Ok this fries me!

[ToeInTheWater]

Says who?

As a priest, I pray the Liturgy of the Hours before the Blessed Sacrament. Some times from my breviary and sometimes using my iPhone, if I forgot my breviary.

I find beyond absurd this concept that praying cannot involve a book. Surely you attend Mass – and see the priest using a missal throughout?

Again, I see the Church opening very wide doors to a lot of people with different ways of approaching God; and some humans trying to close those doors as much as possible so that only a small handful can trickle in at a time. Why?

It goes on to say:

'The Internet is relevant to many activities and programs of the Church— evangelization, including both re-evangelization and new evangelization and the traditional missionary work ad gentes, catechesis and other kinds of education, news and information, apologetics, governance and administration, and some forms of pastoral counseling and spiritual direction. Although the virtual reality of cyberspace cannot substitute for real interpersonal community, the incarnational reality of the sacraments and the liturgy, or the immediate and direct proclamation of the gospel’

…it does go on to say:

'…it can complement them, attract people to a fuller experience of the life of faith, and enrich the religious lives of users. It also provides the Church with a means for communicating with particular groups—young people and young adults, the elderly and home-bound, persons living in remote areas, the members of other religious bodies—who otherwise may be difficult to reach.’

Yet, when understood as a consistent whole with the rest of the document, I don’t think this paragraph reads as being a supportive case for Internet usage when in a church.

But most of this topic hasn’t been about people using the Internet at Adoration, but merely using technology to substitute for paper books. Some have even opined that not even traditional paper books should be brought to Adoration.

I would certainly wonder what the point is of Adoration if people were merely “chatting” about secular matters and not paying attention to God, whether this be using a phone or doing so face to face, BUT there is no proof the woman who made the OP so angry, was actually doing that.

 

[friardchips]

Again, I see the Church opening very wide doors to a lot of people with different ways of approaching God; and some humans trying to close those doors as much as possible so that only a small handful can trickle in at a time. Why?

In defense of the other opinion to yours, I don’t think anyone here is attempting to close doors. It is more about trying to open them in a way that simultaneously offers to people some good example.

For instance, would you think it is okay to eat a packet of crisps in church? Maybe if someone was about to have diabetic attack, then they could be excused. But for the most part, it would be out of place…

Obviously, this example might exceed the Internet-in-church opposition in terms of seriousness, but still, it is an example proving that some external things are irreverent. Certainly, when people put external actions above interior disposition as the priority then this can be a kind of idol worship. So okay, But I think that point, about interiority, works both ways.

But most of this topic hasn’t been about people using the Internet at Adoration, but merely using technology to substitute for paper books. Some have even opined that not even traditional paper books should be brought to Adoration.

I think there is an ideal. While Exposition might not be the case in the thread, the Tabernacle is still present. God is still there. It is still the House of God. HOWEVER, I think there has to be room for people growing in awareness. It might be the case that all people OUGHT to just sit there with God. But we all go to God through different means and in different ways. And we might not be able to remember what it is we are needing to remember, like prayer books. So, if the Church says that is okay, then that is the case. But the ideal, is probably just being with God. Worship is for us. Not for God. Worship adds nothing to God. Worship is our way of showing love. But a lot of prayer, the most important aspect is God talking to us and not the other way around. Think of intense contemplatives vowed to silence. I don’t have a problem with prayer books or devotional material but I do think that the Internet specifically is problematic because we know what it is attached to - the Internet when connected, is connected to a company, a business, live, active: one’s ISP - and so in a sense it is still in communication with the outside world when one is supposed to be in a holy environment. I don’t know about Tablet technology but presumably it is still connected to some outside line. And also, because the Internet and phones, in today’s world is largely representative of fixation - humanity seems to be considering access to the Internet as an extra ligament rather than a tool that cannot be left behind or forgotten, for even one little hour of the day.

I would certainly wonder what the point is of Adoration if people were merely “chatting” about secular matters and not paying attention to God, whether this be using a phone or doing so face to face,…

Agreed.

