J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Your saying that Strong’s translates that word from hate to “love less”??
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J
James_S_Saint
Guest
NAB => Luke 14:26 “If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”
Douay-Rheims => Luke 14:26 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
This is actually a Catholic publication which disqualifies it as debate material for this issue, but even it substantiates the word “hate”.
Hmm…
Douay-Rheims => Luke 14:26 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
This is actually a Catholic publication which disqualifies it as debate material for this issue, but even it substantiates the word “hate”.
Hmm…
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Belloc_Fan
Guest
It’s because *miseō *literally means “hate.” What we have is an accurate-to-the-word translation that risks losing the original meaning. And as for translation, I think it’s because it would be pretty disingenuous to translate *miseō * as “hate” in certain passages (where it literally means “hate”) and as “love more” in other passages. The text is being translated accurately, and hopefully, some sort of helpful footnote is provided explaining the use of *miseō *as a comparative. NAB provides a helpful enough footnote, I’m not sure about the others.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Just a quick question of similar, but not nearly so condemning nature;
How does the Catholic interpret Jesus’ response as to when to pray? He says, “Always”. What does that mean to the Catholic?
How does the Catholic interpret Jesus’ response as to when to pray? He says, “Always”. What does that mean to the Catholic?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
That your every act must be an act of prayer. You can never leave God’s presence, and being (willingly) in God’s presence is prayer.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
Now there is a good answer
You didn’t try to change the word into “often” just to meet practical concerns.
Care to respond to the more concerning question?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I would say that, as the passage tells us to hate our own lives, it is clearly not referring to our godly nature, but our sinful nature. The life that participates in God is not to be hated, but to be loved (love your neighbor as you love yourself). Therefore, we are to hate our mother and father, etc, insofar as they are expressing their sinful nature. We are to love their true selves, but we are to battle against those things they desire that are not reconcilable to God.Care to respond to the more concerning question?
For example, a friend of mine decided to live a life as a single, consecrated monk (interestingly, by the way, in an *ecumenical *brotherhood). His mother, at first, was very much against the whole thing. She would try and “reel him back in” to pursue marriage and family with bonds of love. But he had to stand very firmly against these tendencies in her – in effect, try to starve them out – so that he could love her in truth. (If he hadn’t “hated” her in this way, he would have ended up resenting her, which is far worse.)
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James_S_Saint
Guest
I think it is reasonable to accept that he wasn’t referring to hating oneself, but rather the life that one is immersed in.
But of course, if that is the case, then he really was meaning “hate” as in “loathe”.
As far as family, you are still saying as the others, that he didn’t really mean “hate”.
Can I propose that just as some people have trouble understanding how you can “pray always” and thus are tempted to alter the meaning of “always”, with this word “hate”, just as with that word “always”, he really did mean hate. But how it fits, just as with the word “always”, merely requires a higher understanding?
But if no Catholic understands, I have an issue.
But of course, if that is the case, then he really was meaning “hate” as in “loathe”.
As far as family, you are still saying as the others, that he didn’t really mean “hate”.
Can I propose that just as some people have trouble understanding how you can “pray always” and thus are tempted to alter the meaning of “always”, with this word “hate”, just as with that word “always”, he really did mean hate. But how it fits, just as with the word “always”, merely requires a higher understanding?
But if no Catholic understands, I have an issue.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
The board doesn’t include all Catholics. Nor can we accept, on your word, that you have the correct understanding. I’m curious as to what your understanding is, though.But if no Catholic understands, I have an issue.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
Yes, I know that this forum is a very small representation of Catholic. 
I have not asked anyone to accept any change, on my word or for any other reason (why does this keep coming up??
)
I have not asked anyone to accept any change, on my word or for any other reason (why does this keep coming up??
)
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I’m not saying you wanted to change us. I was just talking about your interpretation of the Scripture passage.Yes, I know that this forum is a very small representation of Catholic.
I have not asked anyone to accept any change, on my word or for any other reason (why does this keep coming up??
You have clearly said that you know what it means. I’m just saying that we need to try that claim ourselves, “testing the spirits”, so to speak. It’s easy to get the feeling that you’re quizzing us, but I’m not exactly sure *why *you’re quizzing us.
If you give us a true interpretation of the Scripture, it will be clear enough who is a true follower of Christ, by how we respond to it. “He who has ears, let him hear.” (It seems to be that that is your intention, to discern if we are followers?) Since you showed up here, James, I’ve felt that this “encounter” would be a good thing for everyone involved. But this whole process is frustrating at times, because the computer is such an inferior mode of communication. Many things that could be helpful just come out sounding callous, and – in a delicate thing like ecumenical dialogue – this can lead to full-scale misunderstanding.
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Writer
Guest
It’s an example of hyperbolic language to make a point and to get through the thick heads of his listeners (and all of us today), and your misunderstanding is what happens when you take a passage so far from its context. Why would Christ be opposing the Fourth Commandment (Fifth, according to some Protestants). Here’s what the CCC says regarding this important commandment.
"ARTICLE 4
THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT
Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.4
He was obedient to them.5
The Lord Jesus himself recalled the force of this "commandment of God."6 The Apostle teaches: “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ‘Honor your father and mother,’ (This is the first commandment with a promise.) 'that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.”'7
2197 The fourth commandment opens the second table of the Decalogue. It shows us the order of charity. God has willed that, after him, we should honor our parents to whom we owe life and who have handed on to us the knowledge of God. We are obliged to honor and respect all those whom God, for our good, has vested with his authority.
