Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

[marieanne]

I sooooooo want to get into this discussion!
I’m having a problem with this forum format, however. I belong to some other forums on Health and End Times…I’m even a moderator at one.
But, this one is confusing. I don’t know where and how to post new topic or I don’t know if anyone has responded to a post I made.
Can anyone help? Maybe you could PM me so I’ll be sure to see it?
Thanks and God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie
Some of us here are Catholics. OS is not, he is a Lutheran. It is unfair to expect him to hold Catholic beliefs. In these discussions it seems to me that people are not open to arguments and fresh thinking, but are locked into previous views. This is not really productive, and does not aid learning.

NoelFlitz, I thank you for you response but I think you misunderstand what I was saying, or I was not being clear enough. While I agree that he is not Catholic and while i understand he does not agree with our faith, that is fine. But this is only what i am saying, He has not grasp the concept nor understands the Catholic Faith on our Level. Now he says he knows the faith better than Catholics. I am just saying he does not understand our faith. I understand he has another faith, and i have no problem with that. But all im saying is he really doesnt understand OUR FAITH. Which is what he claims. He does not see our faith in the true light is all. He says things about our faith which is either not true, or turns things around to look different than what they really are. But my point is he does not KNOW the Catholic faith, but he claims to know it better than other Catholics, and from what he has presented on this thread I must disagree with him. He feels he knows it, but he is wrong. Now I am not to Judge him on what he believes or doesnt believe. But he wont except that his way of seeing our faith is just pure wrong. He DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OUR FAITH. Thats really my big point. Now I understand that he is not Catholic, but how can I as a Catholic argue with a Protestant what they do and dont believe when i am not of their faith. Now to disagree with what they do or dont do, now thats a discussion, and a good one. Why they do what they do, or why they dont. But he is saying we do things we dont. And to claim to know someones faith, you would not do that. Now if he disagreed with something we did okay. Hes learning. But hes saying false things. Which proves he does not know our faith.

 

[CTA1967]

Also, his comments could disturb the faith of Catholics who are just glancing through this thread, so we should do our best to refute his arguments.

 

[po18guy]

NoelFlitz, I thank you for you response but I think you misunderstand what I was saying, or I was not being clear enough. While I agree that he is not Catholic and while i understand he does not agree with our faith, that is fine. But this is only what i am saying, He has not grasp the concept nor understands the Catholic Faith on our Level. Now he says he knows the faith better than Catholics. I am just saying he does not understand our faith. I understand he has another faith, and i have no problem with that. But all im saying is he really doesnt understand OUR FAITH. Which is what he claims. He does not see our faith in the true light is all. He says things about our faith which is either not true, or turns things around to look different than what they really are. But my point is he does not KNOW the Catholic faith, but he claims to know it better than other Catholics, and from what he has presented on this thread I must disagree with him. He feels he knows it, but he is wrong. Now I am not to Judge him on what he believes or doesnt believe. But he wont except that his way of seeing our faith is just pure wrong. He DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OUR FAITH. Thats really my big point. Now I understand that he is not Catholic, but how can I as a Catholic argue with a Protestant what they do and dont believe when i am not of their faith. Now to disagree with what they do or dont do, now thats a discussion, and a good one. Why they do what they do, or why they dont. But he is saying we do things we dont. And to claim to know someones faith, you would not do that. Now if he disagreed with something we did okay. Hes learning. But hes saying false things. Which proves he does not know our faith.

Amen! Beware of self-proclaimed “scholars”. He has absolutely no more authority to interpret scripture than any of us. He appears to condescend and comes across as arrogant. This is not unusual, unfortunately.

He is so totally and abjectly blinded to the whole truth by the FALSE, man-made doctrine of sola scriptura, that only the Holy Spirit may teach him from here on.

Blind? Yes! Sola scriptura is nowhere mentioned, authorized, spoken of or advocated in the very same bible that he restricts himself to. All we can do is pray for him. Nothing else will ever suffice.

 

[MDK]

Also, his comments could disturb the faith of Catholics who are just glancing through this thread, so we should do our best to refute his arguments.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. This is precisely one of his main motivations for being here, and the falsehoods he brings must continue to be refuted. Can you imagine the look on the faces of people like him when they finally find out (perhaps after death) that they have simply been a tool of the evil one in spreading deception. I’m not ready to go so far as to claim that he really knows he’s being a tool of the evil one.

 

[NoelFitz]

MDK
Thanks!
You wrote:

There is no true teaching in Lutheranism that isn’t in Catholicism. However, there are many false teachings in Lutheranism that are not in Catholicism.