BUT there is no proof the woman who made the OP so angry, was actually doing that.

I think the OP was worried and so was putting her concerns forward to air and vent them, that the OP could again feedback. I don’t think we should judge the OP for that. I think we can deduce that to have a deep sense of reverence is a good thing, not a bad thing, and so, while people saying that such and such a person could have done this or that for any reason is sensible feedback, I think the OP also needs to be commended not rebuked or belittled because she was being honest on here. I think the OP raised a very important concern.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think there is an ideal. While Exposition might not be the case in the thread, the Tabernacle is still present. God is still there. It is still the House of God. HOWEVER, I think there has to be room for people growing in awareness. It might be the case that all people OUGHT to just sit there with God. But we all go to God through different means and in different ways. And we might not be able to remember what it is we are needing to remember, like prayer books. So, if the Church says that is okay, then that is the case. But the ideal, is probably just being with God.

As long as you acknowledge that is your opinion, I am not going to argue. What I do have a problem with, is when people argue “this is objective Truth” and denigrate all other opinions except theirs are invalid “excuses”.

Think of intense contemplatives vowed to silence. I don’t have a problem with prayer books or devotional material but I do think that the Internet specifically is problematic because we know what it is attached to - the Internet when connected, is connected to a company, a business, live, active - the ISP - and so in a sense it is still in communication with the outside world when one is supposed to be in a holy environment.

Do you think every Catholic is called to the contemplative life, cut off from the outside world, as a spiritual ideal? I personally doubt this is the case. There are many different Church approved ways to God.

 

[friardchips]

As long as you acknowledge that is your opinion, I am not going to argue. What I do have a problem with, is when people argue “this is objective Truth” and denigrate all other opinions except theirs are invalid “excuses”.

I added to my post after your reply.

I don’t mind argument as long as it is constructive. Better word is ‘debate’.

So again, in short, I think there are objectively excessive uses of external gadgets that could imply a lack of reverence, and a kind of fixation to such things. I think it is a mistake to misjudge piety for judging. We can piously know what is reverent, externally, without judging an individual.

Do you think every Catholic is called to the contemplative life, cut off from the outside world, as a spiritual ideal? I personally doubt this is the case. There are many different Church approved ways to God.

Certain ways of life are not for everyone. But that was an extreme example to prove a point. Actually, every person is invited into deep personal relationship with God, interiorly.

 

[DeniseNY]

I’m late to this thread, but I think the real issue from the OP wasn’t really that someone may have been using their phone to read prayers, but that someone’s phone rang while in the Adoration Chapel. It’s really not asking too much for people to turn of their ringers. They can leave the phone on vibrate if they are expecting a call, or simply have it in their hand; they’ll see when a call comes in.

 

[Sarcelle]

I added to my post after your reply.

I don’t mind argument as long as it is constructive. Better word is ‘debate’.

So again, in short, I think there are objectively excessive uses of external gadgets that could imply a lack of reverence, and a kind of fixation to such things. I think it is a mistake to misjudge piety for judging. We can piously know what is reverent, externally, without judging an individual.

Certain ways of life are not for everyone. But that was an extreme example to prove a point. Actually, every person is invited into deep personal relationship with God, interiorly.

What is problematic to me is how you view piety. As if 21st century technology is fundamentally at odds with piety and reverence.

Also using the Rosary app on an iPhone to pray the Rosary is not the same as eating crisps at mass. I myself use the EWTN website to look up prayers and novenas.

Piety is an interior disposition, a gift of the Holy Spirit. Technology does not have any power to obliterate that if the soul is genuinely and reverently communing with God.

 

[pianistclare]

Piety is an interior disposition, a gift of the Holy Spirit. Technology does not have any power to obliterate that if the soul is genuinely and reverently communing with God.

Well stated. Yes.

 

[friardchips]

What is problematic to me is how you view piety. As if 21st century technology is fundamentally at odds with piety and reverence.