2198 This commandment is expressed in positive terms of duties to be fulfilled. It introduces the subsequent commandments which are concerned with particular respect for life, marriage, earthly goods, and speech. It constitutes one of the foundations of the social doctrine of the Church.
2199 The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.
This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons."
To always take a purely literal view of the Bible is to run into any number of serious problems: the intent is what you should be seeking. Besides losing an important glimpse of the meaning, literal interpretation often takes away some of the beauty and depth of the Scriptures. Revelation is a great example. As Father Vawter pointed out in “Revelation, A Divine Hope,” there are multiple levels of meaning with regards to Revelation. If you’re a literalist, you will miss all of this. You see the wave but you miss the ocean, so to speak.
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Ghosty
Guest
James S Saint: Another interpretive key in finding the original intent is to look at Christ’s other actions and sayings. Did He turn away Martha and Mary for loving their brother Lazarus, or did He weep in sorrow when they told Him Lazarus had died? In His parable of the Prodigal Son, did He say that the son who hated his father was in the right, or did the parable finish with the son having a change of heart and returning to his loving family? Lastly, did Christ turn away His own mother on the Cross, or did He give her over to the care of His most beloved disciple?
Since we know Christ did not condone your interpretation of the teaching “hate your mother and father”, and since we know that the word used has many nuances, we must conclude that your interpretation is wrong.
Peace and God bless!
Since we know Christ did not condone your interpretation of the teaching “hate your mother and father”, and since we know that the word used has many nuances, we must conclude that your interpretation is wrong.
Peace and God bless!
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
He hasn’t given his interpretation yet.
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buffalo
Guest
Luke Chapter 14
25 And there went great multitudes with him. And turning, he said to them: 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Hate not, etc… The law of Christ does not allow us to hate even our enemies, much less our parents: but the meaning of the text is, that we must be in that disposition of soul, as to be willing to renounce, and part with every thing, how near or dear soever it may be to us, that would keep us from following Christ.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
Perhaps I have mistaken where I am, but I thought that this was an “apologist forum” where we, the visitors, are given the opportunity to get our concerning questions about Catholicism answered by actual Catholics (rather than presume from other sources).
By consequence, often the Catholic gets to see what the visitor believes, but that is not the purpose here.
I avoid preaching or attempting to teach anything that I suspect might even accidentally cause a change that I have not verified to be in the “right” direction. Thus I ASK, but hesitate to PROVE (hence the dismissal to “shred Thomas”). I thought I made it clear that to cast a stranger into such a challenge was hardly wise and gave me pause.
I am “quizzing” you for only the purpose of being able to decide what course of action would suit everyone’s true need. (Do I really need to become Catholic? Would the Catholics really be better off without me? Should I expect valid answers from Catholic members? Is there any good to be found here? Is there any actual good I could do here?) Observation is often best served by “testing” or “prodding” merely to discover what is under the surface before presuming based on appearances.
Granted such testing might be taken as offensive, but that is also a part of the testing necessary to reveal the truth of who I am really talking to.
I consider it a greater offense to be offended than to offend. I hold myself to that standard as well.
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James_S_Saint
Guest
Thank you Writer, well said.
But I must take this reply as only half of the potential meaning/intention to be gained by that particular conundrum. And thus still lacking proof that Church authorities have truly been given Jesus’ authority - an important element to not take lightly.
I hadn’t missed the views that have been presented so far.
He really did mean “loathe” in that context despite the mysterious contradiction that it appears to present.
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
This is but more presumption (the seed of ALL sin).
I am looking for that “Home Run!” I am finding “Fly Balls” and seeds to sin.
Can you find anything that doesn’t begin with, “So as to make sense to us, he must have meant…”?
J
James_S_Saint
Guest
Just food for thought;
It is my view, there is not one single passage, word, letter, “dot” or “tittle” written in the Bible that is not revelation. How could it be “Holy” if this were not so?
Even an English translation is of this same nature, although the “whole” aspect of “Holy” might certainly be lacking as well as the “purity” aspect. Yet still, despite such important concerns, every tiniest detail is no less than revelation.
Nothing at all has ever been written in any Scripture that is not revelation. What is revealed by this passage using such a strong word that splashes in the face of that “Fourth commandment”?
It is my view, there is not one single passage, word, letter, “dot” or “tittle” written in the Bible that is not revelation. How could it be “Holy” if this were not so?
Even an English translation is of this same nature, although the “whole” aspect of “Holy” might certainly be lacking as well as the “purity” aspect. Yet still, despite such important concerns, every tiniest detail is no less than revelation.
Nothing at all has ever been written in any Scripture that is not revelation. What is revealed by this passage using such a strong word that splashes in the face of that “Fourth commandment”?
S
Systratiotes
Guest
You have fallen into the error of pulling a single verse out of Scripture without looking at the context of the passage, the audience, and the whole of Scripture. Entire religious systems have been built this very way. For example; see Matthew 16:18 and you will see the largest “Christian” religion in the world built off of one passage taken out of context.
Read the rest of the context and see if you can figure out the point Jesus is making.
Good luck and God bless!
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