Oklahoma Catholics: Planned Protests for Black Mass?

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Sparkythedog said:
I still don’t understand how someone can defile an omnipotent being. It’s like me mocking the sun by calling it a “jerk” and throwing rocks at it. It’s not going to affect the sun. How much more powerful is Jesus than the sun? Does Jesus become weaker when he is in bread form? Can the satanists trap him in the consecrated host? I really don’t get this part.
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We are not Lutherans…we do not believe that the host can go from bread to Jesus back to bread.
 
CatholicSooner said:
We are not Lutherans…we do not believe that the host can go from bread to Jesus back to bread.
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Are you claiming that it’s impossible for Jesus to choose not to remain in a particular host?

For that matter, if Jesus is omniscient, then he would presumably know in advance which host was destined to be given to a spurious communicant and could just choose not to be transubstaniated (if that’s the right word) in that particular host.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Are you claiming that it’s impossible for Jesus to choose not to remain in a particular host?

For that matter, if Jesus is omniscient, then he would presumably know in advance which host was destined to be given to a spurious communicant and could just choose not to be transubstaniated (if that’s the right word) in that particular host.
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What religion are you?
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Why does that matter?
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It helps to know how much effort I should put into this. If you are a Catholic, i am willing to put more effort into the discussion. On the other hand, if you are an atheist, I am not going to waste my time with someone that seems to be simply looking for an argument. simple really
 
CatholicSooner said:
It helps to know how much effort I should put into this. If you are a Catholic, i am willing to put more effort into the discussion. On the other hand, if you are an atheist, I am not going to waste my time with someone that seems to be simply looking for an argument. simple really
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So if I’m a Catholic we’re having a discussion, but if I’m an atheist we’re having an argument – interesting. What would we be having if I’m a Catholic atheist?
 
cornbread_r2 said:
So if I’m a Catholic we’re having a discussion, but if I’m an atheist we’re having an argument – interesting. What would we be having if I’m a Catholic atheist?
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and this is why I won’t have a discussion with you. All you are doing is trying to argue and create drama. have a good day.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
So if I’m a Catholic we’re having a discussion, but if I’m an atheist we’re having an argument – interesting. What would we be having if I’m a Catholic atheist?
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The assumption is that a Catholic has enough theological knowledge for correction of error if pointed out.

Many atheists display more interest in picking fights because it’s more interesting and fun to mock religion.

Anyway, divine omniscience does not make this event any less sacrilegious or blasphemous.
 
Sparkythedog said:
I still don’t understand how someone can defile an omnipotent being. It’s like me mocking the sun by calling it a “jerk” and throwing rocks at it. It’s not going to affect the sun. How much more powerful is Jesus than the sun? Does Jesus become weaker when he is in bread form? Can the satanists trap him in the consecrated host? I really don’t get this part.
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You have made it very clear that you don’t see why Catholics would consider this a desecration of something sacred. That’s fine: you don’t need to understand why we consider it so. I don’t need to see why a physical book would be considered sacred, or believe that it is so, in order to understand that a Quran burning is offensive and wrong, that it should not be permitted in a civic centre, and that “ignore it” is not an option for Muslims.

Continuing to explain that you personally do not consider the host to be something sacred, and that you yourself do not see why people who consider it sacred should be upset, is like claiming that you personally consider female dogs beautiful creatures and so a woman should be flattered to be compared to one. It is not a lot to ask, in a diverse population, that we be aware of and respect the main things that other groups tell us are sincerely sacred or offensive to them. Your personal views on whether people should consider these things sacred or offensive are completely irrelevant.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
Are you claiming that it’s impossible for Jesus to choose not to remain in a particular host?
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You fail to understand the nature of a consecrated host. Jesus does not simply reside within that host, the host becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, it cannot change back.
cornbread_r2 said:
For that matter, if Jesus is omniscient, then he would presumably know in advance which host was destined to be given to a spurious communicant and could just choose not to be transubstaniated (if that’s the right word) in that particular host.
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Again that is not how it happens. Christ doesn’t say, “I’ll go into that host, and that one, but not that one or that one”. During the consecration, all hosts present on the corporal become the Body and Blood of Christ. So long as the priest is properly ordained, correct form is used, and the priest intends to do what the Church desires, all the hosts are consecrated and transubstantiation occurs.
 