I agree with you.

Protestants and Catholics share so much in commom. God exists and Jesus is Lord.

We can learn from each other. Many things in the Bible are open to discussion and not articles of faith. I find I agree with some of what OS writes.

 

[NoelFitz]

Po18guy

Thanks for your reply.

You wrote:

Fresh thinking" (i.e. “a different gospel”) is from the evil one!

As is in Porgy and Bess “it ain’t necessarily so”.

From Vat II in the Church there is fresh thinking. Since Lumen Gentium the focus is on the Church as the people of God, rather than the mystical body of Christ.

I have been reading an article that considers the Church as the bride of Christ. This emphasis is new and encouraging.

 

[po18guy]

MDK
Thanks!
You wrote:
I agree with you.
Protestants and Catholics share so much in commom. God exists and Jesus is Lord.
We can learn from each other. Many things in the Bible are open to discussion and not articles of faith. I find I agree with some of what OS writes.

But, remember that he can lead us either straight, or off the path. There is at least some truth in every Christian church. Only one, the Catholic, has retained the fulness. All who split off from her took most of her teachings. Those who split off from them took most of those teachings, and so on and so on. FF 500 years. What’s left of the truth? A pale image, infused with man’s teachings.

The fulness of truth resides strictly within the church Christ founded. If we do not defend her, with teeth bared at times, the truth loses. I will not answer to Christ for compromise.

 

[po18guy]

Po18guy

Thanks for your reply.

You wrote:

As is in Porgy and Bess “it ain’t necessarily so”.

From Vat II in the Church there is fresh thinking. Since Lumen Gentium the focus is on the Church as the people of God, rather than the mystical body of Christ.

I have been reading an article that considers the Church as the bride of Christ. This emphasis is new and encouraging.

A fresh look at the same Gospel. Praise God! Times have changed - the Gospel has not. It may just be semantics, my brother. What I fret about is the creep of the world into the church, exactly the opposite of our true mission. We are called to change the world, not vice versa.

Christ’s peace.

 

[NoelFitz]

Rinnie
You wrote:

He (OS) DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OUR FAITH.

This is patently obvious.

However he does not really want to listen and be convinced, no more than I want to become a Lutheran.

I really do not think he will be convinced by either rational arguments or by abuse.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie
You wrote:

This is patently obvious.

However he does not really want to listen and be convinced, no more than I want to become a Lutheran.

I really do not think he will be convinced by either rational arguments or by abuse.

Exactly, And I agree with you 100%. Now if I came off as abusive I apologize I never ever meant to. But that was my point pages ago, he does not want to hear the truth about our faith he just wants to tear it apart. The only difference is maybe your way of saying it was better than mine, but this is what i saw days ago. Now if there were not people in this world that wanted to hear the truth, I would not have a problem. But there are people who do, and he misrepresents our Church.

But I have given up trying to convince him because he does not want to hear the truth according to the Catholic Faith, and again thats okay, but we have to at least TRY to correct him when he talks falsely about our faith. Thats my point.

We do not worship idols.

It is not the Catholic Church that put Jesus on the Cross, it was all of us with our sins that put Jesus on the Cross.

But we dont have him on there for some sick reason. Again to a Catholic at least in my book a cross without Jesus is just that a cross. Empty. But with Jesus on it, it doesnt make me think of sick things, I see love, and how he suffered for all of us.

Its just no fair to judge other Religions, we never judged his. We just try as hard as we can to defend our faith, and is someone lies about it we try to set them straight. Thats all.

 

[MDK]

MDK
Thanks!
You wrote:

There is no true teaching in Lutheranism that isn’t in Catholicism. However, there are many false teachings in Lutheranism that are not in Catholicism.

What I’ve learned from him is where the enemies of the Church like to attack, and their methods. I really can’t say that he’s been helpful for me other than that. You can’t say that he’s some innocent friend of the Church. In like manner, we can learn something of Satan’s methods, but it’s nothing I want to emulate, rather want to certainly not only avoid, but also be better prepared and be ready to defend the Truth.

The Lutheran Church was a rip off of the Catholic Church, but with the added twists of trying to deny the Catholic Church as the true Church. There are certain similarities that exist right before the go off the rails… Take the Eucharist for instance, Lutherans claim the real presence, but then the twist is it’s Consubstantiation and not Transubstantiation… there is a huge difference there. They believe in the idea of a final authority when interpreting Scriptures, i.e. a pope, with the twist that everyone who can read a Bible is a pope. Their priesthood is invalid anyway, so their priests can’t consecrate a host into the Body of Christ any more than any lay Catholic can. They believe in the Apostles, but don’t have Apostolic succession. They believe in the Scriptures, but have thrown out 7 books of the OT.

