s when factory jobs started to go overseas. The white collar workers were saying that companies have to get lean and mean and that the blue collar workers will have to learn to adjust. Now how a blue collar guy in his 50s was supposed to adjust I never heard.

But now that many white collar jobs (including some friends who had the same jobs for 30 years) are losing their jobs I do not hear them saying that they themselves will have to learn to adjust.

 

[incense]

I remember in the 70s when factory jobs started to go overseas. The white collar workers were saying that companies have to get lean and mean and that the blue collar workers will have to learn to adjust…
But now that many white collar jobs (including some friends who had the same jobs for 30 years) are losing their jobs I do not hear them saying that they themselves will have to learn to adjust.

Do you mean white collar workers, or management, upper management for that matter? Because white collar engineers and technicians and accountants and secretaries, all had to get lean and mean too.

The average citizen was very much against GATT and NAFTA at the time, that’s why Perot was so successful as a 3rd party candidate, but it was shoved down our throats by both Republicans and Democrats. I cant’ think of her name, but the female democrat Congresswoman from CO, her husband was the lawyer who (helped) write the treaties.

 

[scipio337]

They do not have them in their pockets as much as their oppostition does., nor have they since carter…that’s a long time of feeling sorry for the rich…and changing laws all in their favor…40 years…to end up with this mess.

Do you have any facts to back up your claim?

I do.

opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

How many are “in the pocket” of the opposition? The National Auto Dealers Assn? The NRA?

Look at who contributes to whom, and tell me who is in who’s pocket.

You seem to “feel” for the “little guy”, but while taxes are raised on EVERY taxpayer to support public union cronyism, your response is “well, taxes never really go down”.

Awfully nice of ya.

 

[human_being]

What has been created by Good Old Boy Republicans and corporations is NOT capitalism, it is fascistic corporatism and I detest it as much as I detest communism, because its not even about money, its about power.

I actually think I am in some kind of agreement on this one with you.

 

[human_being]

Because they’re still not as cheap as foreign markets.

Anybody remember Presidential candidate Ross Perot and his prediction of the great sucking sound – jobs being sucked across the border if GATT and NAFTA were passed? That’s what’s happened.

It started with manufacturing jobs. And the joke about help lines sending you to India. But it’s spreading to other jobs, the wages will go down everywhere here. The government jobs (like teachers) are being threatened now. Almost everyone else will be threatened at some point. We can’t compete with slave labor wages in other countries.

I can’t beleive I am actually reading some posts which I agree with on here latellly…This site used to make me so darned misreable…change is good.

 

[human_being]

Do you have any facts to back up your claim?

I do.

opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

How many are “in the pocket” of the opposition? The National Auto Dealers Assn? The NRA?

Look at who contributes to whom, and tell me who is in who’s pocket.

You seem to “feel” for the “little guy”, but while taxes are raised on EVERY taxpayer to support public union cronyism, your response is “well, taxes never really go down”.

Awfully nice of ya.

When do they go down? They will not go down if the Koch’s get their way either…They will step in with ideas to privatize, get them gov’t tax subsidies for their buddies to tke over, for the work will not go away…The work will remain…They want the tax subsidies. They want them tax dollars…I heard that the original Boston tea Party was not about cutting taxes…it was about who would get the gov’t work…from King George. And that is the thing which is done by your hero’s now…They privatize and the wealthy get more wealthy and the rest go down…less bennies and pay for the former public employees…and more for the people who run the new Privatized business…good for the few…bad for the many…New buildings may be built…and paid for with tax breaks and subsidies…shove it off…Your idea will give to less people…Mine gives to more and more benefit…For as cheaper jobs come…so too do the property values fall…for the new jobs cannot pay for housing…The owner will be well off…but the rest go down hill.