TypesAndShadows said:
You have made it very clear that you don’t see why Catholics would consider this a desecration of something sacred. That’s fine: you don’t need to understand why we consider it so. I don’t need to see why a physical book would be considered sacred, or believe that it is so, in order to understand that a Quran burning is offensive and wrong, that it should not be permitted in a civic centre, and that “ignore it” is not an option for Muslims.

Continuing to explain that you personally do not consider the host to be something sacred, and that you yourself do not see why people who consider it sacred should be upset, is like claiming that you personally consider female dogs beautiful creatures and so a woman should be flattered to be compared to one. It is not a lot to ask, in a diverse population, that we be aware of and respect the main things that other groups tell us are sincerely sacred or offensive to them. Your personal views on whether people should consider these things sacred or offensive are completely irrelevant.
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I apparently have not explained myself well. I am not saying that the host is not sacred or that Catholics should not be offended. I have been saying that making a big protest about it only fuels the fire and gives the event publicity.

When I said that, the respondents claimed that allowing the Black Mass would harm the church. Even, presumably, if it were done in secret as long as they were using a consecrated host.

So now, reread what I wrote. I am asking how a mere human can harm an omnipotent being with a magic ritual. I’m not asking if it hurts your feelings, I want to know how it harms Jesus.
 
Sparkythedog said:
I am asking how a mere human can harm an omnipotent being with a magic ritual. I’m not asking if it hurts your feelings, I want to know how it harms Jesus.
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Christ is not a remote being divorced from his people and humanity can be harmed. There is a battle between good and evil going on. The spread of evil causes souls to turn away from Christ and this hurts Christ.
 
Sparkythedog said:
I apparently have not explained myself well. I am not saying that the host is not sacred or that Catholics should not be offended. I have been saying that making a big protest about it only fuels the fire and gives the event publicity.

When I said that, the respondents claimed that allowing the Black Mass would harm the church. Even, presumably, if it were done in secret as long as they were using a consecrated host.

So now, reread what I wrote. I am asking how a mere human can harm an omnipotent being with a magic ritual. I’m not asking if it hurts your feelings, I want to know how it harms Jesus.
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And this is what I mean.

You do not understand that why it is offensive is because we consider what they are doing to be deliberately harming and humiliating Jesus. That is the thing we believe they are doing when they desecrate the Host. You don’t agree with that, because you do not believe the things that we believe about the Eucharist or about God and Jesus. You do not need to understand or believe the reasons behind it to believe people when they tell you that this is what they understand to be happening.

Telling us that your understanding of how our God works would not be harmed or offend by this action does not make this something we can ignore, because your understanding of how our God works is not our understanding of how our God works. Just as, if you were to tell a Muslim that you think God wouldn’t really be upset by some unbeliever burning a piece of paper with some words on, that wouldn’t change the Muslim’s view of what a Quran is and what it means to desecrate it.
 
Brendan_64 said:
You fail to understand the nature of a consecrated host. Jesus does not simply reside within that host, the host becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, it cannot change back.

Again that is not how it happens. Christ doesn’t say, “I’ll go into that host, and that one, but not that one or that one”. During the consecration, all hosts present on the corporal become the Body and Blood of Christ. So long as the priest is properly ordained, correct form is used, and the priest intends to do what the Church desires, all the hosts are consecrated and transubstantiation occurs.
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I think I understand well enough what’s supposed to be happening at consecration. What I’m not understanding is how the most powerful entity imaginable can be limited in any way, i.e. cannot choose to allow the host to become mere bread again or cannot choose to be transubstantiated in one host, but not another. One might say that, for one reason or another, Jesus permits the desecration to occur, but I cannot see how one could say that Jesus is powerless to stop it – which is what your explanation seems to imply.
 