It can be, at times. Not all the time.

Also using the Rosary app on an iPhone to pray the Rosary is not the same as eating crisps at mass.

Which I clearly stated in my post.

I myself use the EWTN website to look up prayers and novenas.

That is between you and God, and possibly your neighbour, when in Church.

Piety is an interior disposition, a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

Technology does not have any power to obliterate that if the soul is genuinely and reverently communing with God.

“The power to obliterate”…what do you mean? No one is judging individuals. I thought I also made that abundantly clear?!

 

[Sarcelle]

It can be, at times. Not all the time.

Which I clearly stated in my post.

That is between you and God, and possibly your neighbour, when in Church.

Agreed.

“The power to obliterate”…what do you mean? No one is judging individuals. I thought I also made that abundantly clear?!

No you did not make it abundantly clear.

You keep referring to standards of piety which implies to me that you do have a standard of piety that you apply to someone which is based on exteriors. The problem is when you judge a particular action or look as being impious you are judging someone’s interior spiritual condition, based on what you thought you observed.

You mentioned standards of piousness?

Care to elaborate?

 

[pianistclare]

Right. Coming out with a declarative statement, and then trying to make it mold to other viewpoints so as not to offend, rarely works.

That’s why I said (referring to my own post) that I don’t particularly get using electronics for prayer in my own prayer life (and I DO own most of the Catholic apps) , but I understand it is very helpful to others.

I expressed my personal preference without making others seem less pious.

 

[Sarcelle]

Right. Coming out with a declarative statement, and then trying to make it mold to other viewpoints so as not to offend, rarely works.

That’s why I said (referring to my own post) that I don’t particularly get using electronics for prayer in my own prayer life (and I DO own most of the Catholic apps) , but I understand it is very helpful to others.

I expressed my personal preference without making others seem less pious.

Stating a preference is okay, I get it.

It’s quite another thing to say standards, which means it is binding on others.

We do not have the authority to bind others to our own personal preferences.

 

[friardchips]

No you did not make it abundantly clear.

You keep referring to standards of piety which implies to me that you do have a standard of piety that you apply to someone which is based on exteriors. The problem is when you judge a particular action or look as being impious you are judging someone’s interior spiritual condition.

Wrong. Scripture does says that we would be judged ourselves if we judge others, yes. Scripture also reads as Jesus saying to us, why can we not judge for ourselves between what is good and what is not - meaning outward expressions.

So if someone does something that we think is not okay, we can raise the point in some way. That is looking at an exterior action. If we think: ooh, this person is bad, a bit like what you and some others are doing on this thread, simply because a few of us happen not to like the Internet and devices in Church, then that would be wrong. But I can say emphatically, that an outward expression can be out of place, without judging any person’s soul. By posters stating that this is the case, it is in fact such posters that are judging. Reverse judgment.

What is more annoying and unfair than having a stranger look at someone and then be misjudged based on a moment.

You mentioned standards of piousness?

Care to elaborate?

Not really. I have already laid out my points clearly. I don’t post for effect.

It is those who say that holding the scriptural opinion that there is a time and a place for all things, is wrong, who are the ones that are judging.

In fact, how else do humans beings learn that something might feel out of place, without that thing happening and then being able to make a judgment about the exterior action and occurrence. It remains an abstract idea until the idea becomes a reality. In this case, someone bringing a phone into a church and fiddling with it, is only an abstract idea, unless I have seen those do it. Do I judge them for it. No. It is not my capacity to be able to. But I can know that I would desist if possibly from doing that myself. I learn from the reality of it having happened.

If you decide to take this objective analysis personally then you are judging not me.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

So if someone does something that we think is not okay, we can raise the point in some way. That is looking at an exterior action. If we think: ooh, this person is bad, a bit like what you and some others are doing on this thread, simply because a few of us happen not to like the Internet and devices in Church, then that would be wrong. But I can say emphatically, that an outward expression can be out of place, without judging any person’s soul. By posters stating that this is the case, it is in fact such posters that are judging. Reverse judgment.

