Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

[NotWorthy]

How would you define ‘graven images.’?

I’d call it a statue or idol that is converted into a God.

The Serpent in the Desert was not a graven image until it became Nahushtan. It certainly wasn’t sinful for Moses to have it carved out.

 

[NotWorthy]

As for the dollar, that is not a religious symbol and has nothing to do with God or Christ. Perhaps some of them display a slogan of 'In God We Trust" on them but if the liberals in congress have their way, even that will disappear.

To hear some Televangelists, one would doubt that money is not something to worship.

 

[Old_Scholar]

I’d call it a statue or idol that is converted into a God.

The Serpent in the Desert was not a graven image until it became Nahushtan. It certainly wasn’t sinful for Moses to have it carved out.

True, it was an instrument of God until people started worshiping it. That’s why it was broken up.

 

[Old_Scholar]

To hear some Televangelists, one would doubt that money is not something to worship.

Amen to that!

 

[NotWorthy]

True, it was an instrument of God until people started worshiping it. That’s why it was broken up.

So, the graven image was not sinful. It was the worship of it that was sinful.

I don’t know of anybody that worships the Crucifix.

But back to this subject, the Israelites gazed on the Serpent in order to be freed from the poison of the serpents. Jesus directly links his Crucifixion with this scenario. Catholics choose to have a Crucifix around in order to always remember this wonderful act of Love. Without the Cross, you wouldn’t have the Resurrection.

Sadly, this is sometimes forgotten among our brothers.

 

[savedsinner]

I’m sure the karate lesson is not in a religious setting.

What you actually said was: “I bow all the time in reverence for Christ’s Sacrifice. I bow to Mary from time to time because I am reminded of her great love for Christ and His Church.”

I will accept your answer, however I do not feel it would be necessary to bow to her in order to show respect. That shows worship.

I read in the bible that Solomon was wise, but obviously not as wise as you.
He should have consulted you before he “worshiped” Bathsheba.
Maybe that was the start of his fall from grace.

“So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. Then she said, ‘I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.’ And the king said to her, ‘Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you’” (1 Kgs. 2:19–20).

 

[Old_Scholar]

So, the graven image was not sinful. It was the worship of it that was sinful.

I don’t know of anybody that worships the Crucifix.

But back to this subject, the Israelites gazed on the Serpent in order to be freed from the poison of the serpents. Jesus directly links his Crucifixion with this scenario. Catholics choose to have a Crucifix around in order to always remember this wonderful act of Love. Without the Cross, you wouldn’t have the Resurrection.

Sadly, this is sometimes forgotten among our brothers.

Just remember the pole did not become a graven image. It was destroyed because it was being worshiped *as *a graven image.

How does Jesus link His crucifix with the serpent pole? Jesus would not like having an image of Him on a cross I don’t believe. I don’t have any problem remembering the cross and there isn’t a crucifix around my neck or in my home or in my church. How could a Christian forget?

 

[NotWorthy]

Just remember the pole did not become a graven image. It was destroyed because it was being worshiped *as *a graven image.

I’m pretty sure I mentioned that it was the worship of the pole that was sinful. The creation of the graven image came from God. One would assume from this, that it is not the making of graven images that is sinful, but the worship of them.

How does Jesus link His crucifix with the serpent pole? Jesus would not like having an image of Him on a cross I don’t believe.

But that’s what He says in John’s Gospel. He directly relates himself to a serpent on a pole. Just as gazing on the serpent brought comfort to the Israelites, gazing on Jesus on the Crucifix brings comfort to me. For I know that He did that for me.

I don’t have any problem remembering the cross and there isn’t a crucifix around my neck or in my home or in my church. How could a Christian forget?

As I mentioned before, all too often Christians do forget His sacrifice. Those that have molded Jesus into this “personal friend” image that has evolved in recent times. You know, the “Jesus is my Home Boy” mentality.

 

[elts1956]

That type of greeting is a ‘culture’ thing and is not done in a religious setting. I don’t believe they pray to each other either…

Then that is why we bow our heads, or nod to the statues of Mary and the Saints. Personally, I don’t do ether, just a hello from the heart. It’s a Catholic Culture thing.

 

[elts1956]

That type of greeting is a ‘culture’ thing and is not done in a religious setting. I don’t believe they pray to each other either…

How would you define ‘graven images.’?

God wants us to worship Him. He doesn’t want us making carvings in wood or stone to worship. It’s ok if there is a cross on your bible or on your church, that is a reminder. It’s a symbol. It isn’t ok if you worship that cross. You only worship God.

The Second Commandment

“Thou shalt not make for thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.”

It is clear that his commandment forbids creation of any substitutes for God. That includes worship of any kind of idols, physical or imaginary. Even more subtle forms of idolatry which persist among those who would consider any literal worship of idols ludicrous.

The spirit of the second commandment forbids worship of anything or regard of anything more than God. When you consider some object something to which you declare all your thoughts, time and energies to, then that object becomes an idol.

All of God’s commandments have a purpose. They are for our good. They are a blessing to us and a benefit to mankind. They define the relationships that produce respect and stability within any society and when we openly disobey them, what does that say about us? We should look to the commandments as our standard for behavior, not develop ways to circumvent them.

I don’t understand why you cannot understand we are NOT WORSHIPING the image. Just as we use a picture of a loved one (an image, graven?) to remind us of that person, so we have statues, pictures etc. to remind us of Christ, His mother and His saints only to remind us that God and His elect are here for us.

 

[Old_Scholar]

I don’t understand why you cannot understand we are NOT WORSHIPING the image. Just as we use a picture of a loved one (an image, graven?) to remind us of that person, so we have statues, pictures etc. to remind us of Christ, His mother and His saints only to remind us that God and His elect are here for us.

