OK, I Am Confused. Do Mormons Believe In The Trinity?

[Stephen168]

I just got back from the Catholic Encyclopedia, where I struggled through the whole thing. It seems that it is neither moral nor acceptable to perform an abortion for any reason whatsoever, not to save the life of the mother or for any other reason; killing the child to save the mother is absolutely forbidden.

However.

If something must be done to save the mother’s life, and that ‘something’ just happens to result in the death of the fetus, well then, that’s all right.

That’s how y’all get around the problem of an ectopic pregnancy. You can’t abort the fetus. But you CAN remove the obstacle from the fallopian tube…or remove the fallopian tube that is causing the pain and the inevitable hemorrhage that will kill her. If that obstacle just happens to be a fetus—oh, well.

Or, if a mother has cancer and requires treatment…chemo or radiation…you can’t abort the baby. However, you CAN give her the chemo and radiation even though you know that both things will kill the child. Oh, well.

In fact, the Catholic church position on this is a masterpiece of obfuscation and sophistry.

I prefer a little honesty in things. If we acknowledge that the medical procedure that is about to save the woman’s life is absolutely about ending the life of the unborn child, and do that from the get go, we are more likely to look for alternatives, don’t you think? Let’s not kid ourselves; to say that surgically removing an ectopic pregnancy is NOT ending the life of the child–and rather directly at that—is a lie. Coating it in religious rhetoric doesn’t make it less so.

We should face that. Acknowledge that. Allow for the grief–and embrace the added motive to find another way of dealing with the medical emergency. To do otherwise, it seems to me, is hypocrisy.

Homicide is the killing of a human being. There are three sub categories of homicide: murder, self defense, and accident. Murder is the willful killing of another innocent human being. Self defense is the willful killing of a human being while in the act of defending ones own life or the life of another. Accident is the killing of a human being with no intent to kill them. Murder is a sin against God and the moral natural law. Self-Defense and accidents are not.

Killing a baby because it was conceived by the acts of rape or incest is murder. Murder which the Mormon Church teaches to be OK.

 

[Stephen168]

Homicide is the killing of a human being. There are three sub categories of homicide: murder, self defense, and accident. Murder is the willful killing of another innocent human being. Self defense is the willful killing of a human being while in the act of defending ones own life or the life of another. Accident is the killing of a human being with no intent to kill them. Murder is a sin against God and the moral natural law. Self-Defense and accidents are not.

Killing a baby because it was conceived by the acts of rape or incest is murder. Murder which the Mormon Church teaches to be OK.

I would like apologize to anyone that finds this to contain obfuscation and sophistry.

 

[cothrige]

I just got back from the Catholic Encyclopedia, where I struggled through the whole thing. It seems that it is neither moral nor acceptable to perform an abortion for any reason whatsoever, not to save the life of the mother or for any other reason; killing the child to save the mother is absolutely forbidden.

However.

If something must be done to save the mother’s life, and that ‘something’ just happens to result in the death of the fetus, well then, that’s all right.

Abortions don’t save mothers, they kill babies. You can deliver a baby at any point and hope for its survival and help the mother’s just as well. Whether you deliver a dead baby or a live one has no impact on saving the mother, and only results in making sure the baby has no chance at all. I really cannot imagine that there are people out there who really do think that because a baby might die after delivery they should be murdered in the womb. Either you are confused or you have a severely deficient moral compass.

 

[cothrige]

Killing a baby because it was conceived by the acts of rape or incest is murder. Murder which the Mormon Church teaches to be OK.

I have often wondered about the logic behind such a suggestion. Since when do we as a people believe that the child is guilty of the sin of the father? A father is a rapist, and the appropriate response is the execution of his children? Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that I can even begin to imagine what a womany may go through having to carry such a person’s baby, but it doesn’t really change the fact does it? Unless the baby is the rapist it really doesn’t seem sensible to suggest it should die because of it.