I commend those who respect Jesus as Lord. However, how much does one really know Jesus if one twists and misinterprets Scriptures? As much truth as one has can be used as stepping stones to come to the fullness of revealed truth in the Catholic Church. ’

If one did come to be friendly and discuss the similarities and common ground and seek the truth and learn all they could about it… this is wonderful and they would be looked upon as a partner in seeking the truth. I don’t believe these friendly and truth-seeking characteristics come anywhere close to describing the behaviors of the individual we are discussing.

 

[NotWorthy]

I sooooooo want to get into this discussion!
I’m having a problem with this forum format, however. I belong to some other forums on Health and End Times…I’m even a moderator at one.
But, this one is confusing. I don’t know where and how to post new topic or I don’t know if anyone has responded to a post I made.
Can anyone help? Maybe you could PM me so I’ll be sure to see it?
Thanks and God Bless

At the top of the thread, you’ll see the Button labeled “Display” with the drop down arrow. It will allow you to display the thread three different ways, one of which is closer to the one you’re looking for.

Good luck and welcome to the Forums!!!

 

[NoelFitz]

Rinnie

I was not referring to you in my posts. I never intended to imply you, or any other individual here, were/was abusive.

You wrote:

We do not worship idols

.

We know that. But telling OS this will not influence his views.

You wrote:

But I have given up trying to convince him because he does not want to hear the truth

That is a wise decision.

But among the writings of OS there are some valid insights…

 

[peary1]

What the… You just restated the query! That’s not an answer! He’s asking WHY it’s “crucifying him again”.

**Is it “Old Scholar” or “Old Codger”? **

 

[NoelFitz]

MDK

Thank you for your reply to me.

One of the principal points OS makes is that in the Catholic Church there are sinners. Few would disagree with this.

The Church is a Holy Church with many unholy members.

Is there really any need to refute him when he repeatedly makes this point?

 

[NoelFitz]

Po18guy

You wrote:

I will not answer to Christ for compromise.

You remind me of what our priest said at Mass some time age.

If we were brought before a tribunal and threatened with martyrdom for our faith, would we be acquitted for lack of evidence?

 

[po18guy]

Po18guy

You wrote:

You remind me of what our priest said at Mass some time age.

If we were brought before a tribunal and threatened with martyrdom for our faith, would we be acquitted for lack of evidence?

I pray there would be enough evidence! Courage, that’s another thing! but it also comes from the Lord.

But, once in that judgment seat (and I have thought a lot about it lately, under the sentence that I am), there are no excuses, no weasel words, no Mulligans.

As Father John Corapi so powerfully states: “You and I, forever, will be in either heaven, or hell. Period” It surely motivates me!

Christ’s peace.

 

[MDK]

MDK

Thank you for your reply to me.

One of the principal points OS makes is that in the Catholic Church there are sinners. Few would disagree with this.

The Church is a Holy Church with many unholy members.

Is there really any need to refute him when he repeatedly makes this point?

Did you really need him to tell you this, in that you didn’t know this ahead of time? Additionally, is there real decent purpose in repeatedly harping on this? No, as it supports an ulterior motive, which he has. The real purpose of his posts seems to escape you. He presents the facts (sometimes not even facts) in ways which are misleading and falsely denigrating of the Church built by Christ.

For the record, you could have asked many Catholics here, and they would have told you about the Church, but likely in a more constructive way. If you found one of my posts on this, you would have also learned that I have said the Catholic Church is not so much a museum for saints, as a hospital for sinners. This is an invitation to the Church, which can heal you. It’s not in the mode of a constant denigration of the Church.

I continue to say that he’s not been valuable to me, except to know our enemy… and he’s behaved as such, not something I have done for him or to him. That he has a few facts is okay, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. One should not use facts in an attempt to falsely portray the Church as something it is not.

 

[peary1]

You can start with the worship of images; Mariolarty; Queen of Heaven; purgatory, etc. There are more…

**The acceptance of the Corpus as a holy image was in response to Islam.

There are no rites of liturgical worship within the Catholic Church having to do with the worship of images.

Mariology is a theological study of the role of Mary in salvation history and has its roots and foundation within the Bible. There is no such thing called ‘mariolatry’.

Queen of Heaven is a title given to Mary from the Book of Revelation 12:1.

The purification of a soul after death comes directly from Judaism and remained in the Church since its earliest days, since the early Christians were Jews.**