But God said “thou shalt not make any graven image…”

That’s what I am talking about. He wasn’t talking of pictures, etc. of family and others, just images of those in heaven and in the earth. I don’t have any problem with pictures but when it comes to a statue, etc. than that’s what I call a ‘graven image.’

Wouldn’t it be great if we could talk of things we do agree on? But we still must talk of those things on which we disagree. One of us has to be wrong…

 

[Old_Scholar]

We started out discussing two judgments. I maintain there is only one judgment taught in the Scriptures and that will occur after the resurrection. I have yet to see any valid answer to that. Some one listed what the church taught but that is in conflict with what Scripture teaches.

For example, most pastors say that when one dies, if he is a believer, then the spirit returns to Christ who gave it. That sounds fine but the Scriptures don’t say that only the spirit of believers go to Christ, but that when one dies, the spirit returns to Christ. There is no judgment involved there. It would seem *all *spirits return to Christ. He will place them properly at the judgment.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

But God said “thou shalt not make any graven image…”

That’s what I am talking about. He wasn’t talking of pictures, etc. of family and others, just images of those in heaven and in the earth. I don’t have any problem with pictures but when it comes to a statue, etc. than that’s what I call a ‘graven image.’

Wouldn’t it be great if we could talk of things we do agree on? But we still must talk of those things on which we disagree. One of us has to be wrong…

Instructions for constructing the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 37:1-9):

[1] Bez’alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.
[2] And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it.
[3] And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side.
[4] And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold,
[5] and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.
[6] And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.
[7] And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them,
[8] one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends.
[9] The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.

They didn’t worship the images of the cherubim, that’s the difference. Just like we don’t worship statues of saints or the Virgin Mary. See … it’s in Scripture.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Instructions for constructing the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 37:1-9):

[1] Bez’alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.
[2] And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it.
[3] And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side.
[4] And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold,
[5] and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.
[6] And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.
[7] And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them,
[8] one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends.
[9] The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.

They didn’t worship the images of the cherubim, that’s the difference. Just like we don’t worship statues of saints or the Virgin Mary. See … it’s in Scripture.

This would not qualify an a ‘graven image either.’ You are correct here. No one could worship that. but you bow to a statue of Mary and Christ on a crucifix. That’s worship.

 

[elts1956]

But God said “thou shalt not make any graven image…”

That’s what I am talking about. He wasn’t talking of pictures, etc. of family and others, just images of those in heaven and in the earth. I don’t have any problem with pictures but when it comes to a statue, etc. than that’s what I call a ‘graven image.’

Wouldn’t it be great if we could talk of things we do agree on? But we still must talk of those things on which we disagree. One of us has to be wrong…

I still think it is that “culture” thing. When my husband, who is not Catholic, and I started dating he said he thought we Catholics worshipped images. Well, we have been married almost 45 years and I haven’t expected a statue to answer any prayers yet, and hubby now understands that, I think. But not being a member of the Catholic “culture” who knows?

I do think our having statues etc. in our churches is a wonderful thing, but I can see why you could misunderstand the meaning behind it. We do not worship Re, Osiris, Hathor, Bastet, or any of those other creatures. So I don’t believe what we do is idol worship. It is the intention behind our prayers and reverence we give (beyond ) that concrete representation that make a difference.

What would you like to talk about that we can agree on? As Frasier says, “I’m listening”.

 

[elts1956]

But God said “thou shalt not make any graven image…”

That’s what I am talking about. He wasn’t talking of pictures, etc. of family and others, just images of those in heaven and in the earth. I don’t have any problem with pictures but when it comes to a statue, etc. than that’s what I call a ‘graven image.’

Wouldn’t it be great if we could talk of things we do agree on? But we still must talk of those things on which we disagree. One of us has to be wrong…

This would not qualify an a ‘graven image either.’ You are correct here. No one could worship that. but you bow to a statue of Mary and Christ on a crucifix. That’s worship.

Nope, that’s reverence beyond the images for the actual beings of Mary and Christ. We don’t believe Christ or Mary are actually there except in our hearts and minds.

 

[colliric]

I believe they is only really one Judgement for each of us. We recieve it after our death when we meet Jesus. I believe the Second general Judgement is perhaps reserved for those that are still here at the time when the entire world finishes, which of cause could include us today.

 

[colliric]

Nope, that’s reverence beyond the images for the actual beings of Mary and Christ. We don’t believe Christ or Mary are actually there.

yes,

We understand they are with us spiritually, as is the Holy Spirit, but they are NOT there in a physical sense, they are NOT only in the one spot and are most definatly NOT the statue or picture itself.

 

[NotWorthy]

This would not qualify an a ‘graven image either.’ You are correct here. No one could worship that. but you bow to a statue of Mary and Christ on a crucifix. That’s worship.

I"m pretty sure I know who I worship and who I don’t. But if I get confused, I’ll come to you, OS, for you seem to be an expert on what’s in other people’s hearts.

 

[MDK]

This would not qualify an a ‘graven image either.’ You are correct here. No one could worship that. but you bow to a statue of Mary and Christ on a crucifix. That’s worship.

Yours is a false statement as written. You have absolutely no way of knowing what is in their hearts. I ask you then, **if you kneel with a Bible in your hands, does it mean you are automatically considered by God to be worshiping the Bible? **

If one treats the statue of Mary or Jesus as their god, then that’s idolatry. For further clarification, if one worships the actual person of Mary as god, then that’s idolatry. Both of these sentences are in keeping with Catholic teaching.

If one kneels before a statue of Mary or Jesus and regards the statue as a reminder or visual aid of our Heavenly family while praying to the person of Mary or Jesus, then were is the problem? God knows what is in one’s heart, and their reason for kneeling or bowing.