 

[Scriptorian]

I have often wondered about the logic behind such a suggestion. Since when do we as a people believe that the child is guilty of the sin of the father? A father is a rapist, and the appropriate response is the execution of his children? Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that I can even begin to imagine what a womany may go through having to carry such a person’s baby, but it doesn’t really change the fact does it? Unless the baby is the rapist it really doesn’t seem sensible to suggest it should die because of it.

I am really concerned about all of you Catholics on this thread. Why do you let Mormonpro dictate the terms of our discussion. I told you that he is a con-artist. Don’t let him manipulate you. For nearly 50 posts or more you have carried on about how Mormons are murderers. You have sworn up and down that we believe in abortions. We do not.

Stephen, Rebecca – you have made it clear that you do not care about the truth either. You just want to make Mormons seem as evil and heartless as you can. It is dishonest and unappreciated.

We are on the same side here. Why are you fighting so hard to make us the same as those who want abortion to be as common as pregnancy itself? We are not pro-choice. We are not Planned Parenthood. We do not advocate partial-birth, late-term, early term, or any kind of post-conception form of “birth control” at all. We are on the same side of this issue!!

Why can’t you understand? We agree on the heinousness of abortion.

WE AGREE!!! LET’S MOVE ON!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am really concerned about all of you Catholics on this thread. Why do you let Mormonpro dictate the terms of our discussion. I told you that he is a con-artist. Don’t let him manipulate you. For nearly 50 posts or more you have carried on about how Mormons are murderers. You have sworn up and down that we believe in abortions. We do not.

Stephen, Rebecca – you have made it clear that you do not care about the truth either. You just want to make Mormons seem as evil and heartless as you can. It is dishonest and unappreciated.

We are on the same side here. Why are you fighting so hard to make us the same as those who want abortion to be as common as pregnancy itself? We are not pro-choice. We are not Planned Parenthood. We do not advocate partial-birth, late-term, early term, or any kind of post-conception form of “birth control” at all. We are on the same side of this issue!!

Why can’t you understand? We agree on the heinousness of abortion.

WE AGREE!!! LET’S MOVE ON!

I don’t think mormons are murderers. I do believe that your church teaches there are circumstances where taking a life is not a sin. I also understand that this is a rare occurrence. I believe that individuals who follow what your church is teaching, in good conscience, will find God’s Mercy. The people who are teaching these things, from the top, I don’t know that they will. If I were lds, I would have real trouble teaching this to other people.

But yes, to the point where your exceptions begin, we have the same stance. I wouldn’t say we are in agreement, not as long as you believe God can answer a prayer with an affirmative to take a life.

 

[sweetnay]

I don’t think mormons are murderers. I do believe that your church teaches there are circumstances where taking a life is not a sin. I also understand that this is a rare occurrence. I believe that individuals who follow what your church is teaching, in good conscience, will find God’s Mercy. The people who are teaching these things, from the top, I don’t know that they will. If I were lds, I would have real trouble teaching this to other people.

But yes, to the point where your exceptions begin, we have the same stance. I wouldn’t say we are in agreement, not as long as you believe God can answer a prayer with an affirmative to take a life.

Rebecca nailed it. Forget being “manipulated” by mormonpro, I’m worried about you Mormons!–being “manipulated” by a “holy ghost” prompting you to directly kill your unborn child, in albeit rare circumstances, but nevertheless.

 

[zerinus]

Okay, you smart guys. I have bumped the thread:

The Killer Law

which is devoted specifically to the subject of abortion. I suggest you transfer your discussions on abortion to that thread, instead of hijacking this thread from its intended purpos, which is the Trinity rather than abortion.

 

[Stephen168]

… this thread from its intended purpos, which is the Trinity rather than abortion

The trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Mormons claim the holy ghost can now tell them is it OK to murder, contrary to reason. It seems like another case of Mormonism throwing reason out the door to left sin in. Why would it be reasonable to murder babies conceived by rape and not any other baby? Makes me wonder who this Mormon ‘ghost’ really is.