And my main problem with this attack on the unions is that the Koch brothers who pay for this stuff…are corporate guys…and they do things to favor corporations. Corporations can be owned by anybody in the world…The union people live here
Did the founding fathers intend that our laws and legislations should be made by and for american citiznes or foreigners?For union opposition is mostly corporations and their lobby… And the whole intent, IMO, of this attack is to reduce the union numbers and money. 12% of our workforce is union, 6 being public, and 6 being private…If the anti-union people get their way thhey reduce the number to the just 6% in the private sector…
That leaves just half the money and numbers to fight legislations which could indeed benfit foreign interests over American interests.

 

[human_being]

Do you have any facts to back up your claim?

I do.

opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

How many are “in the pocket” of the opposition? The National Auto Dealers Assn? The NRA?

Look at who contributes to whom, and tell me who is in who’s pocket.

You seem to “feel” for the “little guy”, but while taxes are raised on EVERY taxpayer to support public union cronyism, your response is “well, taxes never really go down”.

Awfully nice of ya.

My argument to your link is this…hat union PAC funds are watched very closely and they are my lobby in a financial sense. And the con tributions seem to be very transparent. I am not happy with the democrats before Obama. I like his attitude towards the unions. Carter passed the motor carrier safety act which deregulated trucking…destroying what Hoffa senior built. Clinton signed NAFTA and he, and his wife are out around the world right now working on Freetrade deals with Panama, and Columbia, and Korea…the unions are not really for these things…but Clinton and Carter are from southern states which had everything to gain from these deals and nothing to lose…manufacturing was more in the North before them…This is the group who turned leaving us with nobody really to back us…The New Dems under Carter…they turned to ‘traditional’ GOP donors for contributions also…and passed more in their favor than in the unions favor, IMO.

As far as transparency i can show you this from your link:

opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000186

Now this is the transparent side of their donations…Other things which are not so transparent are the contributions which they contribute to their lobby groups…such as Americans for Prosperity…which makes the rounds on this particular union busting issue on this thread. It is much harder to track the contributions to and from these think tanks…Where is Americans For Prosperity on your list?
Where is Heritage Foundation? It is much easier to see the union contributions than these underhanded ones which can’t be seen to easilly althiough we know that very wealthy individuals contribute to these think tanks.
Here is a link to AFP…Now how can we tell who donates to them?
americansforprosperity.org/about/directors Although it is all over the web thaat the Koch brothers do…It is easy to demonize the unions who are transparent and watched closely…But how about those who hide and contribute in secret?
I searched your link for Heritage and AFP and found nothing…the heavy hitters can donate to these groups and not be seen doing it…and they can donate tons to different ones.

 

[incense]

What has been created by Good Old Boy Republicans and corporations is NOT capitalism, it is fascistic corporatism and I detest it as much as I detest communism, because its not even about money, its about power.

I believe the phrase used today is “Crony Capitalism” and both Democrats and Republicans use it. There’s a recent book out, I only heard a little of an interview on the radio, but he traced the IPO (initial public offering) stock that Pelosi and Gore bought and how they rammed through legislation giving money from the gov to the corps. Pelosi and Gore made millions. That’s why everyone’s now saying that congress is exempt from insider trading laws. I’m not saying that Republicans didn’t do it too, probably did, it’s just the part of the interview that I heard.

I also saw an interview a few years ago where the economist differentiated micro and macro economics in a unique fashion, he said micro is business competing against each other. Macro is where the business uses the government to give it unfair market advantages.

Anyway, not Republican or Democrat, just corruption.

 

[human_being]

I believe the phrase used today is “Crony Capitalism” and both Democrats and Republicans use it. There’s a recent book out, I only heard a little of an interview on the radio, but he traced the IPO (initial public offering) stock that Pelosi and Gore bought and how they rammed through legislation giving money from the gov to the corps. Pelosi and Gore made millions. That’s why everyone’s now saying that congress is exempt from insider trading laws. I’m not saying that Republicans didn’t do it too, probably did, it’s just the part of the interview that I heard.

I also saw an interview a few years ago where the economist differentiated micro and macro economics in a unique fashion, he said micro is business competing against each other. Macro is where the business uses the government to give it unfair market advantages.

Anyway, not Republican or Democrat, just corruption.

Agreed.