Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

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NotWorthy said:
St. John of the Cross always said, ******************“Do not seek Christ without the cross”.

******************We must take up our Crosses daily, and as you well put, we must always remember the suffering He did for our sakes, in order to appreciate the Salvation He offers us!!!
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Even if we have to have a ‘graven image’ on it?
 
tm30 said:
He was only “asleep” because the Redemption had not yet occurred. The bosom of Abraham was emptied of its inhabitants when Jesus died on the cross and preached to them during His dormition. Unless you still believe that the Bosom of Abraham is still operating, where do you propose the soul goes between death and the final judgment?
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Lazarus was DEAD. Scripture tells us exactly what happens to the soul when we die.
 
Old_Scholar said:
It’s always strange for me when I have to relate history to catholics who don’t seem to know very much about it.

It surely seems the early church didn’t think so much of those images… I guess this is another of those “truths” that was changed back by some past group of men or of some ‘pope.’
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Iconoclasm
Iconoclasm (Eikonoklasmos, “Image-breaking”) is the name of the **heresy **that in the eighth and ninth centuries disturbed the peace of the Eastern Church, **caused the last of the many breaches with Rome that prepared the way for the schism **of Photius, and was echoed on a smaller scale in the Frankish kingdom in the West. The story in the East is divided into two separate persecutions of the Catholics, at the end of each of which stands the figure of an image-worshipping Empress (Irene and Theodora).

Council of Constantinople (A.D. 754)
In 754 the Iconoclast Emperor Constantine V called in the imperial city a council of 338 bishops. Through cowardice and servility they approved the heretical attitude of the emperor and his father Leo III, also the arguments of the Iconoclast party and their measures against the defenders of the sacred images. They anathematized St. Germanus of Constantinople and St. John Damascene, and denounced the orthodox as idolaters, etc.; at the same time they resented the spoliation of the churches under pretext of destroying images (see ICONOCLASM).

newadvent.org/cathen/04312a.htm

This was a heretical council called by an Emperor, and was NOT an infallible teach of the Holy Catholic Church.
Old_Scholar said:
It’s always strange for me when I have to relate history to catholics who don’t seem to know very much about it.
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You would do better to have us think you are ignorant of the CC than to make cut and paste posts like these and prove your ignorance.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Here we do it with humans and a real baby.
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Now you are changing your answer. My original question was regarding manger scenes, 99.9 % are statuary in nature. And you know darn well I wasn’t asking about Nativity plays.😦
 
qui_est_ce said:
Now you are changing your answer. My original question was regarding manger scenes, 99.9 % are statuary in nature. And you know darn well I wasn’t asking about Nativity plays.😦
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I won’t disagree with you that 99.9% of them are not with human beings. But there are several churches where I live that have live manger scenes on the church grounds during the season and thousands of cars drive by. Most of the churches here are beginning to eliminate the artificial manger scenes.
 
Is having a picture of your spouse also idol worship? :ehh:

Anyway, wasn’t this topic originally about the second judgment? Maybe we should make another topic about images.
 
CTA1967 said:
Is having a picture of your spouse also idol worship? :ehh:

Anyway, wasn’t this topic originally about the second judgment? Maybe we should make another topic about images.
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If I have a wife, then she would not be divine…Although I would treat her as if she were…

I agree about getting back on topic. I am trying to answer quite a few people on two different threads and already I am getting the wrong answers on the wrong thread…so for right now I think I’ll take a swim before dinner and try to catch up after I watch some of the olympics. 👍
 
Old_Scholar said:
It’s always strange for me when I have to relate history to catholics who don’t seem to know very much about it.

Although art is very important to us mere humans, the church council of 754 deemed it was necessary to sacrifice art to the purity of religion. It was necessary for a council to make a decision against image-worship in the church as it was considered to be a pagan and anti-Christian practice and the abolition of it was necessary to avoid leading Christians into temptation.

Therefore, the Iconclastic Ecumenical Council of 754 held in Constantinople made the following decisions as I have given excerps below:

The holy and Ecumenical synod, which by the grace of God and most pious command of the God-beloved and orthodox Emperors, Constantine and Leo,(2) now assembled in the imperial residence city, in the temple of the holy and inviolate Mother of God and Virgin Mary, surnamed in Blachernae, have decreed as follows:

… snip…

It surely seems the early church didn’t think so much of those images… I guess this is another of those “truths” that was changed back by some past group of men or of some ‘pope.’
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You’ve listed this as two ways:
the Iconclastic Ecumenical Council of 754 held in Constantinople (It seems to be your words, here).

and

the holy and Ecumenical synod, which by the grace of God and most pious command of the God-beloved and orthodox Emperors, Constantine and Leo,There is a difference between Ecumenical Council and Ecumenical Synod, and I think that will shed light on the problem. The Church is Constantinople had a problem with icons in their local church. I don’t remember it all, but I believe it came from the conversion of the local people from pagan idols to Roman Catholicism. So, in an effort to refrain from looking like just “another one of the various churches who worship idols”, the local Church felt the need to restrict the use of idols. This ban was lifted when it was no longer necessary, but the whole time, the ban was only on the local Church.