 

[zerinus]

The trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Mormons claim the holy ghost can now tell them is it OK to murder, contrary to reason. It seems like another case of Mormonism throwing reason out the door to left sin in. Why would it be reasonable to murder babies conceived by rape and not any other baby? Makes me wonder who this Mormon ‘ghost’ really is.

If you insist on derailing this thread from its intended purpose, I will complain to the mods and have it closed down. This thread is about the Trinity, not abortion. If you want to talk about abortion, there is a thread devoted to that topic, and you can post your messages there.

zerinus

 

[dianaiad]

Homicide is the killing of a human being. There are three sub categories of homicide: murder, self defense, and accident. Murder is the willful killing of another innocent human being. Self defense is the willful killing of a human being while in the act of defending ones own life or the life of another. Accident is the killing of a human being with no intent to kill them. Murder is a sin against God and the moral natural law. Self-Defense and accidents are not.

Killing a baby because it was conceived by the acts of rape or incest is murder. Murder which the Mormon Church teaches to be OK.

The CHURCH teaches that this is a matter of deep spiritual concern, and is not automatically OK. In the case of rape or incest (which is often worse than rape alone, being, usually, the result of rape by a father or brother and inflicted upon a girl far too young to either consent OR to bear a child safely). These situations are taken case by case, with counseling and spiritual guidance.

I reached my own conclusion on this quite some time ago. I would not abort in the event of either thing happening to me, nor would I advise my daughters to abort.

Your backing off from the ‘save the woman’s life and health’ criticism is noted.

 

[Stephen168]

I reached my own conclusion on this quite some time ago. I would not abort in the event of either thing happening to me, nor would I advise my daughters to abort.

I’m glad to see you disagree with your Church.

Your backing off from the ‘save the woman’s life and health’ criticism is noted.

If you want me to address the ‘life and health of the mother’ part of Mormon teaching, I can but I have not up to this point. It is easy to note something that never was. My argument has always been the irrational view of the Mormon Church on the rape and incest exception. For the third time: Why would it be reasonable to murder babies conceived by rape and not any other baby? No Mormon has been able to answer it.

 

[Stephen168]

If you insist on derailing this thread from its intended purpose, I will complain to the mods and have it closed down. This thread is about the Trinity, not abortion. If you want to talk about abortion, there is a thread devoted to that topic, and you can post your messages there.

zerinus

Yes, your position is without defense and I can understand why you don’t want to talk about it

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, your position is without defense and I can understand why you don’t want to talk about it

Stephen,
Do you realize that you have control issues? Do you realize that you have been brought up that way, evidently? Do you realize that control issues are what can lead to a young man or any man to objectify women and girls, based on how they themselves have been controlled using fear and intimidation tactics during their childhood? Do you realize that going down that path, and condoning going down that path of control issues, leads a society to the very kinds of issues you think you are decrying? Why don’t you preach to your own church about the control issues that lead to millions of abortions in the Latin American world because the men are not properly taught to respect girls and women (evidently)?

 

[RebeccaJ]

lol, like clockwork. Mormons always resort to personal attacks and armchair psychology.

 

[Stephen168]

lol, like clockwork. Mormons always resort to personal attacks and armchair psychology.

I’ve seen them resort to personal attacks when their position is hopeless but this armchair psychology is new. Would you say this is typical?

 

[Jerusha]

I would say it is new, and Parker is unique.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve seen them resort to personal attacks when their position is hopeless but this armchair psychology is new. Would you say this is typical?

Predictable. It’s in tandem with the personal attacks.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would say it is new, and Parker is unique.

Nah, he is the same old same old.

 

[Jerusha]

Yeah, he rebukes Stephen, but he fails to rebuke the old troll Zerinus. Unless he has hope that he will respond to sideways criticism.