I have not seen anyone claiming that “this person is bad”. Disagreeing with someone does NOT equal judging that person is Bad. Many politicians seem not to know that, but this is not a political discussion.

It is those who say that holding the scriptural opinion that there is a time and a place for all things, is wrong, who are the ones that are judging.

Please tell me who those people are, AFAIK no one has claimed on this topic that it is wrong to think “there is a time and place for all things”. Disagreeing on the application of a principle, is not the same as discarding the principle itself. No one has claimed that “it is fine to come to Adoration or Mass and chat on a cell phone and ignore God”, I think very few people would, they would state the time and place for that is not in Church. That is different from claiming that simply using a cell phone, even to access pious readings, is inherently wrong.

 

[Sarcelle]

Wrong. Scripture does says that we would be judged ourselves if we judge others, yes. Scripture also reads as Jesus saying to us, why can we not judge for ourselves between what is good and what is not - meaning outward expressions.

So if someone does something that we think is not okay, we can raise the point in some way. That is looking at an exterior action. If we think: ooh, this person is bad, a bit like what you and some others are doing on this thread, simply because a few of us happen not to like the Internet and devices in Church, then that would be wrong. But I can say emphatically, that an outward expression can be out of place, without judging any person’s soul. By posters stating that this is the case, it is in fact such posters that are judging. Reverse judgment.

Not really. I have already laid out my points clearly. I don’t post for effect.

It is those who say that holding the scriptural opinion that there is a time and a place for all things, is wrong, who are the ones that are judging.

In fact, how else do humans beings learn that something might feel out of place, without that thing happening and then being able to make a judgment about the exterior action and occurrence. It remains an abstract idea until the idea becomes a reality. In this case, someone bringing a phone into a church and fiddling with it, is only an abstract idea, unless I have seen those do it. Do I judge them for it. No. It is not my capacity to be able to. But I can know that I would desist if possibly from doing that myself. I learn from the reality of it having happened.

If you decide to take this objective analysis personally then you are judging not me.

If an outward behavior is is out of place and indeed reflective of the interior conditions, lack of reverence, etc., we have bigger problems than the use of technology in Church.

However, as I said before, if the soul is properly disposed to God, than there should be no problems.

By the way, who determined that technology does not belong in Church?

A priest here already posted saying he uses his phone for prayers.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sarcelle]

A couple of points:

I must admit, I don’t mind people looking at books when there. If people need to look at a book then they need to look at a book. Whatever helps them. That is their business.

But I think technological advancements that so often represent addictions to worldly indulgence is a step up from paper products and are to a large degree out of place in a holy environment.

.

Care to elaborate on the above?

 

[Sarcelle]

No one is judging anyone’s soul. But there are objectively things that are outward signs of reverence just as their outward expressions of lack of reverence.

Internet in the House of God seems out of place.

This is your personal opinion.

Also your words above show that you do consider people who do use technology in Church as being irreverent. I did not notice any conditionals in that statement above.

You mentioned you did not judge, yet your own words above tell a different story.

 

[friardchips]

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I don’t agree to anything other than we are opposed in opinion.

If you wish to leave it then that is up to you.

 

[friardchips]

You mentioned you did not judge, yet your own words above tell a different story.

Incorrect. This is reverse judgment.

 

[Sarcelle]

Incorrect. This is reverse judgment.

Then I have nothing else to say to you.

 

[Peebo]

I’ve only got a tracfone…which I probably use once every six months…maybe…no high tech
I phone…my wife and myself have an hour each Thursday evening in the Adoration chapel…we’ll take our prayer books and rosaries…I’ve seen a few people with cell phones…haven’t really given it much thought what they’re doing …as long as they’re not belting out AC/DC on their phone or being disruptive then that’s between them and Jesus…(and they haven’t been disruptive)…just as why I’m there is between me and Jesus…as long as I have reverence for where I am…and in whose presence I’m in… it’s a blessed time.