You’ll see a similar scenario with the Church of Corinth and women covering their heads at Church. This was only particular to Corinth and it had something to do with the over 1000 women who were temple prostitutes in Corinth cutting their hair. To prevent scandal, the St. Paul asked women to cover their heads, so they wouldn’t be misconstrued with these prostitues. I may be wrong on some of the particulars of this incident, but I believe the point I was trying to make is shown.

Addendum:
I see that my answer differs from another. I may be mixing my wires on this one, so I’ll check on it later, unless I get too caught up with the Olympics! 😉
 
Old_Scholar said:
You can start with the worship of images; Mariolarty; Queen of Heaven; purgatory, etc. There are more…
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  • Who worships images?
  • Isn’t Mary the Queen of Heaven - what makes you think she’s not?
  • Mariolatry? Who worships Mary?
  • Purgatory? How is Purgatory a pagan rite?
 
Old_Scholar said:
As long as you don’t have an image of a human on that cross I have no problems with what you do, except the Hail Mary’s. We are to pray to God only.
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Isn’t the Hail Mary rather Scriptural? How is it worship to simply ask someone to pray for you.

You, OS, can claim this is incorrect doctrine, but can you say this is worship?
 
Old_Scholar said:
I am not judging them…Scripture does that. There is only one way to God and that’s through Jesus Christ. No other way will get you there. It doesn’t matter if you’re Jewish or whatever. That’s the only way…
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When you claim that I am re-crucifying Christ simply by hanging up a Crucifix, and then you say its your personal opinion, that sounds suspiciously like judgment to us.
 
Old_Scholar said:
Even if we have to have a ‘graven image’ on it?
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What did the Israelites have to do to be freed from the bite of the Serpents in the desert?

Why did Christ say this was a Type of Him?

Why does Paul say in Galation 3:1 - O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
 
NotWorthy said:
  • Who worships images?
  • Isn’t Mary the Queen of Heaven - what makes you think she’s not?
  • Mariolatry? Who worships Mary?
  • Purgatory? How is Purgatory a pagan rite?
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What makes you think Mary* is *Queen of Heaven? There is nothing to substantiate that. She isn’t in heaven for one thing. Maybe at the resurrection she may get a place of honor but she is just like all the rest of the dead—in the grave.

Don’t you pray to Mary? The pope does…We are instructed to pray only to God. To pray to Mary is to make her equal to God and that just isn’t true.

The pagan ritual of purgatory, was unknown to the true Christian church in the first five centuries. The doctrine of purgatory was not tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church until the days of Gregory in the Sixth century. Check your history. As soon as pope Gregory was known to favor this wild, pagan fiction, every monk’s cell began to tears with visions, apparitions, and miraculous disclosures—all designed to give a divine sanction to the purgatory of the heathen.

Pope Adrian confessed that there was no mention of it in the Scripture, or in the writings of the fathers. The Greeks don’t believe in purgatory until this day, neither do any Protestants and neither did the early church. It was just another invention of man.

Purgatory was finally established at the council of Florence in 1430 and because of the power of the priests, it was sustained by the weight of the priesthood and brought in immeasurable revenues into the Pope’s treasures. It finally led to indulgences, a very dark day for all Catholics. Purgatory is just one of those things made by man and can’t be substantiated by Scripture.
 
NotWorthy said:
The Torah prevents the worship of these graven images. If it forbid the making of it, then God caused Moses and Solomon to sin many times over.
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Do Roman Catholics bow to the image of Mary or to the cross with Christ on it? How can you say they are not graven images. No one knows what God looks like or Jesus Christ.
 
Old_Scholar said:
What makes you think Mary* is *Queen of Heaven? There is nothing to substantiate that. She isn’t in heaven for one thing. Maybe at the resurrection she may get a place of honor but she is just like all the rest of the dead—in the grave.
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Mary is the Queen Mother, OS. Read up on your Scriptures regarding the Gebira and it will become clear as day to you.
Don’t you pray to Mary? The pope does…We are instructed to pray only to God. To pray to Mary is to make her equal to God and that just isn’t true.
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Like the Pope, I ask Mary to pray for me.
The pagan ritual of purgatory, was unknown to the true Christian church in the first five centuries. The doctrine of purgatory was not tolerated in the Roman Catholic Church until the days of Gregory in the Sixth century. Check your history. As soon as pope Gregory was known to favor this wild, pagan fiction, every monk’s cell began to tears with visions, apparitions, and miraculous disclosures—all designed to give a divine sanction to the purgatory of the heathen.
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Who condemned the pagan doctrine of Purgatory prior to Pope Gregory?
Pope Adrian confessed that there was no mention of it in the Scripture, or in the writings of the fathers. The Greeks don’t believe in purgatory until this day, neither do any Protestants and neither did the early church. It was just another invention of man.
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It was brought to light in Maccabees. The Jews prayed for the dead. Why is that, OS?
Purgatory was finally established at the council of Florence in 1430 and because of the power of the priests, it was sustained by the weight of the priesthood and brought in immeasurable revenues into the Pope’s treasures. It finally led to indulgences, a very dark day for all Catholics. Purgatory is just one of those things made by man and can’t be substantiated by Scripture.
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Wrong. At the Council of Florence, the long-standing teaching on Purgatory was explained further, maybe, but not “established”. You wouldn’t be cutting and pasting here, OS, would you? If I googled this quote, would I come up with something? Because this doesn’t sound like your rhetoric.
 
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