Perhaps well known Catholic/Christian performers who are scheduled to perform at the OK City Center can be prevailed upon to cancel their concerts…as added pressure on the Civic Center. After all, would any Christian want to perform at a venue that days or weeks earlier hosted satanists? The following Catholic/Christian artists are scheduled to perform after the black mass.

1 Horacio Gutierrez…October 4th
publicaffairs.cua.edu/news/99gutierrez.htm
Horacio Gutiérrez was awarded an honorary doctor of music degree by the Catholic University of America
In accepting his degree, Gutiérrez said CUA has ‘‘indirectly played a most important part in my life,’’ telling the audience that his wife, Patricia Asher, ‘‘is one of your outstanding graduates.’’ And in 1974, he practiced his Carnegie Hall recital program in Ward Hall. The pianist also sits on the board of the Latin American Center for Graduate Studies in Music at the music school.
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  1. Canterbury Choral Society/Dr. Randi Von Ellefson …October 10…Gloria (cubed)
    canterburyokc.com/
 
Sparkythedog said:
I didn’t say it was ok. I think it is ridiculous and juvenile. But the more you guys throw up a stink about it, the more attention, this group gets.

You can’t legally stop them from performing their silly ritual but you can relegate their performance to relative obscurity by not doing their marketing for them. They count on hand wringing christians to stir up controversy, and controversy sells the event. Don’t give them that and they will fade away.
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They will not fade away. These types of events actually make them look even worse.
The satanist movement here in the US really rose because Catholics viewed them just as teenagers.

However, they also unite us. They are making themselves look like such hateful mongers that I wish more attention was given to this event.

If all Christians saw what they actually do at this events they would be on our side. So they unite all Catholics and protestants.

Here is a sample of what they do,

The Black Mass combines various elements:
  • belief in a pagan deity stigmatized by Christians as the Devil,
  • use of the Mass for material ends,
  • and parodies of orthodox Christian ritual.
The Black Mass is a magical ceremony and inversion or parody of the Catholic Mass that was indulged in ostensibly for the purpose of mocking God and worshipping the devil; a rite that was said to involve human sacrifice as well as obscenity and blasphemy of horrific proportions. The origin of the belief in the Black, or Satanic, Mass goes back to medieval magic and witchcraft, yet no one really knows the early history of this magical act, for there exists no single reliable, first-hand description.

That is from their own site… (I don’t want to even give the link) but ppl can do a search on google for black mass and they’ll see the site for their biggest temple in NY.
 
cornbread_r2 said:
I think I understand well enough what’s supposed to be happening at consecration. What I’m not understanding is how the most powerful entity imaginable can be limited in any way, i.e. cannot choose to allow the host to become mere bread again or cannot choose to be transubstantiated in one host, but not another. One might say that, for one reason or another, Jesus permits the desecration to occur, but I cannot see how one could say that Jesus is powerless to stop it – which is what your explanation seems to imply.
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He is not powerless to stop it. However man has been given the gift of free will and God does not intervene to prevent men from exercising this gift. Indeed it is through exercising this gift for good and in the love of God that we achieve unity with Him. You might as well say that God will stop someone from committing sin because He has the power to prevent that person from acting according to his free will. God does not prevent us from acting freely (for good or evil) God does not make slaves of us.
 
angeline15 said:
foxnews.com/us/2014/08/08/satanists-plan-to-stage-black-mass-in-oklahoma-city-sparks-outrage/

I heard this on Catholic relevant radio a few days ago and have added a Rosary decade + St. Michael Prayer daily and am abstaining from meat for the period that the archbishop requested.

Lets all join together against this- I fully believe the Harvard mass was canceled from prayers and fasting!
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I heard about this and was truly shocked. If it were San Francisco or NYC I’d see it happening, but Oklahoma is the middle of the bible belt. I was born and grew up in Ponca City, Oklahoma–and I’d say if the Satanists get in and out of there alive that they better hire extra security. How perfectly ridiculous of them. I think they are just trying to shock people–and they have.
 
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